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[Spring-Loaded]

Well, that begs the question: If race and gender are only 2 of a hundred different factors that make up a human being, why are we using those to determine if a character or project team or presentation is diverse enough?

There's no such thing as "diverse enough." You'll always be confused by this if you think there's a clear-cut constant for "satisfactory diversity."

Perhaps think of it this way instead: if you can say "there's a lack of diversity among video game developers and characters," then the situation could be better. More diversity in the industry will not be bad — all kinds of diversity, not just race and gender. It won't be harmful, even in your hypothetical "diversity used as a PR band-aid," scenario — part of the benefit of more and more diversity existing is that the perceived need for "PR band-aids," starts to go away.

That does seem to be the two everyone gravitates to. Nobody seems to talk about the poverty stricken person who grew up to make video games, a viewpoint I'd find extremely interesting considering how much of my life was spent in poverty. I wonder if those even exist?

Getting more nonwhite and female people/characters involved/present in the industry does not preclude the existence of those other characteristics. High tide raises all ships.

 

[Rainer70]

Eh, I wouldn't say EventStatus actually research what he says. He's the same as most of us who don't actually know what's going on behind the scenes. Just another angry YouTuber.

Which would actually be interesting if someone within the industry would join in and discuss this topic.

I mean I like the guy because he comes off as real. By research I meant that he takes sides in gaming debates, and when he makes a claim he usually cites his source.

But like I also said in my post, his style of discussion isn't what I want from a diverse podcast, but something like Easy Allies but with a diverse cast with a less corny style (I've only watched a few seconds of one episode due to this impression, if that's not the case, I'm sorry).

 

[Freezie KO]

There's no such thing as "diverse enough." You'll always be confused by this if you think there's a clear-cut constant for "satisfactory diversity."

I'm not the one who wrote an article with a diversity report card.

Perhaps think of it this way instead: if you can say "there's a lack of diversity among video game developers and characters," then the situation could be better. More diversity in the industry will not be bad — all kinds of diversity, not just race and gender. It won't be harmful, even in your hypothetical "diversity used as a PR band-aid," scenario — part of the benefit of more and more diversity existing is that the perceived need for "PR band-aids," starts to go away.

More diversity won't be bad? Probably not, but like everything, it depends on how diversity initiatives are implemented.

Are developers sloppily shoe-horning in romance plots just so they can prove they have LGBT characters? Are quotas being made based on single-criterion metrics such as race? Is press concentrating more on the chromosonal make-up of a development team than the art they put out?

I would say those are negative things. You might disagree, of course.

Diversity can be implemented well when the background of creators emerges in art. But when there are limited resources (funding for games, press attention at E3, etc.), creators and their games are necessarily going to be in competition. I find it more prudent to judge people and projects on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I'm not the one who wrote an article with a diversity report card.



More diversity won't be bad? Probably not, but like everything, it depends on how diversity initiatives are implemented.

Are developers sloppily shoe-horning in romance plots just so they can prove they have LGBT characters? Are quotas being made based on single-criterion metrics such as race? Is press concentrating more on the chromosonal make-up of a development team than the art they put out?

I would say those are negative things. You might disagree, of course.

Diversity can be implemented well when the background of creators emerges in art. And when there are limited resources (funding for games, press attention at E3, etc.), creators and their games are necessarily going to be in competition.

If it's done poorly, then it serves as an example of what not to do. It's absolutely better than no one ever trying.

Same with assessment of diversity — someone slapping arbitrary scores onto their review of a conference is not regressive if it sparks conversation (similar to game reviews, for that matter).

Diversity can be implemented by creator's pulling from their own lives, and from pulling from the stories and lives of others. Both methods are fine, both are valuable, and, until diversity is achieved on the creative side of the industry, both are feasible and perfectly acceptable in the meantime.

EDIT: How is it disputable that the industry could be better off than it currently is? People are mentioning it's a billion dollar industry as if that refutes the value of striving toward diversity, as as if things are as good as they could possibly be.

 

[SarusGray]

If it's done poorly, then it serves as an example of what not to do. It's absolutely better than no one ever trying.

Same with assessment of diversity — someone slapping arbitrary scores onto their review of a conference is not regressive if it sparks conversation (similar to game reviews, for that matter).

Diversity can be implemented by creator's pulling from their own lives, and from pulling from the stories and lives of others. Both methods are fine, both are valuable, and both are until diversity is achieved on the creative side of the industry, both are feasible and perfectly acceptable in the meantime.

Current culture and climate makes it difficult to be "Diverse" without forcing it sadly. I don't know many of the asian communities that push their children to become actors or pursue art. It's very rare and I understand why that field lacks it. The people who pursue these types of jobs are often black or white rather than asian or latino. It'll change when the culture raising these children change and the world shows us that we're viable enough to be leading a role even if we're not white.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I just wanted to note, for people who question the fact that they gave MS credit for having a game that only stars a woman, the reason why they did so is because it is extremely uncommon for a game to only allow players to control a woman.

 

[Freezie KO]

Same with assessment of diversity — someone slapping arbitrary scores onto their review of a conference is not regressive if it sparks conversation (similar to game reviews, for that matter).

I just disagree with this. Boiling any person and their experiences down to their race or gender is as regressive as it gets.

You might see it as a corrective to past injustices, but it's certainly an unenlightened way of assessing people and their work.

 

[Dyson Industries]

I just disagree with this. Boiling any person and their experiences down to their race or gender is as regressive as it gets.

You might see it as a corrective to past injustices, but it's certainly an unenlightened way of assessing people and their work.

Spoken like someone who's never had to question their experiences since they've always been well represented in media.

 

[Moonkid]

Current culture and climate makes it difficult to be "Diverse" without forcing it sadly. I don't know many of the asian communities that push their children to become actors or pursue art. It's very rare and I understand why that field lacks it. The people who pursue these types of jobs are often black or white rather than asian or latino. It'll change when the culture raising these children change and the world shows us that we're viable enough to be leading a role even if we're not white.

While I agree that internal factors such as parental pressure do play a part in the diversity situation, this undermines the obstacles Asians face once they're in the industry trying to make a name for themselves. Diversity won't become better solely through more Asians, or any minority, pursuing the arts, they still have to face a system that positions them unfairly.

 

[Stereogatari]

Do Japanese speakers add to the diversity score? I genuinely wonder since these conferences were once a yellow boy's club.

You've been banned for the "yellow" quipe, but you do raise a good point. Where do the Japanese feature in this debate? Or are they considered part of the traditional hegemony alongside White males?

 

[will341]

.

 

[Onemic]

.

saved yourself from destruction

 

[noctis_pls]

Hey I'm arab, there was no brown people representation :/

 

[Freezie KO]

Spoken like someone who's never had to question their experiences since they've always been well represented in media.

There are a few ways to respond here:

1. I could point out that this is just ad hominem and you didn't actually refute anything I wrote.
2. I could prove that you don't know what you're talking about and bring up personal stories to refute your comment.
3. I could try to turn this around and suggest that you're only using a personal criticism because you have no other way to reconcile your regressive views.

I'll choose #1.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I just disagree with this. Boiling any person and their experiences down to their race or gender is as regressive as it gets.

You might see it as a corrective to past injustices, but it's certainly an unenlightened way of assessing people and their work.

And then the people who are doing that get called out, and others can see how not to assess people and their work. It doesn't undo any progress.

Contrast to no one talking about it because it makes you uncomfortable — anyone who doesn't notice the homogeneity of the industry continues to be ignorant of the issue, anyone who doesn't see how it's bad continues to think it's a non-issue, and diversity growth stagnates.

 

[EloquentM]

Well, that begs the question: If race and gender are only 2 of a hundred different factors that make up a human being, why are we using those to determine if a character or project team or presentation is diverse enough?

Because those are the two biggest qualifiers necessary to meet the current status quo. That is the societal norm in the western world. If you're a male and you're white you're heavily represented in this industry. Literally being white and male gives you privaledge and entitlement. You can't say "I don't see color" or "no one should see color" when that's not how the world works. When everyone is represented in some form or another at a balanced rate then people can say "I don't see color" but this isn't a perfect world. Seeing color and giving opportunities to other people of color is a step in the right direction. The reason people are getting banned is because the status quo should not be the expectation, and whining about a necessary change should not be tolerated, but analyzed, addressed, and embraced. At its simplest form however these banned arguments and posts are just thread whining and noise.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

Ok, gaf, give me the numbers, how many people have been banned already?

I stopped counting after 34.

Threads like these really bring out the uncaring and ignorant. There's nothing wrong with having this discussion about our gaming industry.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Seems strange to give Ubi just 3, feels low for what they showed and talked about.

 

[Epcott]

That's weird, Surprised Ubisoft didn't rate higher: Aisha Tyler <3, a black protag in Watch_Dogs 2, a diverse music game, LeVar THE BOSS Burton, a game about eagles where even animals are represented, a snowboard game where you couldn't tell who was under the snow gear, vikings vs samurai...

Should have been 5/5

Seems strange to give Ubi just 3, feels low for what they showed and talked about.

I know right? Felt like the Guardian just wanted to be negative. I give Ubi a lot of grief, but out of all, they at least try to provide something for everyone. I'm still shocked they released Valiant Hearts (another game with a diverse cast).


I wonder what they thought of Mafia III?

 

[Malyse]

You'd think someone with Atticus Finch in their username would have a better handle on this subject.

Atticus is a racist now. You didn't cop that new Harper Lee?

 

[Uthred]

I think the idea of a diversity report is interesting but I feel this article does the idea a dis-service by boiling it down to something as reductionist as a basic count. They should be taking into account the context and focus of the representation in the overall presentations, e.g. Horizon wasnt just a game with a female protagonist it was one of the longest parts of Sony's presentation and clearly given heavy focus by the company. As mentioned the Ubisoft one seems fairly harshly judged. I'd have liked to see them explain their scale, what would a 5/5 have looked like? So, while this kind of criticism is essential, I'd like to see it done better.

 

[Dr. Buni]

Lol except for the multiple Asian women

Who are all light skinned, even though there are plenty of dark skinned Asian people.

Anyways, this is quite the interesting thread, thanks for posting it.

I'm still surprised we aren't seeing game reviews have their scores dragged down by the sole fact of not having a female or POC protagonist.

"The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild has to be one of the most innovative, immersive, groundbreaking experiences I've ever encountered, and literally every developer needs to takes notes on how to make games fun.

However, the game doesn't allow you to play as a female Link. So we give it a 1/10."

Maybe if that happened minorities would have a bigger space in actual games, since devs do seem to care a lot about what scores their games have.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I was wondering when someone will make this type of thread.

 

[Dr. Buni]

What about Kratos? He's Greek.

Greek is not a race.

Repeat with me.

Greek is not a race.

When will people learn that nationalities are not races? Greek, French, Brazilian, Canadian? NOT races.

 

[plasmawave]

What about Kojima on Sony's conference?

 

[Laughing Banana]

Hey I'm arab, there was no brown people representation :/

You sure you want it? Chances are, any Arab that will appear in a video game nowadays are the ones that the player will shoot at, you know

Anyways, the Guardian can be very... unique... in their way of doing things. Though their intention is good, and it can be a good conversation starter, the way they're scoring things in here seems so... weird.

 

[Zabi]

male men

I shall attempt to explain it because I saw it in a small discussion at a different message board. The whole idea of a "male man" comes from the idea of treating sex and gender separately. In that discussion it was said that a sci-fi could depict a setting in which a person's ID card would separately show their sex and gender. So, a "male man" would be a cisgender male while a "female man" would be a transgender woman. Fortunately, the discussion didn't last long because the person who started it was known for posting nonsense.

PS: If someone already explained it I didn't notice because I skimmed the topic to catch up.

 

[Makai]

They forgot a lot of people. Alex Hunter. Hideo Kojima. The Game.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

For an issue that deserves, nay, necessitates, a cogent and nuanced discussion and analysis, rating this sort of thing on a comical and insulting 1-5 scale like this is insultingly callous and reductionist.

This is the argument against review scores perfectly embodied, except applied to a real issue that effects real societal values (and hell, real people abd careers in this industry) instead of a pointless argument about how to critique a game.

This is the IGN of social commentary. It's not wrong, it is just appealing to the lowest common denominator and it's depressing and disappointing.

 

[Izuna]

Do Japanese speakers add to the diversity score? I genuinely wonder since these conferences were once a yellow boy's club.

Oh holy shit I cannot believe someone made this comment.

--

I still think Ubisoft in particular deserved a 6/5 by this articles standards.

 

[That Brown Guy]

The BBC have an article about this as well

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36546355

 

[EGM1966]

The BBC have an article about this as well

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36546355

Read Guardian one finally. The theme is fine but didn't think scoring was sensible or added anything. As useless as stars for films IMHO. Also thought it could have been better structured.

BBC article only had time to skin but seems better approach at first glance. No scoring, looking at past situation vs current situation and noting a fair degree of improvement.

 

[omnislayer]

Greek is not a race.

Repeat with me.

Greek is not a race.

When will people learn that nationalities are not races? Greek, French, Brazilian, Canadian? NOT races.

Yeah and Kratos was actually dark skinned before he got that bizarre supernatural ash all over his body.

Wow this thread is a graveyard, there's easily gotta be over 40 banned already.

 

[Stereogatari]

Greek is not a race.

Repeat with me.

Greek is not a race.

When will people learn that nationalities are not races? Greek, French, Brazilian, Canadian? NOT races.

Well that is subjective. In American culture and "The New World" the category of race is generally understood to mean a grouping of ethnic groups/descendants of ethnic groups that have similar phenotypical characteristics.

In most countries in the World, the term race is synonymous with ethnicity and any place where that isn't the case has imported the American categorisation (especially common in English speaking countries).

I always bring up my own ethnicity in this because we don't fit neatly into white/non-white categorisation. So are Turks that look white considered white, and Turks that look non-white considered non-white, even though they are both from the exact same ethnic group/culture and both identify their race as Turkish?

It's the same with Greeks. They have a similar diversity and breadth of phenotypes to Turks. Are darker Greeks non-white and lighter Greeks white, even though both are from the same ethnic group and therefore as far as they're probably concerned, the same race.

 

[Mivey]

Man, people here get banned left or right. Not sure if it is related to what the people in question have posted here, but wouldn't surprise me.

I mean, I get when people say they don't care much for diversity as its own goal, buy the way some get riled up about the criticism, and even defend EA, of all people/companies, kind of shows that they do care quite a bit.

To the topic at hand: I feel like the industry is actually getting better at this. Very slowly and considering that we no longer live in the 50s, which is kind of the impression one could get when you look how women were represented in the video game medium for long (not in every game (The Longest Journey came out in 1999!, but the overwhelming majority), there is a bit of catching up to do to reach 2016.

 

[TwiztidElf]

As someone who is sometimes in a position to change things (in non-gaming tech), it's difficult to employ diversity when it's only white guys applying.

 

[Lime]

As someone who is sometimes in a position to change things (in non-gaming tech), it's difficult to employ diversity when it's only white guys applying.

You need to actively seek and court non-majority talent if you want to diversify and improve your company. Im sure the workforce and products will be better for it. (And not just one or two, but several)

 

[Spring-Loaded]

As someone who is sometimes in a position to change things (in non-gaming tech), it's difficult to employ diversity when it's only white guys applying.

It's not merely about accepting applications though. It takes avertising positions in different channels, networking with different people, and so forth.

 

[Dragon Puncher]

Making a diversity report that only focuses on gender seems like a missed opportunity. And giving EA 2/5 when they made the protagonist in the new FIFA (one of the biggest franchises in the world) story mode black, and had like 80% black celebrity's in the Battlefield 1 showing is just dumb.

 

[tomd90]

Jesus Christ is this a parody article or something? I guess next E3 they should have a black female bisexual amputee present a conference for maximum diversity points! Do they not even realise that stupid articles like this are more harmful than a conference not having, what they deem to be, enough women in it?

 

[The Kree]

Jesus Christ is this a parody article or something? I guess next E3 they should have a black female bisexual amputee present a conference for maximum diversity points! Do they not even realise that stupid articles like this are more harmful than a conference not having, what they deem to be, enough women in it?

How is this article more harmful than the games industry doing a poor job of inviting half the human population to participate within its ranks?

 

[SerTapTap]

I'd largely agree with the article's assessments. It was an okay year, better than usual even. Nothing impressive but it doesn't fit the stereotype (entirely) either.

Interestingly Sony would have probably had notably better diversity if not for some of the games they pushed to post/preshow. Bound and Gravity Rush are more diverse in both style and character diversity, but missed the show. If only they could have crammed both in instead of that Day Gone live demo...once Zombies were on screen it was the one mistake of the conf imo.

 

[BigDes]

Jesus Christ is this a parody article or something? I guess next E3 they should have a black female bisexual amputee present a conference for maximum diversity points! Do they not even realise that stupid articles like this are more harmful than a conference not having, what they deem to be, enough women in it?

Why do you guys always go off the rails so hard whenever diversity is mentioned

black female bisexual amputee

I can almost feel your typing getting quicker as you type this.

 

[Figboy79]

It's just so damn disconcerting.

Progress will never be made when so many on the other side either dismiss the claims outright, or get stupendously defensive and view a call for open thinking as an attack on them. It's frustrating.

As I mentioned in my other post, nobody is saying that white males should disappear from the gaming landscape at all. Minorities and women are saying that it'd be pretty swell if the gaming industry (and any industry, really), were more open and inviting to minorities and women (this includes LGBT groups as well, of course). It is well documented that the industry has an issue with taking women seriously (again, not exclusive to the gaming industry, but this topic is about the gaming industry). I provided an anecdote some pages back, but it's a very hostile, aggressive, and uncomfortable environment for women. I've worked at a lot of gaming companies, and with a few exceptions (Obsidian was fucking amazing, as is Capcom), the way minorities and women are treated and spoken to is startling. And God help you if you're an attractive woman. It becomes either a madhouse of horny staff, or a "You'll want to protect her" level of condescension.

I think with the current discussion about diversity and representation in games, and the industry at large, things are improving bit by bit. We shouldn't stop calling it out when we feel we're being ignored or under-represented, and people really need to stop getting so god damned defensive when it's brought up. We aren't trying to take over the industry. We want to join in and be a part of it. America in general has a long fucking way to go before it reaches real equality between people, but it'd be kind of cool if the gaming industry, of which so many people, of all walks of life, adore and have passion for, could be one of the first bastions of it in society. Nobody should be made to feel that they aren't welcome, but threads like this, and the comment sections of a ton of articles on this subject, show me we have a really fucking long way to go. Gaming isn't just a boys club, and it's certainly not just a white boys club. Everyone should feel comfortable partaking in this fucking hobby. And no, white is not the default, and having more non-white male protagonists isn't going to collapse the industry. Jesus it gets frustrating. I try to remain calm and measured, but after a lifetime of this shit, it just wears on a dude.

 

[prag16]

You need to actively seek and court non-majority talent if you want to diversify and improve your company. Im sure the workforce and products will be better for it. (And not just one or two, but several)

It's not merely about accepting applications though. It takes avertising positions in different channels, networking with different people, and so forth.

Maybe, but when hiring, it's very costly and time consuming to actively try to seek out people who aren't necessarily even interested in what you do. Everyone has access to online job postings on all the major sites. I'm not sure what more you're reasonably expecting twiztidelf to do.

The other implication also seems to be that job qualifications shouldn't be the main focus. Maybe hiring potential on-paper-less-qualified people due to their diversity can improve the company. But that's a "risk" at that point that may not pan out vs. hiring the more qualified candidate. If the "diverse" candidates are best qualified everybody wins, but the sentiment seems to be that other factors should be more important. That's not going to fly with most hiring managers in the real world.

 

[Respect]

It's just so damn disconcerting.

Progress will never be made when so many on the other side either dismiss the claims outright, or get stupendously defensive and view a call for open thinking as an attack on them. It's frustrating.

As I mentioned in my other post, nobody is saying that white males should disappear from the gaming landscape at all. Minorities and women are saying that it'd be pretty swell if the gaming industry (and any industry, really), were more open and inviting to minorities and women (this includes LGBT groups as well, of course). It is well documented that the industry has an issue with taking women seriously (again, not exclusive to the gaming industry, but this topic is about the gaming industry). I provided an anecdote some pages back, but it's a very hostile, aggressive, and uncomfortable environment for women. I've worked at a lot of gaming companies, and with a few exceptions (Obsidian was fucking amazing, as is Capcom), the way minorities and women are treated and spoken to is startling. And God help you if you're an attractive woman. It becomes either a madhouse of horny staff, or a "You'll want to protect her" level of condescension.

I think with the current discussion about diversity and representation in games, and the industry at large, things are improving bit by bit. We shouldn't stop calling it out when we feel we're being ignored or under-represented, and people really need to stop getting so god damned defensive when it's brought up. We aren't trying to take over the industry. We want to join in and be a part of it. America in general has a long fucking way to go before it reaches real equality between people, but it'd be kind of cool if the gaming industry, of which so many people, of all walks of life, adore and have passion for, could be one of the first bastions of it in society. Nobody should be made to feel that they aren't welcome, but threads like this, and the comment sections of a ton of articles on this subject, show me we have a really fucking long way to go. Gaming isn't just a boys club, and it's certainly not just a white boys club. Everyone should feel comfortable partaking in this fucking hobby. And no, white is not the default, and having more non-white male protagonists isn't going to collapse the industry. Jesus it gets frustrating. I try to remain calm and measured, but after a lifetime of this shit, it just wears on a dude.

It is disconcerting, I always figured the average poster on GAF to be more progressive on social issues...I think that is still the case, but it was genuinely depressing and irritating to read through this thread and see how many people got up in arms over this discussion and just wanted it to go away. The apathetic attitudes others displayed wasn't much better either.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Did they merge white ppl with asians? I'm sure I saw some Asians in the screenshots (pale as fk but comes with being a gamer)

 

[Giever]

EDIT: Never mind, not worth going back and forth about.

 

[TwiztidElf]

You need to actively seek and court non-majority talent if you want to diversify and improve your company. Im sure the workforce and products will be better for it. (And not just one or two, but several)

Yeah, I'm not really in a position to do that, but the company i'm in definitely does do a lot in this area.

 

[KonradLaw]

So Poles have not been marginalized in hiring practices and general day to day life in the Western World which would thereby have an impact on their role in the video game industry.

Got it.

I seem to remember writing a thread about this last year asking for everyone to share our dreams about the games we'd like to see created. And that I've participated in threads advocating for ethnic diversity for quite some time.

But I guess I just can't talk about Poles and Slavs. Nope, cuz "lol white people."

Yeah. I kind of accepted that we slavs will always just be reduced to criminals, drunkards and crazy people (often a mix of two of those or all three) in western media. If we want our culture and ethnicity represented in videogames we'll just have to make those games ourself, which thankfully is happening more and more often.

Sure, it's sad when americans end up being slightly racists towards slavic culture, denying it's existence and just lumping it with the general american white cultrue (which then is often said to not even exist, therefore slavic culture does't exist either), but in the end it's not something intentional. It doesn't come from ill will, it's just ignorance caused by american privilege, where they by default. assume the whole world works like USA does. Getting angry at them won't do much. We just have to keep making our slavic games and hope they will make westerners learn about our culture and history. And when somebody starts to criticize us for some slavic games not having other minorities we should just ignore that and do continue doing our thing.