It always amazes me how quickly people rush to dive on their swords in these Anita threads.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Feminist Frequency: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Review
- Thread starter lightskintwin
- Start date
It always amazes me how quickly people rush to dive on their swords in these Anita threads.
Interesting review, I was already waiting and seeing for this game and wanted to see what people thought once the two week honeymoon period is over.
I found HR got to be a bit of a drag after a while and Jensens droning voice didn't help proceedings, was hoping this was going to fix those issues. Will see what people say soon.
I found HR got to be a bit of a drag after a while and Jensens droning voice didn't help proceedings, was hoping this was going to fix those issues. Will see what people say soon.
I liked the review and format. Got its points across without over-egging anything. I did wonder whether it would follow-through with its heavy-handed oppression narrative, sounds like they ballsed it up.
I did wonder how a group of people who (mostly) voluntarily augmented themselves into superior beings can really be oppressed...
I did wonder how a group of people who (mostly) voluntarily augmented themselves into superior beings can really be oppressed...
On topic of the review - I can't judge it properly having not played the game!
What's the problem with that? I would consider myself a feminist - ie someone that believes in the equal rights of women to men. Lot of men feel that way, same as with mens rights. When it goes overboard for either side trying to push one as better than the other and deserving of different treatment - that's the only problem
What's the problem with that? I would consider myself a feminist - ie someone that believes in the equal rights of women to men. Lot of men feel that way, same as with mens rights. When it goes overboard for either side trying to push one as better than the other and deserving of different treatment - that's the only problem
The problem is also that this is a multimillion dollar product that has to appease everyone and not rock the (gaming culture) boat, so what we end up with is a status quo entertainment product that has no bite and doesn't really say anything (other than the status quo is cool)
If it's not the financial risks involved and they actually had free reigns, then I guess it's just the directors and writers of the game who actually want to convey this sort of message
If it's not the financial risks involved and they actually had free reigns, then I guess it's just the directors and writers of the game who actually want to convey this sort of message
Coffee Dog
Banned
Is a game about the oppression of robot people really ever going to address the real world status quo in any meaningful way though? Like with the X-Men, you were never going to get something that parallels real world struggles in any way other than the most cosmetic and surface level due to the fantastical nature of the source material.
It's silly to criticize something for not having "bite" when it isn't even dealing with real world issues. That's why the scant "aug lives matter" stuff doesn't amount to anything more than background decals. It's very clearly fictional oppression of fictional superpeople in a fictional setting for an over the top fictional reason (50 million people lol).
To your first paragraph... yes, it could. The X-Men might be a bad example because they're mass market characters that need to have broad appeal. Alan Moore's work, Neil Gaiman's, Grant Morrison's, etc., uses characters with fantastic abilities to provide commentary about "normal" people generally. And perhaps more relevant to Deus Ex, they certainly address the intersection of normal people with "gods," which is something the series has addressed as early as the opening cutscene for the original game.
So the issue isn't so much that people with fantastic abilities cannot be used to tell deeply personal stories about regular people. It's that the game has a big budget and needs to sell in the millions to have a decent ROI. So they're probably going to make the game as appealing as possible, and as easy to digest as possible, because that's where the money probably is.
Which is fine, I have no issues with big budget devs chasing dollars by making a game with broad appeal. Shit, it's why the trailers for the game feature Jensen going HAM on fools, when we all know that Deus Ex is really about crawling through vents and selecting smarmy dialog options.
But if you're going to use "aug lives matter" and "mechanical apartheid" as mere window dressing, you should be expected to get called out on that being garbage. I don't particularly care about whether or not is offensive, but I do care that it's lazy, cheap heat.
I don't think anyone here is really arguing this. People seem to be critical of the quality of the story told. Particularly that it seems to mistake nuance with "being in the middle". That's pretty messy whenhandling themes that deal with oppression and especially when it draws clear parallels with various real life anti-oppression movements.
I love Petit's writing in general and she is spot on here. It's reminiscent of BioShock Infinite which
went for the "both sides are monsters" route of cop out storytelling. That Eidos appropriated BLM and iconic examples of apartheid while doing this is as laughable as it is offensive. This game can fuck off into orbit.
turned an oppressed group that were little more than slaves, rising up against the white ruling class into child murderers because the writers were cowards and
"Unfortunately the game lacks any moral convictions and ultimate doesn't have anything to say about the very serious issues that it raises."
Proceeds to play clip of Jensen having a moral conviction and having something to say about the very serious issues that have been raised.
Proceeds to play clip of Jensen having a moral conviction and having something to say about the very serious issues that have been raised.
Garrett Hawke
Member
thank you for reminding me about Binfinite's "both sides!" nonsense. yikes
jensen =/= the game tho
The game depicts a world of conflicting ideologies and viewpoints, why should it take a stand wholesale. You already have opposing factions which do have a stand. It's up to the player to decide which is in the right, and it would be bad righting to just tell the player what to think. So instead you should be learning from in-game viewpoints. This Deus Ex game isn't going to be the one where you end up a savior figure that final decides how to set humanity straight, it's about surviving and navigating a ruthless world. Jensen as a vehicle for the player should definitely give the player options to take a stand, or play a more subtle and negotiable agent on the political stage.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I was kind of interested in this but sounds like a pass now, too bad. Also didn't think they'd actually put the "aug lives matter" shit in.
This will probably work with abstract philosophical differences and not something that banks on drawing obvious parallels between slavery, Apartheid, Jim Crow, Segregation etc. I'm not asking the game to take a stand but based on the review it does take one one that says "there are both sides to consider here". That's where I think the narrative makes a mistake. It's a lazy cop out that seems to mistake itself for complexity and nuance.
forcevapour
Banned
The moan about the augmented lives matter poster is ridiculous, I've played 30 hours and didn't even notice the poster It's nothing but decoration for the game world and in my view fits anyway, in the world of deus ex augmented people having equal rights is an issue. It's not making light of anything
WrenchNinja
Member
Well okay
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
If you played 30 hours and didn't even notice it, then it doesn't have much of a point does it
forcevapour
Banned
Exactly, it's not important at all
Garrett Hawke
Member
so you're saying it could be taken out and the game would be none the worse for it? so it doesn't do anything?
eot
Banned
Human Revolution's story was a poorly told mess and the way they treated augmentation as a societal issue lacked any subtlety.
RocknRola
Member
If the gameplay manages to be as fun as Human Revolution the story can be as bad as it wants to be. Deus Ex, to me, feels like one of the few modern series that gets "options" in way that makes sense despite some limitations (very few of your gameplay choices outside of perks and lethality have long term effects on the world).
Also, was not aware Carolyn was doing stuff for FF. Was under the assumption she was doing a blog or something. Probably just confused the name with someone else I suppose.
Also, was not aware Carolyn was doing stuff for FF. Was under the assumption she was doing a blog or something. Probably just confused the name with someone else I suppose.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Then that makes it worse. Go all in if your gonna insert recent real world politics into your fictional universe. Don't chicken out, which apparently this game's story does.
Corronchilejano
Member
Is there a game nowadays that actually deals with current social or political events with a stance, rather than keeping everything in shades of grey?
Smarter still would be to actually make a statement about the politics of fear and the fraught implications of a segregationist policy.
EDIT:
Really happy to see posts like this.
<3 Carolyn.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
From a somewhat cynical point of view I can see why a game wouldn't make an unequivocal statement about a social issue, especially when playing around with real-world phrases for marketing purposes, to avoid alienating (the wallets of) the segment of their customer base that doesn't view these things favorably.
Let us never forget that the protagonist
literally calls the oppressors and the rebelling oppressed two sides of the same coin
the only reason the rebellion was even violent in that timeline was because of an alternate version of himself!
Just... fuck Infinite and whoever thought that was a good idea.
Corronchilejano
Member
Well, they are inadvertedly taking the stance that you know, BLM, in the end, has also done some terrorism so they kinda deserve to not be taken seriously. Social movements go against the status quo, so when you make a game that pretty validates the status quo, well...
EDIT: Also, something something black people out of control and a danger to society? Yeah, I mean, it's not a one to one equivalency, but you get the idea.
Or you know, there are people in reality that think that way so they reflect that belligerent nature within the game. Depiction does not equate to affirmation.
Corronchilejano
Member
Yeah, well, there's a few differences, but the core clearly references BLM. The only difference being that black people don't have super powers and aren't a menace to society, but you can see how that can be misconstrued?
The point is that it was a flimsily made point that could've used a bit more thought.
No one is really saying that tho
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I would argue AugLivesMatter is referencing rhetoric more so than it is referencing the entirety of the deeply entrenched identity politics that surrounds American racial tensions. Especially seeing as it is a tiny bit of text on a poster.
I find it perfectly fine to represent messy politics where good and bad rhetoric muddles social resolution of a games conflict.
Never said they did, I was bringing up my own point. Because the point I was responding two was saying Eidos where inadvertently taking a stance on BLM. I was saying that depicting stances held by various characters within a game does not equate to affirming said stance.
Coffee Dog
Banned
But the issue with being in the middle is that being in the middle isn't okay in a real life scenario. It's okay to be in the middle when talking about Augs, or mutant rights, which are fictional scenarios about fictional oppressed peoples that are very different from real life struggles.
The comparison to BLM begins and ends at a few things scribbled on posters in background art and dumb marketing shit like mechanical apartheid. Beyond that it doesn't compare itself directly to anything aside from generic fictional oppression.
Compare this to bioshock infinite, which introduced you to the rebellion with flyover shots of slaves working the fields and singing fucking spirituals before revealing they were just as evil the whole time. One is being a whole lot more reliant on real world comparisons than the other.
Mafia 3?
....
I passed on this game right after eidos showed off their "up their own asses pseudo-documentary" on what it means to be human and the the psychologist complaining about smart hard working white people being victims of Affirmative Action".
Corronchilejano
Member
Gonna go read about it.
Zambayoshi
Member
I read the review but having read it I think I prefer Jim Sterling's take on the 'problematic' issues discussed by the FF review: "Mankind Divided is nowhere near as on-the-nose with its commentary as previous Deus Ex games have been. Its not sitting on the fences, but its not going so far as to put its foot in its mouth for the most part".
In general video games are a pretty difficult medium in which to tackle sensitive issues. As we've seen with That Dragon Cancer, The Beginner's Guide etc. There's a certain ham-fistedness that is expected. I'd venture to say that it stems from the issue of player agency. With a novel or film, the author or director can craft the experience in a more nuanced way and still get the point across. With games, there is a certain amount of 'noise' generated by player agency, such that emotive issues need to be amplified to get the point across. Failing to do so risks having the message submerged entirely.
How to solve this problem? Maybe there isn't a solution.
In general video games are a pretty difficult medium in which to tackle sensitive issues. As we've seen with That Dragon Cancer, The Beginner's Guide etc. There's a certain ham-fistedness that is expected. I'd venture to say that it stems from the issue of player agency. With a novel or film, the author or director can craft the experience in a more nuanced way and still get the point across. With games, there is a certain amount of 'noise' generated by player agency, such that emotive issues need to be amplified to get the point across. Failing to do so risks having the message submerged entirely.
How to solve this problem? Maybe there isn't a solution.
CrazedProfessional
Member
I don't get the "Story is nothing but shades of grey" complaint. It's pretty typical of Western RPGs and Role Playing Shooters to let the player colour the greys in.
it's an issue when it tries drawing pretty direct comparisons to current social issues that aren't nearly as morally ambiguous.
I was so hyped for Infinite and all they made was a racism theme park with a stupid "both sides" message and dudes to shoot. Its reception really showed up the lack of critical thinking within the gaming press and the immaturity of games as a medium.
Funny that BioShock 2 (including Minnerva's Den) played a lot better and had a much better story than Infinite despite have a fraction of the latter's budget.
Shameless.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
The original Deus Ex did venture very broadly into this along with other ideologies and philosophies. There are certainly a lot of the old fans looking for more of that, and Deus Ex HR certainly didn't venture as far into this realm. From what reviews say, MD does even less so, and chooses to raise some ideals with no commentary towards them to be safe.
When the game is explicitly and actively trying to make political statements, then yeah, people will expect political statement from that product
(and that's not even including the notion that even the apolitical is political)
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Why do people expect political statements from a game that makes political statements?
When a game unambiguously appropriates imagery and slogans from BLM, apartheid South Africa and Jim Crow USA for a fictional in-game oppressed group and goes for a "both sides", "shades of grey" message that in of itself is a political statement.