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[Lime]

People who are invoking Witcher 3 as some sort of representative beacon that acknowledges Polish/Slavic culture and therefore is entirely entitled to white-wash the entire game with zero non-White people, don't realize how Polish developers should do more to recognize non-White people. A lot of racism is taking place at the moment in Poland (and surprise: non-White Polish people do exist), so having some sort of recognition and inclusion of this way of being Polish would be on way to normalize being a non-White Polish in Polish media. My Polish friends are similarly concerned when they see that people are using a Polish video game to argue that Slavic culture with "dragons and trolls and vampires" should be entirely White.

People are basically arguing "Slavic culture = Only White People", which is a bit concerning, along with "claims of diversity is only an American issue". No, diversity is a European and Polish issue, and Slavic culture *is not* only White People.

 

[?oe?oe]

What always astounds me how that white boys get so upset and insecure about this even being questioned. I hate to pull the privilege card but here we are.

Real life is full of diverse people and cultures, majority of media is white as fuck and that is disheartening. TV, movies, games - chock-a-block full of whiteness. White people are represented in the media positively, everyone else are barely represented or if they are it's negative. Think about that for a second while banned folks, your mind is molded by whiteness as evident by your posts.

I say this as a white man.

 

[KonradLaw]

People who are invoking Witcher 3 as some sort of representative beacon that acknowledges Polish/Slavic culture and therefore is entirely entitled to white-wash the entire game with zero non-White people, .

It is entitled to do just that. You argument isn't really "there should be more diversity", but "there should be ZERO slavic games with all white cast". Which is ridiculous. And please, don't try to pretend it's not like this. Because polish industry producing awful lot of games each year and a lot of them do star diverse casts. It's not like anyone from Poland would dream of making Dying Light star only white people just because it's made by slavs. And there's no way Cyberpunk will be white-only.
Witcher is the sole example of anything recognizable from Poland that focused on slavic folkore and has white cast and even that is really pushing it, because it's true solely for one game and one add-on, while ignoring two whole games and one big add-on where poc did appear. . So apparently we can't make even one game every couple that's not diverse? Screw that.

If some minority wants to see itself represented then it can go and make the damn games itself. This is what poles did and nobody gets the right to demand them to suddenly drop that and become a factory dedicated solely to serving other ethnicities. Other ethnicities sure as hell aren't making any slavic games at all, so we're already ahead of the curve diversity-wise anyway.

 

[Lime]

If some minority wants to see itself represented then it can go and make the damn games itself. This is what poles did and nobody gets the right to demand them to suddenly drop that and become a factory dedicated solely to serving other ethnicities. Other ethnicities sure as hell aren't making any slavic games at all, so we're already ahead of the curve diversity-wise anyway.

You're assuming that all Poles are White. What about non-White Poles? Why shouldn't they get represented?

And if their products are catered to international audiences any way, why not think about the other identities that live around the world? You already have English and Americans voice actors playing the part in a supposedly Polish game, so not sure why other types of representation couldn't be included? Anyway, I'm mostly addressing you with your "Slavic culture = Only White People" and not CDProjekt since they somewhat tried to correct it in HoS.

And no one is saying that there should be zero all-white Polish games.

 

[KonradLaw]

You're assuming that all Poles are White. What about non-White Poles? Why shouldn't they get represented?

Because there are extremely few of them and their existence is very recent phenomenon, so putting it in game is inspired by medieval period wouldn't make much sense.
And even in modern title. I don't think almost non-existant statistically minority is big enough to demand every single polish game to include them. Because we're not talking about there being no pocs in all games coming from Poland, but about somehow one specific game with white cast apparently being to much.

And if their products are catered to international audiences any way, why not think about the other identities that live around the world? You already have English and Americans voice actors playing the part, so not sure why they couldn't be included?

Because I want real diversity in gaming. And this is what polish-specific Witcher achieves better than generic multicultural game does.
You would have an argument there if somehow Witcher remained the sole game in the world. But it's not and the market is filled with diverse internally games being designed in countries that are multicultural melting pots. Witcher is worth more as uniquelly polish title than 100th multicultural one.

It's not like polish devs don't make plenty of other games that appeal to international audiences. Techland sure as hell didn't put only white people in Dead Island and Dying Light, nor did Flying Wild Hog turn Shadow Warrior's Lo Wang into polish ninja. And there's no way CD Projekt RED's Cyberpunk will only have white cast.

So really..what you're complaining at is one polish dev having audacity to make a game about slavic culture with casts that represents how vast majority (we're talking over 99% today and it would far more in medieval times) of modern polish population looks like. And it' a dev that already did include minorities in it's past games and will in the past. Do you really think you truly have a cause to complain about here?

 

[Asriel]

You're assuming that all Poles are White. What about non-White Poles? Why shouldn't they get represented?

And if their products are catered to international audiences any way, why not think about the other identities that live around the world? You already have English and Americans voice actors playing the part in a supposedly Polish game, so not sure why other types of representation couldn't be included? Anyway, I'm mostly addressing you with your "Slavic culture = Only White People" and not CDProjekt since they somewhat tried to correct it in HoS.

And no one is saying that there should be zero all-white Polish games.

It's funny how those claiming American racism towards Slavs (which is ridiculous, btw) don't seem to want to answer this question.

 

[Asriel]

Because there are extremely few of them and their existence is very recent phenomenon, so putting it in game is inspired by medieval period wouldn't make much sense.
And even in modern title. I don't think almost non-existant statistically minority is big enough to demand every single polish game to include them. Because we're not talking about there being no pocs in all games coming from Poland, but about somehow one specific game with white cast apparently being to much.



Because I want real diversity in gaming. And this is what polish-specific Witcher achieves better than generic multicultural game does.
You would have an argument there if somehow Witcher remained the sole game in the world. But it's not and the market is filled with diverse internally games being designed in countries that are multicultural melting pots. Witcher is worth more as uniquelly polish title than 100th multicultural one.

It's not like polish devs don't make plenty of other games that appeal to international audiences. Techland sure as hell didn't put only white people in Dead Island and Dying Light, nor did Flying Wild Hog turn Shadow Warrior's Lo Wang into polish ninja. And there's no way CD Projekt RED's Cyberpunk will only have white cast.

So really..what you're complaining at is one polish dev having audacity to make a game about slavic culture with casts that represents how vast majority (we're talking over 99% today and it would far more in medieval times) of modern polish population looks like. And it' a dev that already did include minorities in it's past games and will in the past. Do you really think you truly have a cause to complain about here?

WTF is this supposed to mean?

 

[Lime]

We're getting way off-topic here, not sure the mods approve. PM me if you want to continue, KonradLaw.

 

[KonradLaw]

WTF is this supposed to mean?

I will use example. Let's imagine you have money to fund ten great RPG games.
Which do you think will create more diversity in the medium of videogames as a whole?

A batch of 10 diversity-focused, but generic Dragon Age: Inquisition-like titles
Or a batch of 10 games, among which ..say 6 are DA:I like diverse ones, but the remaining four are set fantasy worlds based on Slavic, African, Native American and India's folklores.

I would say the second batch would do more to diversity of the whole medium, despite the games itself not being diverse on their own.

It's the same with any medium. Your movie viewing hobby will have more diversity if alongside american movies you also watch some polish, african, bollywood or japanese ones than if you would watch solely american ones, despite those american ones being more diverse on average when it comes to their casts.

 

[Asriel]

I will use example. Let's imagine you have money to fund ten great RPG games.
Which do you think will create more diversity in the medium of videogames as a whole?

A batch of 10 diversity-focused, but generic Dragon Age: Inquisition-like titles
Or a batch of 10 games, among which ..say 6 are DA:I like diverse ones, but the remaining four are set fantasy worlds based on Slavic, African, Native American and India's folklores.

I would say the second batch would do more to diversity of the whole medium, despite the games itself not being diverse on their own.

It's the same with any medium. Your movie viewing hobby will have more diversity if alongside american movies you also watch some polish, african, bollywood or japanese ones than if you would watch solely american ones, despite those american ones being more diverse on average when it comes to their casts.

OK. So we want fantasy worlds based on Slavic, African, Native American and Indian folklore.

Are you saying that a game with a Slavic base is good enough? We don't need the fantasy worlds based on other folklore?

 

[patapuf]

People are way too quick to dismiss cultural diversity vs "representation" by skin colour.

Not all black people are african americans, not all "white people" share the same cultural background (and there's marginalized white ethnities as well). Ditto with the plethora of asian ethnities.

There may be quite a few big european studios but seemingly at least half of them make games with stories from an american perspective, about american cities ect.

Massvie, Dice, 2K Marin, Rockstar.. ect....

I'm not going to knock a studio like CDP that has it's first (!) major mainstream sucess for not immediately catering to the rest of the world.



To be on topic, it's nice things are spreading out a bit.

 

[KonradLaw]

Are you saying that a game with a Slavic base is good enough? We don't need the fantasy worlds based on other folklore?

On the contrary. I think we need more and more games that focus on specific cultures, folkores and ethnic groups. I love Witcher's slavic setting, but I also adored Never Alone and Aurion: Legacy of the Kori-Odan.

We do need games that are diverse on their own. With diverse casts and multicultural societies. But there's also a huge value in games that zero in on a very specific culture, because they can explore it in far bigger detail than if they would be just one of many inside the same game world.

 

[Asriel]

On the contrary. I think we need more and more games that focus on specific cultures, folkores and ethnic groups. I love Witcher's slavic setting, but I also adored Never Alone and Aurion: Legacy of the Kori-Odan.

We do need games that are diverse on their own. With diverse casts and multicultural societies. But there's also a huge value in games that zero in on a very specific culture, because they can explore it in far bigger detail than if they would be just one of many inside the same game world.

OK, so we agree then.

The great thing about diversity is just that; differentiation. I love The Witcher's version of Polish culture but at the same time can wish for other forms of diversity in setting and character.

 

[Respect]

What always astounds me how that white boys get so upset and insecure about this even being questioned. I hate to pull the privilege card but here we are.

Real life is full of diverse people and cultures, majority of media is white as fuck and that is disheartening. TV, movies, games - chock-a-block full of whiteness. White people are represented in the media positively, everyone else are barely represented or if they are it's negative. Think about that for a second while banned folks, your mind is molded by whiteness as evident by your posts.

I say this as a white man.

Most of it is related to perspective. People have their viewpoint and don't think about someone else's point of view. There is a desire to separate "my video games" and "race/gender discussion," but that isn't how real life works. Much of the first few pages consisted of the general attitude: "This is pointless, I don't think about this stuff like that at all, it shouldn't matter." It doesn't matter to them, because it isn't something they have had to deal with throughout their life. I say this as a white male also.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Maybe, but when hiring, it's very costly and time consuming to actively try to seek out people who aren't necessarily even interested in what you do. Everyone has access to online job postings on all the major sites. I'm not sure what more you're reasonably expecting twiztidelf to do.

The other implication also seems to be that job qualifications shouldn't be the main focus. Maybe hiring potential on-paper-less-qualified people due to their diversity can improve the company. But that's a "risk" at that point that may not pan out vs. hiring the more qualified candidate. If the "diverse" candidates are best qualified everybody wins, but the sentiment seems to be that other factors should be more important. That's not going to fly with most hiring managers in the real world.

I said it's not about which applications are chosen. It's not a matter of hiring one person over another based on nationality and background.

It's about making sure more people have the opportunity and awareness to apply in the first place.

If there are swathes of people who never see a given company's job recruiters visit their school, never see that company's job postings, and never hear about an opening through word-of-mouth because they're not already among friends/family who have connections (a really important way of learning about and getting a job) and they never apply, then who's to say the existing hires were actually the most qualified for the job? They just happen to be the ones who knew about it.

It's really, really dangers that you suggest anyone advocating for diversity is advocating for placing "other factors," above the actual qualifications needed for a job. That is definitely not the case, and makes it sound as if you automatically assume that a hire who comes from a different background compared to the norm must have been chosen for that reason — that's a really dangerous, virulent strain of thought. If that's the first thing you think of, it's really important you reassess your understanding of diversity.

This episode of the internet-focused podcast Reply All is helpful is showing the benefit to having a diverse workplace, and speaks to how some people/companies will staunchly cling to any justification to keep their companies very white and male, even if those aren't the reasons cited.