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[The Technomancer]

Maybe that's what you feel coming from just the debates.

Hillary has spent her whole life advocating and working for children and women in the various places she's been: Arkansas, nationwide, New York, worldwide. You don't suffer years of defamation and get out across the country to promote healthcare legislation wearing a bulletproof vest under your clothes without caring. You don't change the policies of the State Department under the radar to make it LGBT-friendly without caring. You don't devote so much time and effort, and do it again and again with little acknowledgement from others, without actually caring.

For all the talk about Hillary Clinton taking Wall Street money and being wealthy, very few people seem to remember that she came from a middle class family and actually did work quite hard for the wealth and recognition she has today.

I think there is room to criticize. But I do not think hate is the go to point regarding Hillary Clinton. Especially since she has already shouldered so hate just for trying to be a good person.

I think its clear at this point that some people really don't have any understanding of Hillary's history. That was blatantly obvious when people acted like she was lying or exaggerating about healthcare reform, good lord that was embarrassing.

 

[B-Dubs]

I think Bernie expected that to be more of a zinger than how it turned out.

It's a line that'll work great in a general election against someone like Trump or Cruz, but not in a primary against Hillary.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You stumble, you get back up. You stumble again, you get back up. And eventually you succeed. But if you never try, you will never succeed.

For a country that's known for "land of the brave" and "taking risks for the American dream", it sure doesn't sound like it anymore.

And if they fail here... there goes the Supreme Court for several decades among other things.

 

[SURGEdude]

She's trying to have it both ways. She can't actually say the word establisment since it's a toxic word now, but Obama is still fairly popular among Democrats. So her strategy going forward is to tie herself to Obama as closely as possible to get his fanbase to come to her side. And yeah, it does suggest that Obama will be looked at by future generations as the Democrat's Reagan.

It's smart politics but isn't great for selling herself as somebody who will enact the ideals we hoped from Obama that he wasn't able to pull off.

I'm not a fan of Diet Obama.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Maybe that's what you feel coming from just the debates.

Hillary has spent her whole life advocating and working for children and women in the various places she's been: Arkansas, nationwide, New York, worldwide. You don't suffer years of defamation and get out across the country to promote healthcare legislation wearing a bulletproof vest under your clothes without caring. You don't change the policies of the State Department under the radar to make it LGBT-friendly without caring. You don't devote so much time and effort, and do it again and again with little acknowledgement from others, without actually caring.

For all the talk about Hillary Clinton taking Wall Street money and being wealthy, very few people seem to remember that she came from a middle class family and actually did work quite hard for the wealth and recognition she has today.

I think there is room to criticize. But I do not think hate is the go to point regarding Hillary Clinton. Especially since she has already shouldered so hate just for trying to be a good person.

 

[nib95]

So he should "condemn" and "criticize" when a despotic dictator uses lethal force against his unarmed civilian population who are merely crying out for democracy? Okay, gotcha.

There are countless dictators etc that the US does exactly that with, sometimes worse, where instead they work with, or alongside them, or even worse still, put them in power in the first place, Eg the Shah in Iran, or Saddam Hussein in Iraq, who also used US sold WMD's to wipe out thousands of Kurds. So yes. Exactly that. Regime change isn't working, and hasn't been working in the region for decades. It's time to give up this miserable policy that has cost so much, and led to so much more long term suffering.

 

[maabus1999]

And if they fail here... there goes the Supreme Court for several decades among other things.

Maybe if Clinton wins she should nominate Obama and Sanders to the court...if spots come up. The GOP would literally die.

 

[mjp2417]

Who would Bernie even choose as vp if he got the nom? Who shares his beliefs? The guy is getting on up there in age and something could happen while he is in office.

Keith Ellison would make a certain amount of sense

 

[Trojita]

I think its clear at this point that some people really don't have any understanding of Hillary's history. That was blatantly obvious when people acted like she was lying or exaggerating about healthcare reform, good lord that was embarrassing.

Yeah I had a double take when people were mocking the Hillarycare comment.

 

[RoKKeR]

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/698004706958929921

Not a great look!

 

[Battersea Power Station]

bravery and stupidity are not mutually exclusive

And yet the conservatives in this country is pushing the national conversation further right in recent years through both stupidity and bravery. And they have had political leaders prod then along, be they Sarah Palin, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, etc. There's no one pushing back from the left. Playing defense is not a long-term strategy.

 

[Jenov]

Maybe if Clinton wins she should nominate Obama and Sanders to the court...if spots come up. The GOP would literally die.

Someone already floated the idea of her nominating Obama, she was open to the idea.

 

[Bronx-Man]

It's smart politics but isn't great for selling herself as somebody who will enact the ideals we hoped from Obama that he wasn't able to pull off.

I'm not a fan of Diet Obama.

Think of it as Kylo Ren finishing what Darth Vader started.

 

[Officerrob]

It's smart politics but isn't great for selling herself as somebody who will enact the ideals we hoped from Obama that he wasn't able to pull off.

I'm not a fan of Diet Obama.

Really? Hell, I'd take caffeine free Obama

 

[danm999]

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/698004706958929921

Not a great look!

Congratulations CNN for latching onto some of the most facile shit.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Anyway, this debate highlights the long standing strengths & weakness of both candidates. When it comes to class, Wall St., money in politics, Sanders is strong. This issue makes Hillary look bad and plays into the perception that she is untrustworthy. On Foreign Policy, Hillary sound like she knows what she is talking about and Sanders sounds like a History Professor. When the polls show that the public cares about Terrorism and ISIS, Sanders can't keep pivoting back to his stump speech on the Iraq vote and dictators.

I do agree that Bernie needs to get together a solid FP team because he looks weak against a former Sec. of State when talking about specific issues. But I do think that he is trying to lay out a message that being hawkish in trying to solve all our FP problems with military force ends up being damaging to our security and creates regional instability that can create serious problems for everyone.

 

[Razorskin]

You stumble, you get back up. You stumble again, you get back up. And eventually you succeed. But if you never try, you will never succeed.

For a country that's known for "land of the brave" and "taking risks for the American dream", it sure doesn't sound like it anymore.

Which movie are you paraphrasing from this time?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Maybe if Clinton wins she should nominate Obama and Sanders to the court...if spots come up. The GOP would literally die.

Obama has the background for it.

Sanders doesn't though

 

[noshten]

I though Bernie did alright. I though he did pretty well on FP, but than again I get excited by history and learning from it.
We shall find out what if any effect this debate has in the future. I can see him not making much headway in SC with how little time he has before the primary. Especially with this line of attack, he is going to spend a lot of time talking about Obama in the coming weeks. On the other hand I think Nevada will be very up in the air at this point.

 

[B-Dubs]

Maybe if Clinton wins she should nominate Obama and Sanders to the court...if spots come up. The GOP would literally die.

Obama yes, Bernie would never make it as he's not qualified for the post.

 

[Trojita]

Congratulations CNN for latching onto some of the most facile shit.

Crappy News Network

Obama has the background for it.

Sanders doesn't though

I agree with that.

 

[nib95]

Aspiration is worthless without a path.

Of course he has a path, but only if put in power does he have the ability to even attempt to make anything resembling those changes. To me this argument against Sanders is such a defeatist one. Probably one of the reasons America is where it is today tbh.

 

[injurai]

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/698004706958929921

Not a great look!

For CNN. We all observed it, but trying to say anything past that is petty. He interjected with points that landed and missed. The finger wag is just part of his body language, and nothing to drum up as an issue over.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Yes it could be made. And that's where I stand in my opinion. I'm not certain, I'm not sure. I just think during a time of conflict he was right.

I'm not suggesting I can prove it. I was only responding to the assertion that I was factually wrong. As you seem to now suggest we simply can't be sure.

I don't think I ever said anyone was factually wrong about whether or not Carter's inaction saved lives. My position is simply that, by most common measures (economicly, socially, foreign policy, etc), he's generally not considered among the best Presidents.

I'd never say (or even purposely imply) that you're wrong for liking the guy or even for thinking he's the best President ever. I just disagree with the assertion you made that he was the best because of his compassion, simply because that's not something we can objectively measure.

But if compassion is the major metric for you when considering a President's worth, far be it for me to say you're wrong.

 

[SURGEdude]

I think its clear at this point that some people really don't have any understanding of Hillary's history. That was blatantly obvious when people acted like she was lying or exaggerating about healthcare reform, good lord that was embarrassing.

It's in poor taste to downplay her accomplishments in healthcare reform. She's been a beacon for decades. But she's wrong trying to protect the ACA considering that it would stand until it was (hypothetically) replaced.

Sanders wouldn't replace it until something better passed.

 

[metalslimer]

Maybe that's what you feel coming from just the debates.

Hillary has spent her whole life advocating and working for children and women in the various places she's been: Arkansas, nationwide, New York, worldwide. You don't suffer years of defamation and get out across the country to promote healthcare legislation wearing a bulletproof vest under your clothes without caring. You don't change the policies of the State Department under the radar to make it LGBT-friendly without caring. You don't devote so much time and effort, and do it again and again with little acknowledgement from others, without actually caring.

For all the talk about Hillary Clinton taking Wall Street money and being wealthy, very few people seem to remember that she came from a middle class family and actually did work quite hard for the wealth and recognition she has today.

I think there is room to criticize. But I do not think hate is the go to point regarding Hillary Clinton. Especially since she has already shouldered so hate just for trying to be a good person.

thank you for this

 

[Adaren]

This one went to Hillary for me. Bernie's floundering on his funding at the onset was disappointing if not terribly surprising. I wish Hillary would stop going all in with the narrative that Bernie is overly critical of Obama, though. She does best when she sticks to the facts, her experience, and a professional tone.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

I think its clear at this point that some people really don't have any understanding of Hillary's history. That was blatantly obvious when people acted like she was lying or exaggerating about healthcare reform, good lord that was embarrassing.

I think that's because in order to have been cognizant of the things that Hillary has accomplished as first lady, you'd have to be at least over 35. To remember her accomplishments as Senator, you'd have to be about 30. And even if you were in those age groups, you'd have to be immune to the vast right wing smear campaign against her family name and her especially. How many of the millenials backing Sanders can say this?

 

[Tabris]

Of course he has a path, but only if put in power does he have the ability to even attempt to make anything resembling those changes. To me this argument against Sanders is such a defeatist one. Probably one of the reasons America is where it is today tbh.

Yes, this is exactly on point.

You guys have such a defeatist attitude.

 

[jtb]

And yet the conservatives in this country is pushing the national conversation further right in recent years through both stupidity and bravery. And they have had political leaders prod then along, be they Sarah Palin, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, etc. There's no one pushing back from the left. Playing defense is not a long-term strategy.

I share your frustration but I completely disagree: packing the Supreme Court with liberal justices is the easiest and most secure way of pushing the country left, particularly with a rabid, unpredictable GOP controlled congress.

Also, I think this cycle, on the GOP side, illustrates just how dangerous playing that ideological purity game can be. The GOP can't stop eating their own, they're undergoing huge upheaval. You don't come out of a process like that unscathed.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Obama has the background for it.

Sanders doesn't though

Sure, Obama has a Constitutional Law degree. He also violated that Constitution by approving mass surveillance of Americans. I wouldn't want Obama anywhere near that court.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Obama yes, Bernie would never make it as he's not qualified for the post.

Eh not a fan of Obama to the court. He's far too good a speaker and icon for the dems to be in court for the next 30 years. He still can do a lot for the Dem party as fundraiser and activist. 70 year old Bams maybe but not right now.

 

[Mecha]

This one went to Hillary for me. Bernie's floundering on his funding at the onset was disappointing if not terribly surprising. I wish Hillary would stop going all in with the narrative that Bernie is overly critical of Obama, though. She does best when she sticks to the facts, her experience, and a professional tone.

Obama is very popular among democrats, Hillary is trying to pull Obama supporters towards her side. I don't like listening to it in debates, but her bringing up Obama makes sense.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This one went to Hillary for me. Bernie's floundering on his funding at the onset was disappointing if not terribly surprising. I wish Hillary would stop going all in with the narrative that Bernie is overly critical of Obama, though. She does best when she sticks to the facts, her experience, and a professional tone.

Disagree she should do whatever she can to make it topic #1 that Sanders wanted to primary Obama in 2012.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think that's because in order to have been cognizant of the things that Hillary has accomplished as first lady, you'd have to be at least over 30. To remember her accomplishments as Senator, you'd have to be about 25. And even if you were in those age groups, you'd have to be immune to the vast right wing smear campaign against her family name and her especially. How many of the millenials backing Sanders can say this?

I don't know. I'm 24. But even as a teenager I was still paying attention to what was happening during the later GWB years and early Obama years, and I caught myself up fast with a little bit of research. It just annoys me.

 

[maabus1999]

Obama has the background for it.

Sanders doesn't though

Oh I know on Sanders. But watching the GOP flip would be almost worth the exception.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Sure, Obama has a Constitutional Law degree. He also violated that Constitution by approving mass surveillance of Americans. I wouldn't want Obama anywhere near that court.

Sue him, then.

 

[Ogrekiller]

You stumble, you get back up. You stumble again, you get back up. And eventually you succeed. But if you never try, you will never succeed.

For a country that's known for "land of the brave" and "taking risks for the American dream", it sure doesn't sound like it anymore.

Garbage.

Because while you stumble, no one is waiting for you to get up. Someone else already won.

Taking risks is how you get ahead. But when the chips are down and you aim big- then be prepared to lose big.

But that's alright. Losing is fine as long as everyone loses, just like how everyone wins when you win right?

 

[Macho Madness]

Yes, this is exactly on point.

You guys have such a defeatist attitude.

You deal with the Republican party's bullshit in your daily life and then get back to me.

 

[ibyea]

And yet the conservatives in this country is pushing the national conversation further right in recent years through both stupidity and bravery. And they have had political leaders prod then along, be they Sarah Palin, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, etc. There's no one pushing back from the left. Playing defense is not a long-term strategy.

God yes, that is all the left has been doing in the last few decades, playing defense.

 

[B-Dubs]

Eh not a fan of Obama to the court. He's far too good a speaker and icon for the dems to be in court for the next 30 years. He still can do a lot for the Dem party as fundraiser and activist. 70 year old Bams maybe but not right now.

I agree, but I do think if she gets to replace Scalia it should be with Obama if only for maximum salt and Scalia's ghostly salt.

Not that I want anything bad to happen to Scalia, I wish death on no man. Even huge assholes like him.

 

[SURGEdude]

Really? Hell, I'd take caffeine free Obama

Me too! I'd just not prefer that option.

I don't think I ever said anyone was factually wrong about whether or not Carter's inaction saved lives. My position is simply that, by most common measures (economicly, socially, foreign policy, etc), he's generally not considered among the best Presidents.

I'd never say (or even purposely imply) that you're wrong for liking the guy or even for thinking he's the best President ever. I just disagree with the assertion you made that he was the best because of his compassion, simply because that's not something we can objectively measure.

But if compassion is the major metric for you when considering a President's worth, far be it for me to say you're wrong.

Thanks for the well reasoned response. I think we may have talked pasted each other earlier. I guess the take-away is that you reasonably value a specific metric of success that differs from mine. I'm cool with that, and am always glad that freethinking people can come to different conclusions.

I guess I think we (Americans) just need a softer touch and so I take that skill as paramount.

 

[Tabris]

You deal with the Republican party's bullshit in your daily life and then get back to me.

Our country had a conservative majority. Our voters came out and gave Liberals the majority.

Harper is almost as bad as the American Republicans.

 

[Trojita]

I'm just glad, at the end of the day, that we have two great candidates running.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

I don't know. I'm 24. But even as a teenager I was still paying attention to what was happening during the later GWB years and early Obama years, and I caught myself up fast with a little bit of research. It just annoys me.

Yeah, same here. But most people aren't researching Hillary Clinton. They had to have been exposed to her. Have you seen videos of her from the 90s? She's as progressive as Bernie Sanders, and had the energy to match. Growing up and seeing her primarily as a secretary of state is just not the same.

 

[Zok310]

Easy win for Bernie, called out Hillary on her bullshit ever chance he got. The more she gets defeated the more she adopts Bernie's position which makes her the weaker candidate.
And if she was such a big supporter of campaign financial reform then why is she taking money from Wall Street and pac's? Why not lead by example and stop taking their money going forward. How can you take their money then come on stage and say you are for campaign financial reform.
And to show how disconnected she is from the public she admits on national TV that she is a student of Henry Kissenger?

 

[ibyea]

I'm just glad at the end of the day we have two great candidates running.

At least I agree with that.

 

[SURGEdude]

I'm just glad, at the end of the day, that we have two great candidates running.

Agreed. Anybody on that stage would mean a better life for most of us.

 

[Paskil]

I agree, but I do think if she gets to replace Scalia it should be with Obama if only for maximum salt and Scalia's ghostly salt.

I sat the length of a courtroom away from Scalia when I made the trip to DC to camp out in front of SCOTUS for four days to watch Obergefell in its entirety and I felt slightly queasy just being in close proximity to him. Dude can't go soon enough.

 

[Dixon's Jet]

The Kissinger mention was the line of the evening. Bernie got her to defend Kissinger of all people.

Hillary's for the big banks and the war criminals now. The divide can't be any clearer. Vote Sanders.