Updates of any sort lose their meaning when they don't result in people getting their hands on what's talked about. Transparency is good and all, but why should I believe they aren't blowing smoke up people's asses?
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Star Citizen Backer Successfully Gets $2550 Refund
- Thread starter wesleyshark
- Start date
Updates of any sort lose their meaning when they don't result in people getting their hands on what's talked about. Transparency is good and all, but why should I believe they aren't blowing smoke up people's asses?
Easton Dark
Member
Do you want updates or do you want them to slap a 1.0 onto the build version to make yourself feel better?
It's not meant to be a purchase. It's a donation in confidence.
its becoming harder and harder to make that argument the longer it takes for them to produce anything of worth.
over 110 million, 4 years and counting and still in alpha...
benicillin
Banned
People should rightly be skeptical and annoyed that the game has taken so long and doesn't seem to be anywhere near the state it should be in. The Stockholm Syndrome backers seem to have for a game that is probably never going to come out is totally bizarre to me.
RubberJohnny
Banned
The updates are mostly about ship sales and ship concepts and selling you merchandise and selling you new in-game clothing rather than any actually new stuff that's coming.
https://youtu.be/i3rqgoYxh0o
There's so little new coming that's actually shown, the major thing they've been talking about for months has been a single pirate space station. Just more words words words of what's planned, don't stop believing!
I already mentioned the "7 landing zones in various states of completion". That's it, that's all they have after four years, and they need 100 landing zones for the finished game.
wesleyshark
Banned
Blind faith. Little regard to sound investment haha
coughlanio
Member
There's a guy on Reddit who's spent like $30k on the game. I'm in for $36, and I feel like that's too much, but happy to have my stake in the train wreck. Can't imagine how the guy who's in for $30k feels (AFAIK, he's not a *super* rich guy, he actually worked a couple of extra jobs to pay for his pledges).
EDIT: Write up on PC Gamer about the same guy: http://www.pcgamer.com/meet-a-fan-who-has-spent-30000-on-star-citizen-ships/
EDIT: Write up on PC Gamer about the same guy: http://www.pcgamer.com/meet-a-fan-who-has-spent-30000-on-star-citizen-ships/
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Holy fuck if some of you had played open world games while they were in development it would've blown your mind that these games got finished. Game development, especially borderline MMOs, take a very long time to complete.
Actually people should be annoyed at the constant transparency about how little people on this forum know how game development works. Because the prevailing logic seems to be:it made x amount of money, it should come out faster.
I do think it's hard to call it a scam because I genuinely don't think they're trying to swindle people out of money. If anything, I think they're trying to swim out of a pool that might be deeper than they thought when they dove in.
Then don't give us a timeline you can't stick to.
Not all of us are people that are hyper-invested in the process of making videogames. Not all of us particularly care. We back something because it looks cool and the timeline sounds reasonable and when that timeline doesn't work out--there's an understandable breach of trust.
Asking every single person to understand how game development takes a long time is asinine. The onus isn't on the consumer to understand how the sausage is made.
What state should the game be in?
The amazing thing is that they seemingly get a couple of million every month, from the crazies buying endgame spaceships and crap.
They don't though. They just need 100 systems. They don't have to be inhabited.
And lets be realistic here, they just need the mechanics finished and fun to be successful. If the game is fun, they could be in Beta with 10 systems for another few years and all the criticism will just fade away. Or even just a fun SQ42 campaign. A fun campaign will buy them years for the MMO portion of the game.
Not really shocking I suppose. They went from 2 million to 100 million since then. I feel like the game would be much closer to completion if they had that kind of money from the get go.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Pretty sure this is the game my husband's friend dropped $5,000-$10,000 on... Yikes.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Barely anyone is actually working on the game called "Star Citizen", they're all working on Squadron42, which is why the pace of development is so slow. People are deluding themselves that development will pick up once that game is out, but really those devs are going to work on Episode 2 and 3 straight afterwards.
I think it's a bit unacceptable that charitably they'll only begin working on the game full-time after Episode 3 ships, around 2024.
You're dodging the point that there's no big load of stuff done for Star Citizen between closed doors. Everyone is on Squadron42.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
So how many years left before we find out somebody built a mansion with some of the 117M?
You know what's a scam? Project Phoenix. I don't feel like this is. They release builds for modules on occasion for people to play and also constantly show videos of their progression with the game.
The only reason this is catching so much flak is because of the amount of money thrown at it and the scope of it. There are so many crowdfunded games out there that are in way worse shape and/or actually turned out to be scams.
The only reason this is catching so much flak is because of the amount of money thrown at it and the scope of it. There are so many crowdfunded games out there that are in way worse shape and/or actually turned out to be scams.
Exactly. If that were the case, Microsoft would be "crowdfunding" windows 10 and all its other stuff, because then they can do whatever they like and no one is entitled to any type of restitution or a finished product. "You just donated, we have no obligation to do what we said we'd do", is a shitty way to do business.
I also think that these articles should have noted that this process is only necessary in North America, because the consumer protection laws there are weak. If you're in the EU or Australia, the TOS means nothing and you can get your money back whenever you feel like it because in-game purchases and digital game pre-orders are considered purchases and CIG/RSI haven't delivered on them yet.
RubberJohnny
Banned
You know how Godus had a build out that people could play for like 18 months, but the game was nothing like what was actually promised and development was so obviously on the back burner that it never would get to that point? Because that's kind of the closest comparison.
Overpromised like mad, basically said "yes you can do this in the game" to any question a backer asked for years, and then fell through when it came to actually implementing.
wipeout364
Member
What I find sad is that they had Derek Smart as a backer so they could have brought him in to show them how to deliver critically acclaimed content on time, on budget and generate tons of revenue. But now they have ostracized him and things have been going downhill ever since. Just ask Derek.
What are you talking about? There is a ton of stuff that isn't in the Alpha that is obviously being worked on. It's not even behind closed doors, you just need to read the monthly reports. Mining progress, cargo progress, Tony Zurovek just announced on yesterday's episode of AtV that they're finalizing the first implementations of commodities and pricing for trading.
Just because it's not in the playable alpha doesn't mean anything.
boviscopophobic
Member
Do you really want to know that? Star Citizen is a whale blubber extraction operation par excellence. There are at least 89 people who spent over $15000 on Star Citizen. A rough order of magnitude estimate is that over 50% of the funding comes from people spending $1000+. (High Admiral, Grand Admiral, Space Marshal, Lieutenant Commander, Wing Commander, Completionist)
I don't believe it's a scam in the literal sense. I don't think anyone set out to dupe people and not make a game. I think it's been horrendously mismanaged and that the game is in very real peril of never seeing the light of day.
Trying to deny refunds when people have every right to them isn't a scam, but it is awful sleazy.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Honestly if you aren't just a little informed about the process of game development then you probably shouldn't be backing projects, especially ones that promise to be huge systemic open worlds let alone a persistent universe focused on pvp.
Game development is a lot more complex and time consuming than dev diaries would have you believe. It takes a long time just to get things playable let alone how long it takes things to get finalized.
Reckheim
Member
Honestly, if you want to look at a great example of a game that did kickstarter right look at elite dangerous, they delivered a base game at the beginning which was exactly what they promised. Anything beyond that (such as planetary landings, space legs) were said to be put into the game at a later date with paid expansions.
Games like this take time, promising the world and expecting the developer to deliver in a 2-3 year time is unrealistic. people should of had their expectations in line when they backed the kickstarter.
Games like this take time, promising the world and expecting the developer to deliver in a 2-3 year time is unrealistic. people should of had their expectations in line when they backed the kickstarter.
I was going to, but for some reason I can no longer find "Line of Defense: LOD" on Steam. I think there might be something wrong with my client.
I hope this sets a precedent for backers to recoup some, if not all of their money, from terrible managed projects. My favorite line is this:
"..according to a recent case in Washington, a person who "crowfunds" a project has the same legal benefits as any consumer of a product. This means if I agree to a specific date of delivery and you fail to deliver a product by that date, I am entitled to a refund."
You fucking right you are. If the product is not also the same product that you funded, then you should get a refund as well. Good on him for standing firm.
I hate it when people think that people on a project are beholden to no rules or regulations and if they fail to deliver a project as specified or on time as specified by them, then it's completely on the backer.
"..according to a recent case in Washington, a person who "crowfunds" a project has the same legal benefits as any consumer of a product. This means if I agree to a specific date of delivery and you fail to deliver a product by that date, I am entitled to a refund."
You fucking right you are. If the product is not also the same product that you funded, then you should get a refund as well. Good on him for standing firm.
I hate it when people think that people on a project are beholden to no rules or regulations and if they fail to deliver a project as specified or on time as specified by them, then it's completely on the backer.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Taking a bit longer eh? Now that is an understatement.
RubberJohnny
Banned
And Star Marine is "weeks, not months" away. Words are wind from this company.
How will cargo work?
We have a design doc, but it was written by a community manager with no understanding of code, so it involves crazy stuff like the physics on every bit of cargo being simulated and held in place by webbing that could get damaged so cargo could go flying and the server has to handle this infinite physics and netcode bomb within someones ship for the game design goal of them having to grab floating boxes and put them back. It is likely completely unworkable.
It also doesn't even describe how the cargo system will work outside of generalities. We have a bunch of differently sized cargo containers, but each ship has a differently sized and located cargo compartment. So to automatically load them, they'll need robotic arms with unique loading animations for each ship and container, and some ships block the ability to go in and out of the ship when the cargo bay is full (no OSHA in the future!) Where are these loading and unloading zones going to be around stations? How fast will they be? How many will there be? And then some cargo ships like the Hull Series can't even land on pads, they require their own unique docking and loading and unloading apparatus and we don't even know what that looks like or how ubiquitous they're going to be.
How much do you actually know, and how much is just an empty assurance that "we're working on the game!"
You're not a consumer, you've merely donated to a project
I would expect people to do some research into a cause before donating
Woo-Fu
Banned
Your definition of good progress seems to differ from the norm.
Going to be interesting to watch what happens when the money runs out before the game is "done".
wesleyshark
Banned
It's not a donation.
I agree on both sides, I think. I've backed many Kickstarters and my broad attitude is simply that I crowdfund to give people the financial leeway to fail or make mistakes; my broad attitude is that if I were to claim the funds back, I'm going against the very reason I backed in the first place; I'd only seek restitution if there was an explicit scam I'd backed, or if the project gets canned and the manager offers compensation of some description.
But that said, and in the specific case of Star Citizen, I will admit that I am a little discouraged by the direction of development (I backed largely for Squadron 42, and I feel that that's got somewhat put to the side, but we should be seeing it this year sometime); I can understand having discomfort about what the project has become.
You ARE a consumer and it is NOT a donation.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Ah, now we've got the "you don't understand game development" line brought out in defence. BINGO, B-I-N-G-O!
What part of good game development involves making finished assets before you even have a design down, so you have to redo them constantly?
What part of not having a polycount budget for anything, so assets vary wildly in quality and need scrapping is good game development?
What's good game development at having an internal development environment so haphazard you have to stop giving deadlines entirely because you can't hit them, or even guarantee what's in them a week before launch?
But what if you sell lemonade to your brother for $1000 and he gives you a tote bag with a non-profit charity and a tax receipt inside? Surely you are a consumer then?!
StarStabbedMoon
Member
I understand that. I understand that game development takes a lot of time. I totally do, but you can't argue against a breach of trust.
But saying people shouldn't donate to projects if they think something looks cool is but don't understand game development is... Well, I'd say a lot more kickstarters would flop. I'd hazard a guess and say that the majority of people don't know how the game is made; They just know what they're being told and think that sounds cool. I donated to a Kickstarter that made wooden spellbooks for tabletop-related goodies. Should I have not donated since I don't understand carpentry whatsoever?
The line between consumer and someone who donates is getting thinner and thinner. Especially with Kickstarter things and the ability to get refunds--can I get a refund from the Red Cross if I donate to their cause?
And what kind of research? What kind of easily accessible research is available to people that tells them how difficult it is to implement a physics engine, or how certain engines are hard to work with?
GAF knows because insiders talk about it and we're enthusiasts. The expectation that people should do actual, factual research when the entire point of a Kickstarter campaign is, "LOOK AT THIS SHINEY STUFF. LOOK AT OUR PITCH. LOOK AT ALL THIS INFORMATION WE'RE GIVING YOU!" is the precise kind of marketing that keeps people from wanting to do research. It's the reason Kickstarter now requires a working prototype. You can't just blow smoke up people's asses without showing that you're capable of what you're saying you can do.
And it works. It's proven time and time again that it works. Telling people to get better educated is fine and all, but it's never going to happen.
To be fair, multiply the number by a few thousand or so and you've basically got the modern professional publisher model, and a number of those get canned despite having money pumped into them!
wesleyshark
Banned
You're comparing the Red Cross to Kickstarter?
No, I'm comparing being a consumer to being someone who donates. Glad you nitpicked that one example, though! Hell, can I write off a Kickstarter donation on my taxes? I'd love to do that!
Woo-Fu
Banned
It is all relative. Make $150k a year and 2500 for the game of your dreams isn't that big of a deal. Now if the guy only makes $10k/year he might have a problem.
You are absolutely 100% legally a consumer if you backed a Kickstarter project with tangible rewards associated to the amount you pledged for. It's a donation at those low-end $5ish levels where it says "you get our thanks!" kind of thing, but anything beyond that where they say "you get a copy of the game and [list of specific fabulous items]" is 100% a straight financial transaction, and legal recourse is possible if said items aren't delivered.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Not sure why you are holding on to this idea that it's not a pre-order.
What they do with that money doesn't matter to the consumer. You are purchasing a product. The idea that kickstarter is about donating to a fun for something like this is asinine.
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