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Are consoles done in Japan? And what could that mean for the West?

biocat

Member
When I walk into a Tokyo game, I see little reason for Japanese gamers to move onto a PS4 console just yet. The games are not there, or PS3/Vita versions are also available.

Examples:
Dragon Quest Builders PS4/PS3/Vita
Star Ocean 5 PS4/PS3
Ryu ga Gotoku Kiwami PS4/PS3
Ikenie to Yuki no Setsuna PS3/Vita

I don't agree next gen and consoles have been abandoned, but there is less immediate incentive to upgrade. Games like Dark Souls 3 or Final Fantasy XV will likely change that.
 

Mecha

Member
Japan will be fine if they budget for truly world wide games with solid Japan sales and when their market recovers when the population stablizes it will be in a stable point.

Who knows how long it might take for Japans population to stop falling, the video game market will probably look drastically different by then.
 
When I walk into a Tokyo game, I see little reason for Japanese gamers to move onto a PS4 console just yet. The games are not there, or PS3/Vita versions are also available.

Examples:
Dragon Quest Builders PS4/PS3/Vita
Star Ocean 5 PS4/PS3
Ryu ga Gotoku Kiwami PS4/PS3
Ikenie to Yuki no Setsuna PS3/Vita

I don't agree next gen and consoles have been abandoned, but there is less immediate incentive to upgrade. Games like Dark Souls 3 or Final Fantasy XV will likely change that.

If Bloodborne didn't move the needle, dark souls 3 won't either.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Maybe 2016 is the year the PS4 makes it big with all that Square support. Maybe NX bridges the gap between handheld and living room much more successfully than Wii U did. If one of these things happens, home console gaming in Japan will beat off the slow march to its death. IDK. I'm not sure either is particularly likely but I hope something like that happens. I want the Japanese playing and making console games.

TBH, I'm not really sure that this isn't a problem Japanese third parties created for themselves. Since the rise of Western developed home console games in the west (Xbox into PS3/Xbox360) you've had Japanese companies chasing, often unsuccessfully, the world audience, retreating to niche development for special audiences in Japan, or, more recently, going mobile. In the process, they have stopped serving a general console gaming audience in Japan. Companies like Square seem to be awake to this now, but it may well be too late anyway. Gaming seems to have moved on in Japan. (I mean, even in the 90s a lot of 'chasing the west' happened. Just the west was "open" to Japanese advances more so than now at least relative to development costs, etc.)

The PS3 was the awkward console for Sony, having come off massive Japanese support on the PS2 but Sony has turned that around and PS4 has become the definitive console of this generation in the west. It has done that largely on Western support.

As for Nintendo, Iwata turned Nintendo towards Japan and both the Wii and Wii U were explicit attempts to re-energize Japanese console gaming. Considering that Nintendo has gone into mobile and the rumors that the NX might have closely linked 'brother' handheld and home consoles, perhaps Nintendo has given up on the Japanese living room and has moved onto supporting mobile and handheld in a way that allows them to at the same time provide a home console for the west. Or maybe NX is designed to fulfill the ambition of the Wii U. It seems like it could be targeted towards both and waiting to see how the chips fall. In any case it is Iwata's last gamble for Japan. Who knows where Nintendo goes after Iwata particularly if NX fails in Japan.
 
The foundation of SEI with San Mateo to be the main headquarters is not much more than the administrative naturalization of something that was effective for a long time. PlayStation was a worldwide brand since the beginning and having the main headquarters in California goes without saying considering the market trends.

For those who would be sad about the lack of japanese roots inside PlayStation, some things are worth noting in the SEI organization chart : both Shawn Layden and Andrew House are veterans 100% fluent in japanese and have worked for Sony Japan during several years. John Kodera (network operations) is from Tokyo and joined Sony Corporation in 1992. And finally, the hardware operations and the R&D operations still belong to japanese directors Masayasu Ito and Kazuo Miura.

So it's really not like PlayStation have been washed off from its japanese DNA.
 

ClearData

Member
Nah.

Japan's 2 million PS4s compared to 36 million worldwide makes this the smallest market share ever for Japan when it comes to a PlayStation system. I feel pretty comfortable in saying that moving the HQ to the U.S. is emblematic of Sony's feelings on the global market.

Has nothing to do with "games coming for PS4 in the next year or so."

That's what I picked up on in your article Jeff and that is what got me thinking. This merger on the part of Sony, and the merger by Nintendo of its divisions and possible mobile / console architecture of the NX has me thinking that the Japanese console makers are seeing the writing on the wall.

One thing that I wonder about particularly is how well premium games can do in the mobile market. It just seems people are not willing to pay much for mobile unless there is some fremium or free to play mechanic. And even then the disparity between the rich few like King and the poor other companies is staggering. Even if you succeed, like Zynga once did, you could end up on the trash heap in good time. Mobile seems like such an unstable market, yet a lot of Japanese game companies seem to see a few massive goldmines and are content to chase the dream.
 

entremet

Member
The foundation of SEI with San Mateo to be the main headquarters is not much more than the administrative naturalization of something that was effective for a long time. PlayStation was a worldwide brand since the beginning and having the main headquarters in California goes without saying considering the market trends.

For those who would be sad about the lack of japanese roots inside PlayStation, some things are worth noting in the SEI organization chart : both Shawn Layden and Andrew House are veterans 100% fluent in japanese and have worked for Sony Japan during several years. John Kodera (network operations) is from Tokyo and joined Sony Corporation in 1992. And finally, the hardware operations and the R&D operatons still belong to japanese directors Masayasu Ito and Kazuo Miura.

So it's really not like PlayStation have been washed off from its japanese DNA.

It's not so much the personnel but the focus of the PlayStation brand going forward. And it's been a long time in the making. This didn't start this generation.

It's started with PS3 with putting a lot of money behind Naughty Dog, Guerrilla, Evolution, Santa Monica, in making big budget, Western friendly games.

This coupled with Japanese 3rd parties, namely Square-Enix, floundering last generation, and the rise of the European market, and the promotion and partnering with Western indie studios.

It's a smart strategy.

Japan still makes great games, but the current identity of the PlayStation brand is highly Western. That's what pays the bills.

The Vita was obviously Sony's attempt to maintain a beach head in it's home region, but it hasn't been the huge success the PSP was. I mean, it's respectable, but Sony itself is no longer supporting it. That says a lot about their development priorities and direction.
 

JeffGrubb

Member
That's what I picked up on in your article Jeff and that is what got me thinking. This merger on the part of Sony, and the merger by Nintendo of its divisions and possible mobile / console architecture of the NX has me thinking that the Japanese console makers are seeing the writing on the wall.

One thing that I wonder about particularly is how well premium games can do in the mobile market. It just seems people are not willing to pay much for mobile unless there is some fremium or free to play mechanic. And even then the disparity between the rich few like King and the poor other companies is staggering. Even if you succeed, like Zynga once did, you could end up on the trash heap in good time. Mobile seems like such an unstable market, yet a lot of Japanese game companies seem to see a few massive goldmines and are content to chase the dream.

This is the thing about mobile in Japan. It isn't like it's a gold rush for everyone. Publishers aren't having that much success. Japan hovers around the No. 2 or No.3 highest spending country on mobile games annually, and it all goes to two games!

Monster Strike and Puzzle & Dragons make all the money.
 

Abriael

Banned
Japan's 2 million PS4s compared to 36 million worldwide makes this the smallest market share ever for Japan when it comes to a PlayStation system.

...And still one of the largest market shares in the world, despite the late launch.

If you really think that a country where 5.5% of the global installed base of a product, and that still has the attention of a sizable percentage of the big third party publishers creating content for that product, "no longer matters" for the company selling it, then I'm afraid that the problem goes beyond the clickbait.

But by all means, we all know that this stuff works for the purpose it's written.
 

gamerMan

Member
I don't think it is dead. If all we get is better hardware, it is dead. If a company can develop a new way to play or cheaper way to play games then it might speak to that audience. There needs to be some innovation in the market. It's really similar to Apple. Apple create the ipod. After a couple a hardware iterations, the market started dying. Then they created the iPhone. Then they created the iPad. You can only do do much with hardware upgrades. If you want to reach more people, you have to bring innovation.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
With a few exceptions (Metal Gear Solid), Japanese console games really haven't been relevant in more than a decade. If most of the games you play are Japanese, you're far from the typical gamer.

The truth hurts. :(

That might explain why I play so much stuff on Nintendo's systems and, to a lesser extent, on Vita. I think I'm far from the average player now. Things have changed since the 90s!
 

JeffGrubb

Member
...And still one of the largest market shares in the world, despite the late launch.

If you really think that a country where 5.5% of the global installed base of a product, and that still has the attention of a sizable percentage of the big third party publishers creating content for that product, "no longer matters" for the company selling it, then I'm afraid that the problem goes beyond the clickbait.

I didn't say it doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter to PlayStation.
 
Japanese consoles sales will be okay .
It won't return to highs of the PS1 or 2 era but PS4 is tracking with PS3 in Japan and Asia sales will help .
And this year looks to have a good set of software .
I expect PS4 will sell less than PS3 because the gen will be shorter .
Still Japan will still sell enough consoles for it to matter (along with Asia ) it just won't be as big as it was before.


I didn't say it doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter to PlayStation.

So i guess most countries in the world don't matter then ?
At the end of this gen Japan may end up having the 4th or 5th highest install base for PS .
So of course it still matter not as much as before but it still matters .
 

biocat

Member
This is the thing about mobile in Japan. It isn't like it's a gold rush for everyone. Publishers aren't having that much success. Japan hovers around the No. 2 or No.3 highest spending country on mobile games annually, and it all goes to two games!

Monster Strike and Puzzle & Dragons make all the money.

Yet mobile game development costs are so low, it doesn't have to be a giga-hit like Monster Strike or Puzzle & Dragons and they'll still be making more than your average console release. Look at Square Enix, Sega, Marvelous, or even Konami's mobile apps. They are topping the sales charts month after month. You can't compare that with a medium to high budget game that will likely only sell well within the first first couple of weeks in Japan
 

Abriael

Banned
I didn't say it doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter to PlayStation.

Let me repeat:

"If you really think that a country where 5.5% of the global installed base of a product, and that still has the attention of a sizable percentage of the big third party publishers creating content for that product, "no longer matters" for the company selling it, then I'm afraid that the problem goes beyond the clickbait."

IE: a country where 5.5% of PS4 consoles are sold, and on which a sizable percentage of PlayStation publishers are still quite focused, most definitely does matter to PlayStation.

If you really think that it doesn't, there's a problem right there.
 

Jabba

Banned
I'd wait and see how the glut of Japanese console games that SE and Sony are pushing perform before calling it over.

That and how the NX performs, assuming it has a console aspect to it.

This is where I'm at also.

It's quite possible to see a small "resurgence" beginning late in this gen, continuing on into the next. It's what I'm hoping for anyway.

I'm not saying it will be the glory days again, maybe a healthy sustainable resurgence.
 

JeffGrubb

Member
Let me repeat:

"If you really think that a country where 5.5% of the global installed base of a product, and that still has the attention of a sizable percentage of the big third party publishers creating content for that product, "no longer matters" for the company selling it, then I'm afraid that the problem goes beyond the clickbait."

IE: a country where 5.5% of PS4 consoles are sold, and on which a sizable percentage of PlayStation publishers are still quite focused, most definitely does matter to PlayStation.

If you really think that it doesn't, there's a problem right there.

OK. Well, I'll keep an eye out for the police.
 

Maniel

Banned
The ps4 should be okay relative to ps3 when it gets taken off the market even if it ends up selling less. That would signal a stabilization on the playstation front. Nintendo on the other hand could end up with a higher install base with the NX home console if they play their cards right.

Not saying there aren't problems, obviously there are. There is a fair chance that the NX handheld will sell significantly less than the 3ds, but in strictly the home console market, hardware should begin to level off.
 

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
I don't think they're done. I think the market thinks they're done and that's not shocking at all. Look at the west and how phones are part of pop culture. It's such a premature market if you consider what the vast majority (maybe 99% of people) actually buy. Our market is either generated by a certain fad or it exists for a reason.

I think it needs to just about reinvent itself in Japan. There's probably an incredibly large group of people who still respect the home console, but then people have to work for the rest of their lives and the culture to game diminishes due to their employer's culture. If you ask me, people in NA are sitting on games and consoles more than ever. It's sad that the back end of game chaser's flea market snag and grab from someone who just happens to own a PS2 or Atari 2600 is how our market is in general.

To me it feels like there's much more negative vibes or no vibes at all. The phone or mobile division explains itself with how people live their lives. In all honesty don't look at it like that. You'll wind up getting depressed.

I do see the point of gaming being this multi billion dollar industry, but who does that really entail? That could mean a billion dollar industry on games that I don't like period.

I think we've been hit with more and more games, but Japan isn't buying into any of it. They want something on the grand scale or just give them mobile games to entertain them. Personally, it feels like they have very strict tastes or they simple don't care at all. Gaming could be flurishing while you think everything sucks.

It feels like Japan will always make wonderful games, but the west enjoys them more. I could be incredibly wrong about this. I don't think consoles are dead because it's such a dysfunctional method if you don't keep the basics. It sorta bleeds into that melloncolly orchestra that we navigate through while things just bench themselves into something we enjoy.

Nintendo doesnt really say a lot and their selection is just about slim if you aren't willing for some give and take. We are way past the Wii years if you ask me.
 

crinale

Member
Yeah it was declining but last holiday trend has reversed a bit, so perhaps if they had software "pull" it could still be around in Japan maybe?

And as for mobile gaming, like few percent of the audience paying millions of yen to support the ecosystem won't last for long I guess..
 
Of course not.

The big Japanese games on PS4 are going to be released soon. 2016 is just a start, it's only going to grow further in 2017 and beyond. Consoles are going to be fine in Japan.
 

entremet

Member
Of course Japan matters to Sony.

However, it hasn't been the standard bearer since the PS2 days.

It's a tertiary market, after NA and the EU, and Japanese developers now need to make more Western appealing products for continued relevance in the global market.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
What's interesting is that despite the shrinkage in Japan, the traditional Japanese gaming companies are putting out more than last generation if we compare it side by side at the same time frame.
 
Of course Japan matters to Sony.

However, it hasn't been the standard bearer since the PS2 days.

It's a tertiary market, after NA and the EU, now and Japanese developers now need to make more Western appealing products for continued relevance in the global market.

If you look at it most of the big IPs are already that way ( FF , RE, MGS , KH etc etc )
And games that depend on Japan first have a smaller budget like tales .
So some of the companies have already seen what has happen .
 

wapplew

Member
Of course Japan matters to Sony.

However, it hasn't been the standard bearer since the PS2 days.

It's a tertiary market, after NA and the EU, now and Japanese developers now need to make more Western appealing products for continued relevance in the global market.

They tried last gen, it's a mistake. You can't compete with the budget of western studio.
Better stick with what they do best, there is a place for them in global market. Asia market love their Japanese games.

Recently, Yakuza Kiwami (traditional Chinese version) sold 200k copy in Asia (Chinese region), that's almost half of what they sold in Japan.
Double Yakuza Zero sale in that region.
That market is growing fast, it could be bigger than Japan one day.
 

entremet

Member
If you look at it most of the big IPs are already that way ( FF , RE, MGS , KH etc etc )
And games that depend on Japan first have smaller budget like tales .
So some of the companies have already seen what has happen .

Sure. Part of the reason those IP have had longevity is due to global as well.

I think Japan will be fine, but growth and expectations need to be realistic. The game industry needs Japan's quirkiness and inventiveness.

Heck, the Western indie renaissance has been fueled by designers that grew up appreciating and loving Japanese game design.
 

Jigorath

Banned
PS4 has sold 36m consoles. Roughly 2.3m of that came from Japan. Japan isn't all that important for consoles anymore, and it hasn't been for over a decade. Just be happy that Japanese publishers are supporting it regardless.
 
This is worrying. I don't want consoles to go anywhere, although who knows if they will.

Japan loves mobile games, doesn't it? I can't stand mobile gaming.
 

wapplew

Member
Isn't the PS4 actually doing better than the PS2 in Asia? I think there was a graph that showed that, but I can't find it.

PS4-Hardware-sales-asia.jpg
 
Bloodborne was a new IP, despite the shared heritage. I think Japanese Dark Souls players will feel more compelled to buy the next game in one of their favorite series.

this is nonsensical. Last time we checked, Bloodborne was tracking to sell as well or better than Dark Souls and Dark Souls II were, and those were multiplatform.

Japan would literally have to be the only territory in the world where the fans of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and Dark Souls II somehow "just missed" that Bloodborne was the same kind of game, made by the same creator, and universally acclaimed.

nonsensical. Dark Souls 3 isn't going to do anything for the PS4.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
You're looking at one of them right here. And I've been playing games since the Arcades/NES days.

I like Western games as well, but it'll be hard for me to move on without Japanese games involved.

I can say for the first time in my life that it sucks to be a minority.
 
Japan has been effectively priced out of the AAA market. The only players left are the big dogs who can afford it, like Square, Capcom, etc. The rest are basically unable to develop high budget console games and unable to participate in the AAA market, forcing them to go indie, make smaller digital titles, rely on PC, or go mobile. The 3DS and Vita were a low budget haven for a few years, but with the slow death of the dedicated gaming handheld, that has become untenable as well.

With japan out of the AAA market, their output diminishes on console. Without many japanese games, the console will lose relevance. We'll probably lose a few more developers who determine that console dev ain't worth it, and those who do remain are going to have to assimilate into the AAA market in order to remain relevant. The days of japan redefining the industry aren't just over, they were over ten years ago and some of us are only beginning to realize it.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
Really doesn't matter what happens with consoles in Japan.

Sony sells plenty of consoles elsewhere.

As long as that is the case, they'll keep making them.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.

I assume that the replacement for the PS1/PS2 Japanese market is the entire Asian market for this generation.

The good thing with that is that Japanese games are now targeted to Asians, have almost almost simultaneous releases, and are in different languages.
 
Japan as a market just isn't that important anymore. I can't for the life of me figure out why any companies are planning around the Japanese market when outside of Puzzles and Dragons and Monster Hunter, they just don't care to spend a lot of money on games.
 

biocat

Member
this is nonsensical. Last time we checked, Bloodborne was tracking to sell as well or better than Dark Souls and Dark Souls II were, and those were multiplatform.

Japan would literally have to be the only territory in the world where the fans of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and Dark Souls II somehow "just missed" that Bloodborne was the same kind of game, made by the same creator, and universally acclaimed.

nonsensical. Dark Souls 3 isn't going to do anything for the PS4.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying DS3 is going to put a PS4 in everyone's house, but it will do much better than a bunch of cross-gen and western titles.
 

antonz

Member
Japan is an evolving market. Its evolution honestly plays more overall to Nintendo favor but Sony is not abandoning Japan either. Sony simply knows the reality. As long as they sell Consoles sufficiently well enough around the world Japanese Game support will come.

It is up to Nintendo now to be competitive enough to get that Japanese support as well on the console side.

Handheld they have to continue to evolve as well but its very likely the days of competitor handhelds is over for good. So they need to continue to make handhelds compelling enough to stand against Mobile.
 
Aging population + stigma of playing video games as an adult + long work hours and commute = declining home console sales.

I have a hard time imagining consoles making a significant comeback over there unless Japan goes through a series of societal shifts in the next decade.

Had no idea Japan was like that!

Such a contrast to NA. There's probably more stigma here for those who watch hours of certain types of TV (basically anything not premium or niche) or an entire day of sports, as an adult, than those who game.

My last three dinner parties devolved (or evolved?) into gourmet meal followed by video games! Friends having a blast with GTA, forza, Mario maker, and retro ninja turtles SNES.
 
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying DS3 is going to put a PS4 in everyone's house, but it will do much better than a bunch of cross-gen and western titles.

Dark Souls 3 will absolutely do no better than Bloodborne, which is the exact same kind of game, made by the same people, and exclusive to PS4. If Bloodborne is "western" then so is Dark Souls 3. This isn't rocket science.

edit: Dark Souls has the appearance of being a bigger game vs. Demon's Souls than it actually is, due to the overwhelming 3-1 dominance of the Xbox360 in the states. Most gamers in the US missed demon's souls completely and Dark Souls came out of nowhere for them on Xbox360 and PC.

This didn't happen in Japan, because the PS3 was the only viable system there. There's no reason to assume the players who moved from Demons to Dark somehow just "don't know" bloodborne exists.
 

biocat

Member
Dark Souls 3 will absolutely do no better than Bloodborne, which is the exact same kind of game, made by the same people, and exclusive to PS4. If Bloodborne is "western" then so is Dark Souls 3. This isn't rocket science.

Nobody in Japan thinks Bloodborne or Dark Souls are western. They are both recognized as Japanese games.
 
Nobody in Japan thinks Bloodborne or Dark Souls are western. They are both recognized as Japanese games.

Exactly. Which is why Bloodborne's failure to move any consoles in Japan means Dark Souls 3 won't either. Everyone realizes they're the same game.
 
Japanese developers/publishers dropped the ball hard last generation because, aside from Valkyria Chronicles, Lost Planet, and Platinum games, they never really made any new IPs that were of good/okay quality and didn't have a lot of stuff that alienated western customers. Then they doubled down on their mistakes by making a lot of Japan centric decisions, like cancelling an Xbox 360 port of Valkyria Chronicles because the 360 wasn't selling in Japan and ignoring the PC until the last three or so years, sealing their irrelevance/negative reputation for basically a decade.

Another thing that hurt them was the fact that they don't have a corps of English speaking people to A) tell them about cultural differences early in the process, B) help them get competitive with international business, and C) help them get info from the west about game development and distribute it to developers. They lost out on a lot of valuable info and opportunities because Japanese businesses just don't give a shit about the outside world, even if they can learn from it or exploit it economically:
Now, because of shrinking domestic markets, growth for Japan can only lie beyond its borders. This will occur only if it understands non-Japanese customers. Globalisation is not a business choice, says Hiroshi Mikitani, the founder of the e-commerce platform Rakuten, but a matter of survival. “The greatest business risk [Japan] faces is that of staying at home,” he says.

As Mr Mikitani notes, the internet is where globalisation’s realities hit hard. But he believes his experience of developing a business with English as the in-house language, where a fifth of staff are foreigners, offers general lessons: “In Japan, there are only 16,000 graduates who majored in computer science. There are 60,000 in the US and 300,000 in China. I assume there are more than that in India,” he says.
With the shrinkage of the Japanese market, “a retailer faces difficulty unless it secures a certain size of overseas market”, he says. “We are aiming at racking up 10 per cent of sales outside Japan [from 5 per cent now].”

Achieving a shift in mentality will not be easy. Tadashi Yanai, president of Fast Retailing — clothing store Uniqlo is a subsidiary — is blunt in his criticism. It is, he says, exceptionally difficult to make Japanese employees think globally and vital to avoid the “superficial globalisation” of the past. “Many Japanese people believe that their country is special and best. You can go to a bookshop and find a lot of books praising Japan. They disgust me,” says Mr Yanai, who thinks that the countdown to the 2020 Tokyo Olympics is a critical time. Japan must have truly globalised by then, he argues.

Key, he says, is for Japanese to speak English. He has pushed his own company to become effectively bilingual in internal communications. “I want to give the Japanese headquarters the global mindset of being a ‘foreign company based in Japan’.” Top executives, he adds, need to “think with foreigners”, with more people “in the most important posts” going abroad for experience and to “train the managers there”.
Central to a globalised psychology, he says, is an acceptance that you are in business for the customers, something missing when Japan first started spreading its sales forces across the globe.
 
Consoles are going to be fine in Japan.

No they're not.
(Disclaimer: this is my experience, so calm down in advance)
In all the time I have lived here (13 years) it is a pretty dire situation now.
From what I can see around me it looks grim. I only know 2 people with a PS4 and they only tend to play (get this) western games.
3DS is popular with kids but I have never seen an adult playing one.
It tends to be all smartphones!
Lets hope the NX can turn things around!
 
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