I dont even know. Its a damned REVIEW, and yet people lose their shit at anything remotely dealing with FF.
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Feminist Frequency: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Review
- Thread starter lightskintwin
- Start date
I dont even know. Its a damned REVIEW, and yet people lose their shit at anything remotely dealing with FF.
Garrett Hawke
Member
BRocknRolla
Member
It's a terrible reminder that this site has plenty of awful people on it. They just don't typically have a stage upon which to spout their nonsense. It is baffling that they apparently think that sort of thing will be met without resistance though.
Thanks! I can read this over lunch. The story is the one thing holding me back from a purchase right now, so I want to know as much as I can.
Nice, thank you for that.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Yep. The funniest is when people come in to a thread, like this one earlier and post "triggered jokes". The irony is tough to wade through.
Sounds like an entirely underwhelming game that I wasn't even aware was coming out already. The whole plot premise just sounds poorly thought out in every way. I really can't stand when media is so blatant about incorporating current events into them. Allusions are great, but repackaging real world things without even trying to hide it is not. Especially when they don't fit your narrative at all.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Is Jensen's delivery that consistently dry and coarse? Seems like the dullest protag to ever be given VO. He might as well be a silent protagonist if all he ever does is mumble out one liners with no feeling behind them.
Thanks for the link.
Sounds like a lot of my fears about the themes and comparisons being little more than window dressing were well founded. At least the gameplay should still be as impeccable as Human Revolution's.
Garrett Hawke
Member
FemFreq is doing much needed work.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
not so sly attempt at discredditing the channel for "reasons"
That was a fascinating analysis of the fictional vs. real-world morals the story explores. Exposing parallels that don't quite fit into place when you're trying to mirror real, innocent populations who were victimized in our history with fictional characters in DE who chose to be augmented and were subsequently "hacked' in the first game and sent into a murderous rampage that killed millions.
Sounds like a narrative misfire.
Sounds like a narrative misfire.
This just tells me that Eidos Montreal are "both sides" bullshitters who appropriate actual civil rights movements without due recognition (to outright straight denial) and don't even support the same movements from which they profit from.
And they had plenty of time to adjust their narrative seeing how the criticisms already came over a year ago. Too bad Eidos Montreal doubled down.
And they had plenty of time to adjust their narrative seeing how the criticisms already came over a year ago. Too bad Eidos Montreal doubled down.
If this truly is a game that has multiple choices and endings etc, I can see how this review maybe had the game as a yes and no and a good and bad at the same time, maybe the reviewer made the choices to suit them so that's why it could come across as very bland and dull, having read other reviews others found the story and the choice aspects compelling and interesting?! So I'm wondering how this review came in so different to others.
Thanks, makes it easier to talk about individual points.
Isn't this kind of an oxymoron? On the one hand, she says that the game fails to make a clear statement. On the other hand, the game has characters talking about killing augs. Wouldn't most humans feel some sort of empathy with the augs in that case? I am not exactly sure if she criticises that the game doesn't say "this is bad" or if it really does not become clear. Huxley's Brave New World also never makes a clear statement on whether its dystopian society is good or bad, and leaves it up to the reader.
This seems to be quite a stretch. Taking elements from the real world and adapting them to fictional works does not require a 1:1 situation. This seems to be me of an example for why such outlets often face ridicule, despite following a serious and worthwhile issue.
I wish they had elaborated on this, as the review does not really make their point very clear.
In fact, this passage only makes it sound as if they dislike the game's story for being a fictional story which cannot be linked 1:1 to the real world, and where they don't like that there's no clear good or evil (ironically, the same holds true in the real world).
All in all, interesting attempt at discussing a game story like this, and I would like to see more of it. Yet this review fails to properly explain its criticism, and potentially fails to view the game as a fictional story.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Great review.
The story sounds like the "both sides" guys wet dream.
The story sounds like the "both sides" guys wet dream.
Cool to have a review that discusses these themes, but not sure I agree with her arguments.
Would she have been happy if the augs were clearly presented as the good guys in every situation? That sounds kinda... less interesting. Sure, some of the real-life oppressions the game draws from shouldn't be framed as "both sides", but it's still a fictional story. People can make the distinction.
Would she have been happy if the augs were clearly presented as the good guys in every situation? That sounds kinda... less interesting. Sure, some of the real-life oppressions the game draws from shouldn't be framed as "both sides", but it's still a fictional story. People can make the distinction.
Nice review. A bit too short to get in depth with some of the arguments, but I understand the statement.
This game seems incredibly bland. Bland story, bland graphics, bland gameplay.
^^ A fictional story still needs to portray something interesting. It just seems to have nothing interesting to say or portray about the matters of social injustice it chose to include in the story. Of course a fictional story doesn't need to be 1:1 with the real world, and I'm sure the reviewer understands that. She just seems to think there's nothing of substance to the 'all gray' portrayal of the world.
This game seems incredibly bland. Bland story, bland graphics, bland gameplay.
^^ A fictional story still needs to portray something interesting. It just seems to have nothing interesting to say or portray about the matters of social injustice it chose to include in the story. Of course a fictional story doesn't need to be 1:1 with the real world, and I'm sure the reviewer understands that. She just seems to think there's nothing of substance to the 'all gray' portrayal of the world.
I think if they wanted to have a "both sides/shades of grey" kind of story then they shouldn't have directly compared themselves with things like the BLM movement. That's where the problem lies. If the comparisons were more subtle and done with more nuance then I think a "both sides" kind of plot would be better.
Like moths to a flame.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Sure but they shouldn't have used BLM and Apartheid.
Doesn't it make sense that people campaigning for Augs rights would want to make the connection to racism, even if the comparison isn't actually quite that simple?
People all over the world are already appropriating the language of apartheid and segregation for their own causes, whether or not its really apt.
People all over the world are already appropriating the language of apartheid and segregation for their own causes, whether or not its really apt.
Garrett Hawke
Member
imo if they had just skipped the connection to BLM it would've been fine, just a bit lazy that way as it evokes the language without thinking of the possible impact of doing so.
The aug situation is quite different to the issues facing people of colour in our universe so to borrow candidly and then attach such phrases to a murky sort-of terrorist organisation is a bit careless.
Lister
Banned
Review was pretty good.
I don't agree With Carolyn on her point about the "misstep" of trying to link the Augs situation to contemporary, real events though. She points out that Augs have been shown to be a threat - people fear them, and so it's a different situation.
First I don't necessarily think that not lining up 100% with reality is a necessity here. More importantly, I think she's wrong in terms of history anyway. Very often it is BECAUSE a group is feared in some way or another, with rational reasons or not, that they are scapegoated and discriminated against.
From growing economic/political power of Jews in pre WWII Germany (and well, every else - there was a lot of anti-semitism back them... well, through most of history actually), to the very well established fear of black youths from the police, and the fear of black and other minority groups having more political say in the US, in South Africa, etc. To active terrorism from other groupslike say those who claim to represent the Palestinian cause, etc.
It's more video-game-y, cut and dry here, what with the "event" and all, but fear, irrational or otherwise has always had a hand in movements to marginalize or descriminate or intimidate or exterminate a minority. Not always though of course. Cristopher Columbus was simply the biggest ass-hat ever, for example.
Great review though, food for thought.
I don't agree With Carolyn on her point about the "misstep" of trying to link the Augs situation to contemporary, real events though. She points out that Augs have been shown to be a threat - people fear them, and so it's a different situation.
First I don't necessarily think that not lining up 100% with reality is a necessity here. More importantly, I think she's wrong in terms of history anyway. Very often it is BECAUSE a group is feared in some way or another, with rational reasons or not, that they are scapegoated and discriminated against.
From growing economic/political power of Jews in pre WWII Germany (and well, every else - there was a lot of anti-semitism back them... well, through most of history actually), to the very well established fear of black youths from the police, and the fear of black and other minority groups having more political say in the US, in South Africa, etc. To active terrorism from other groupslike say those who claim to represent the Palestinian cause, etc.
It's more video-game-y, cut and dry here, what with the "event" and all, but fear, irrational or otherwise has always had a hand in movements to marginalize or descriminate or intimidate or exterminate a minority. Not always though of course. Cristopher Columbus was simply the biggest ass-hat ever, for example.
Great review though, food for thought.
Missed this. Thanks.
Will read in a few weeks or whenever it feels like I'm far into the game myself to have an opinion.
Yeah I agree that literally using the phrase "Aug lives matter" is a bit too much. It's more likely to take me out of the game than immerse me, it's so direct.
I thought that we had a review thread for this game.
And that was as quick as anyone could have expected.
And that was as quick as anyone could have expected.
So, how many account suicides are we going to have by the end of this thread? :/
Thanks! Sounds like a disappointment, gameplay and story-wise. A shame, I liked what I played of Human Revolution.
Thanks! Sounds like a disappointment, gameplay and story-wise. A shame, I liked what I played of Human Revolution.
The problem is that the Augs do "bad things" in the game, thus running into the Bioshock Infinite of "Both Sides" stance where the oppressed are just as bad as the oppressors.
The 'Both Sides' and 'Oppressed people' narratives are not equal or comparable to what e.g. non-white and especially Black people face under white supremacy. The structurally and historically marginalized do not possess much power and more often than not they are painted as aggressive and evil (like you mention yourself with your examples). This leads to the nadir of being neutral in a situation of oppression because of some incorrect belief that oppressed people also do bad things, therefore neither the oppressed or the oppressor should be supported or condoned since they're supposedly equal.
This narrative of 'Both Sides' legitimize inaction and is seen again and again and again and reminds me of MLK's Letters from Birmingham Jail. It's a cop-out for a game that tries to tackle complex issues of oppression and it feeds into the larger myth of being neutral in the face of oppression.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Is X-Men a "both sides" wet dream as well?
Damn, I've been a big fan of Carolyn's writting for a while and somehow had no idea she worked with FF (I've only watched a couple of their reviews). Still, wonderful review. I really dig the idea of focusing more on the story and themes the games try to discuss, makes for a complementary piece to the rest of the reviews out there.
As for the game... Yikes. I got a used copy of Human Revolution some months ago hoping to finally get into the series but the "Augs lives matter" garbage made me doubt and now the confirmation that they doubled down on that idea for the final release pretty much assures me I won't want to play these games, ever. Dodged a bullet there, thank god.
Also damn if "that crowd" is predictable. I checked this thread when it only had one page and it's so easy to spot morons in these threads lmao. Good riddance.
Pretty much. Awful, awful approach. This is Bioshock Infinite all over again except even worse.
See ya never Eidos Montreal.
Isn't that kind of the problem, though? The use of "Augs lives matter" is pretty much them saying "You guys! The conflict here is just like with black people in the real world!" which is already shaky, but then they're irresponsible enough to portray them not only as morally grey but as straight terrorists, all while making a connection to a group that is already wrongly seen as terrorist by bigots in the real world.
It's pretty much a textbook example of how to tie fiction to real social issues in the most irresponsible and ignorant way possible
As for the game... Yikes. I got a used copy of Human Revolution some months ago hoping to finally get into the series but the "Augs lives matter" garbage made me doubt and now the confirmation that they doubled down on that idea for the final release pretty much assures me I won't want to play these games, ever. Dodged a bullet there, thank god.
Also damn if "that crowd" is predictable. I checked this thread when it only had one page and it's so easy to spot morons in these threads lmao. Good riddance.
Pretty much. Awful, awful approach. This is Bioshock Infinite all over again except even worse.
See ya never Eidos Montreal.
Isn't that kind of the problem, though? The use of "Augs lives matter" is pretty much them saying "You guys! The conflict here is just like with black people in the real world!" which is already shaky, but then they're irresponsible enough to portray them not only as morally grey but as straight terrorists, all while making a connection to a group that is already wrongly seen as terrorist by bigots in the real world.
It's pretty much a textbook example of how to tie fiction to real social issues in the most irresponsible and ignorant way possible
I think the the fact that it is cut and dry may be part of the issue.
It is as you say - fear is often the driving point for discrimination. This is true both in reality and presumably in Deus Ex. In real life however there are a number of facets on top of that - as the review notes: gender identity, race, religion, sexual orientation etc.
I guess because the discrimination is on a more cut and dry basis - fear based on the incident - it doesn't really jive with the multiple shades of grey thay are at play in the narrative.
Like, if the fear is based on a simple premise - the augs killing everyone - why is the ARC both a nonviolent group and terrorist organisation? In trying to make things grey, the game almost seems to be avoiding saying anything at all. It's covering bases but doing little else.
I hope that made sense and didn't come off as combative!
EDIT: I should probably note that I haven't played the game, so it's entirely possible that I'm displaying a degree of ignorance here.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
watching people get nuked in this thread is amazing. yall really can't help yourselves huh?
Yup.
About as succinct as you're gonna get on the matter.
Shame the devs dropped the ball.
Not an excuse to behave like a dickhead but I do see how people view Feminist Frequency as somewhat biased an reaching for points just to make a statement. Which is a shame because they do bring up valid points but those then often stand in the shadow.
The video "Women as Background Decoration" comes to my mind, there is all kinds of questionable arguments the presenter makes, especially this part where the presenter suggests that the game Hitman encourages players to abuse women and drag them around while naked to pleasure the perverse sexual fantasy of the player.
Lister
Banned
Not everyone is always neutral though, as the Palestinian issue int he middle east and many others have shown. Sometimes oppression breeds anger and violence. As it does in the case of the game, and in many other cases in history. Hell, the US started a war in which a LOT of people dies, because the colonists felt marginalized politically. Not becuase they were beign rounded up into ghettos and killed or abused.
I think that's an important aspect that is interesting to include. Do you still help a group that is being oppressed even though some in that group are reacting violently. Do you completley oppose that violence, or do you see it as only inevitable? Soemtimes if you pusha people too far, they will retaliate, perhaps justly so even.
Freddy Barry
Banned
Carolyn Petit works for Feminist Frequency.
Interesting, guess quit gamespot?
Interesting, guess quit gamespot?
Really great review, caught me off guard because I only recently started to follow FF's channel and I didn't expect to be this positively impressed. This, alongside Bound's review, makes me wish we had more channel analyzing games in a social background, drawing parallels with the real world and what do certain elements in the narrative/world building and even gameplah mean, not necessarily having to be reviews. I know that Nerdwriter1 does that constantly for movies, but aside from FF I don't know any other channels that do that for games.
It's always the Hitman example, every single time... At this point, I'm not willing to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who uses it anymore.
The Lamonster
Member
The hero GAF deserves. Thanks
lightskintwin
Banned
I believe she was laid off a while back.
Lister
Banned
She was let go a loooong time ago. Around the time Kevin left I think, possibly earlier. Two of my fave Gamestop reviewers.
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
One thing that stands out to me is the erratic visual fidelity in different scenes. Some parts look excellent, but other areas just look flat and dated.
Also seems that Eidos skipped on mo-cap for hand animation. Lots of rigidity in body and facial movements.
Story-wise, I'm not surprised that the story falls flat. Even as a metaphor for current issues of discrimination, it's hard for game writers to convey discrimination involving an unrealistic subset of people (e.g., augs) in a way that provides commentary while appealing to the most basic of gamers.
Instead, it's an appropriation of real-world discrimination that is handled with kid gloves without a genuine empathic understanding of the discriminated people's plight.
Also seems that Eidos skipped on mo-cap for hand animation. Lots of rigidity in body and facial movements.
Story-wise, I'm not surprised that the story falls flat. Even as a metaphor for current issues of discrimination, it's hard for game writers to convey discrimination involving an unrealistic subset of people (e.g., augs) in a way that provides commentary while appealing to the most basic of gamers.
Instead, it's an appropriation of real-world discrimination that is handled with kid gloves without a genuine empathic understanding of the discriminated people's plight.
Freddy Barry
Banned
Interesting. Why was that I wonder?
Please continue, governor
I think this is the issue with stories like what we had in Human Revolution and Bioshock.
You get told that you have agency and choice in terms of how you upgrade you character. You can see how these things worked out for other people; splicers are totally fucked in Rapture, people are skeptical of augmented people in Human Revolution. You're told that these are meaningful decisions.
But there are ZERO in game consequences for splicing the shit out of yourself or by turning Jensen into a one man invisible, freefalling, wall punching, hacking technomancer. So the "grey area" is just window dressing. It's lazy as hell. And it's not even like they care about the overall continuity... Jensen predates Anna Navarre and Gunther Hermann and he looks a million times better than they do.