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[onQ123]

And also about dual gpu. Or same GPU with twice higher clock. Or magical 4k smaller chip.

Check the date of the post that was when no one believed that the new console would even output games at 4K & they was saying it would be for media only & I was speculating on how it would achieve 4K.


I was right about it being 36CU , I was right about it being 4K for games , I was right about uprendering & not upscaling , I was right about it being Polaris , I was right about it being extra hardware for helping it render in 4K & I'm right about FP16,

it's all speculations I just so happen to be right about the main things that people thought I was crazy for saying while they said 4K wasn't happening but because they were wrong they want to find fault in my speculations as if I was saying that it was all fact.

 

[LukasTaves]

Lol, dude has been talking about fp16 for PS4 pro. Some people just wanted to see what they wanted to see.

Some people like to project their fanboish tendencies unto him but onQ seems like a genuine enthusiast who loves gaming technology. Might not be a developer or well versed in these things, just like the majority of us on this board, but he likes to research these things and learn about it.

Again:

A while ago I tried to explain to people that we can't just go by the 6TF number that MS gave out because the bigger GPUs was moving towards using FP16 like the mobile GPUs & that they could be using the peak number which would be the FP16 number & now Vega 10 is being shown with 24TF FP16 it's peak number. Everyone is expecting MS to be using Vega so if the smaller card also has a higher FP16 number they could be using the bigger number.



They would never have to address it as a 3TF SP box they could just use the higher peak number which is the FP16 number if the GPU is Vega.



Half of Vega 10 would be 6TF on PC if it's clocked as high as Vega 10

He's talking about fp16 and other stuff to get pro to punch higher than the gpu already known (4.2tf), but he is claiming that the whole figure of 6tf on scorpio being Ms just lying by using fp16 to inflate the numbers.

 

[Tripolygon]

Again:

He's talking about fp16 and other stuff to get pro to punch higher than the gpu already known (4.2tf), but he is claiming that the whole figure of 6tf on scorpio being Ms just lying by using fp16 to inflate the numbers.

Why are you ignoring the reason you start talking about fp16 in the first place?

To support your theory that Scorpio only has a 3tf gpu that uses fp16 to hit the 6tf number.

Well, I guess now it's 6tf against 8tf right?

I said dude has been talking about FP16 long before that. You are wrong, he didnt start talking about FP16 because he was trying to say PS4K at that time would be more powerful than Scorpio.

 

[GhostTrick]

Check the date of the post that was when no one believed that the new console would even output games at 4K & they was saying it would be for media only & I was speculating on how it would achieve 4K.


I was right about it being 36CU , I was right about it being 4K for games , I was right about uprendering & not upscaling , I was right about it being Polaris , I was right about it being extra hardware for helping it render in 4K & I'm right about FP16,

it's all speculations I just so happen to be right about the main things that people thought I was crazy for saying while they said 4K wasn't happening but because they were wrong they want to find fault in my speculations as if I was saying that it was all fact.

You're right about rewriting history.
Your speculation was about the same GPU, you linked it yourself, with a smaller one. Heck, you've been advocating for dual GPU then, of the same. And then for the same but at 1.6Ghz. As for being right about 4k, then again, you're off. No one denied 4k would happen. What people said it wouldn't be the norm, and it's a fact.
You were right about extra hardware for helping render in 4k, considering it's using checkerboard most of the time. And you're wrong about FP16 which doesn't double performances as you claimed.

Every.single.time you throw a lot of things and if only one term is true, you take it as everything is true. Because you see that FP16 might help a little, you're now convinced you've always been true while in fact you claimed about double performances, about second smaller GPU, about main GPU being the same at higher clocks.

Yea and i thought PS4 would have a Cell with 2 4GHz PPE, 16 SPE, 1TF GPU, 4GB XDR RAM at 400GB/s.

I love speculation threads and discussions of new consoles.

Except you're not all like "see guys I was right ! GPU is 1TF and even 2TF so it's even more like I was right twice !"

 

[onQ123]

Oh, you know what I mean XD

Speculating about a second lower power gpu for helping achieving 4k is not the same as alluding that a company is straight up lying about the capabilities of its machine just so it looks bigger than the one released a year before.




In talking about this and countless other posts by him.

And that post still stands until MS come out with the specs because what I'm telling you is true.


If Xbox Scorpio is using Vega like everyone expects & they have a higher FP16 peak number than the FP32 peak number than can use the higher number to say how many flops the GPU has.

this is not me telling you that they will do that this is me telling you that they can do that.

 

[onQ123]

Again:




He's talking about fp16 and other stuff to get pro to punch higher than the gpu already known (4.2tf), but he is claiming that the whole figure of 6tf on scorpio being Ms just lying by using fp16 to inflate the numbers.

What? I was talking about FP16 before we even knew the specs of the PS4 Pro

 

[Spiral Insanity]

This game would look so much better without all the post processing, and with some actual colors. It kind of reminds me of Skidmarks on Amiga.

 

[LukasTaves]

I said dude has been talking about FP16 long before that. You are wrong, he didnt start talking about FP16 because he was trying to say PS4K at that time would be more powerful than Scorpio.

Ok, he name dropped fp16 once or twice before before. But he still comes up with crazy theories to make Ps4 pro more powerful than what it is, while for scorpio it's the opposite it's using the same tricks but to hide the fact that it's actually a weaker console.

Before saying that others are projecting their bias on him keep in mind that he is debating that Ms will launch Scorpio a year later, and weaker than ps4 pro, based on nothing and even when the other known specs already suggest a more powerful machine.

 

[onQ123]

You're right about rewriting history.
Your speculation was about the same GPU, you linked it yourself, with a smaller one. Heck, you've been advocating for dual GPU then, of the same. And then for the same but at 1.6Ghz. As for being right about 4k, then again, you're off. No one denied 4k would happen. What people said it wouldn't be the norm, and it's a fact.
You were right about extra hardware for helping render in 4k, considering it's using checkerboard most of the time. And you're wrong about FP16 which doesn't double performances as you claimed.

Every.single.time you throw a lot of things and if only one term is true, you take it as everything is true. Because you see that FP16 might help a little, you're now convinced you've always been true while in fact you claimed about double performances, about second smaller GPU, about main GPU being the same at higher clocks.





Except you're not all like "see guys I was right ! GPU is 1TF and even 2TF so it's even more like I was right twice !"

Something is wrong with you it really is & I'll leave it at that because me saying that it could be 8.4TF FP16 does not mean I'm saying that it double the performance of 4.2TF FP32 it means that it is double the performance of what would have also been 4.2TF FP16.

 

[Tripolygon]

Except you're not all like "see guys I was right ! GPU is 1TF and even 2TF so it's even more like I was right twice !"

You are seeing things where there is none. He says that to rile up people who like to bemoan him over his speculations.

I've seen him post on here for a long time now and one thing I've always noticed is his courteousness. Dude is never hostile towards anyone even while people call him stupid or say mean things towards him.

 

[Kayant]

Since we are talking about this game, it's Also worth noting they wanted to do cross console play but weren't allowed. They actually had to write code to disable it haha

Just read that news piece and that's a shame. That jump to conclusion by the author though...

Spoiler

Again open to idea /=/ implementation is guaranteed. Unless explicitly said like in the case of RL/Gwent whilst it's likely Sony it hasn't been said yet.

 

[GhostTrick]

Something is wrong with you it really is & I'll leave it at that because me saying that it could be 8.4TF FP16 does not mean I'm saying that it double the performance of 4.2TF FP32 it means that it is double the performance of what would have also been 4.2TF FP16.

No, you said it'll perform close to 8.4Tflops of FP32. You blatantly said so.

 

[onQ123]

Ok, he name dropped fp16 once or twice before before. But he still comes up with crazy theories to make Ps4 pro more powerful than what it is, while for scorpio it's the opposite it's using the same tricks but to hide the fact that it's actually a weaker console.

Before saying that others are projecting their bias on him keep in mind that he is debating that Ms will launch Scorpio a year later, and weaker than ps4 pro, based on nothing and even when the other known specs already suggest a more powerful machine.

We don't have Scorpio specs just numbers that don't tell a full story. if you say a TF number in the times when bigger GPU's are starting to use FP16 yes I'm going to be smart enough to question if you're using FP32 or FP16 I'm not stupid.

 

[blastprocessor]

What none sense?

What I been telling people is right there in plain words

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-mantis-burn-racing-on-ps4-pro

two 16-bit floating point operations in the time taken to complete one on the base PS4 hardware


Is that really PS4 pro specific or really part of Polaris?

 

[onQ123]

No, you said it'll perform close to 8.4Tflops of FP32. You blatantly said so.

I said if they use 16bit for what they would have used 32bit for in the 1st place then it would be like what seems to be 8.4TF FP32.


I already explained that to you but you're still going back trying to act as if that is saying it's 2X more powerful than what it is.

 

[Stevey]

I feel like we need jeff_rigby in this thread

 

[GribbleGrunger]

We don't have Scorpio specs just numbers that don't tell a full story. if you say a TF number in the times when bigger GPU's are starting to use FP16 yes I'm going to be smart enough to question if you're using FP32 or FP16 I'm not stupid.

Could you explain in layman's terms, please. When it comes to specs I'm a complete idiot so don't think you'll offend me if you feel you're being patronising. Patronise away ... I want to understand.

 

[GhostTrick]

I said if they use 16bit for what they would have used 32bit for in the 1st place then it would be like what seems to be 8.4TF FP32.


I already explained that to you but you're still going back trying to act as if that is saying it's 2X more powerful than what it is.

So twice performances.

 

[Tripolygon]

two 16-bit floating point operations in the time taken to complete one on the base PS4 hardware


Is that really PS4 pro specific or really part of Polaris?

It could be PS4 Pro specific because current Polaris can only do 1 fp16 operation not 2. To my understanding.

 

[Inuhanyou]

They have been mentioned many times:

- The Last Of Us Remastered (Native 4K@30FPS)
- Smite (Native 4K@60FPS)
- The Elder Scroll Online (Native 4K@30FPS with enhanced details over PS4 version)

We have an upper limit of 4K graphical rendering capabilities on Pro ladies and gentlemen.

I'd love to see God of War 3 remastered at native 4K

 

[onQ123]

two 16-bit floating point operations in the time taken to complete one on the base PS4 hardware


Is that really PS4 pro specific or really part of Polaris?

For AMD it's coming with Vega & Nvidia have it for their new cards but nuked the consumer PC GPUs to limit FP16 for now but mobile GPUs have been using FP16 for a while to get better performance out of smaller GPUs with a trade off of lower precision.

 

[vpance]

two 16-bit floating point operations in the time taken to complete one on the base PS4 hardware


Is that really PS4 pro specific or really part of Polaris?

From what I read, not part of Polaris, but possibly one of the customizations in Pro.

If true, then if a dev desires he can have portions of the game in FP16, like shaders and certain g-buffers to increase performance without notable degradation in IQ. Maybe it's not going to be 2x TF across the board, but it could still result in a significant boost.

 

[Wishmaster92]

It could be PS4 Pro specific because current Polaris can only do 1 fp16 operation not 2. To my understanding.

Oh wow this is good. What is the benefit of this?

 

[Draft]

Easily the best looking PlayStation game.

 

[Caayn]

two 16-bit floating point operations in the time taken to complete one on the base PS4 hardware


Is that really PS4 pro specific or really part of Polaris?

It's part of Polaris

Polaris features a 2:1 ratio between FP16 and FP32 support. This results in 2x FP16 operations in the same time as it would take the FP32 operations to complete. However, FP16 isn't suited for operations that require precision.

 

[Tripolygon]

Oh wow this is good. What is the benefit of this?

Means you can get closer to theoretical performance of the GPU when doing 16-bit float point operation rather than half.

It's part of Polaris

Polaris features a 2:1 ratio between FP16 and FP32 support. This results in 2x FP16 operations in the same time as it would take the FP32 operations to complete. However, FP16 isn't suited for operations that require precision.

Current Polaris, as in RX 480 has a 1:1 ratio for FP16:FP32. Future Polaris and Vega is said to be 2:1.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

They have been mentioned many times:

- The Last Of Us Remastered (Native 4K@30FPS)
- Smite (Native 4K@60FPS)
- The Elder Scroll Online (Native 4K@30FPS with enhanced details over PS4 version)

Oh shit. I totally forgot about those. Thanks for that info!

 

[Caayn]

Means you can get closer to theoretical performance of the GPU when doing 16-bit float point operation rather than half.

FP32 doesn't give you half. It all depends on the hardware.

Current Polaris, as in RX 480 has a 1:1 ratio for FP16:FP32. Future Polaris and Vega is said to be 2:1.

I was under the impression that it had 2:1. My bad. It's indeed 1:1.

That makes it strange to use FP16 when it costs the same as FP32, I can't see how the memory benefits of FP16 outweigh the loss of precision for games. I'd like to see actual confirmation that the PS4P GPU supports 8.4TFLOPS for FP16 operations.

 

[pottuvoi]

FP16 is only useful for stuff like deep learning, where speed matters more than accuracy. Now if you want to go back to the era of polygon seams and clipping, be my guest.

The level of accuracy on FP16 is horseshit:

Integers between 0 and 2048 can be exactly represented
Integers between 2049 and 4096 round to a multiple of 2 (even number)
Integers between 4097 and 8192 round to a multiple of 4
Integers between 8193 and 16384 round to a multiple of 8
Integers between 16385 and 32768 round to a multiple of 16
Integers between 32769 and 65504 round to a multiple of 32
Integers above 65504 are rounded to "infinity"

Highest integers that can be accurately represented:

FP16: 2,048 (2^11)
FP32: 16,777,216 (2^24)
FP64: 9,007,199,254,740,992 (2^53)

Indeed.

FP16 can only be used in Limited cases.
I wonder if int16 is the more usable format, fixedpoint math could be interesting choice as well.

 

[onQ123]

FP16 is only useful for stuff like deep learning, where speed matters more than accuracy. Now if you want to go back to the era of polygon seams and clipping, be my guest.

The level of accuracy on FP16 is horseshit:

Integers between 0 and 2048 can be exactly represented
Integers between 2049 and 4096 round to a multiple of 2 (even number)
Integers between 4097 and 8192 round to a multiple of 4
Integers between 8193 and 16384 round to a multiple of 8
Integers between 16385 and 32768 round to a multiple of 16
Integers between 32769 and 65504 round to a multiple of 32
Integers above 65504 are rounded to "infinity"

Highest integers that can be accurately represented:

FP16: 2,048 (2^11)
FP32: 16,777,216 (2^24)
FP64: 9,007,199,254,740,992 (2^53)

Indeed.

FP16 can only be used in Limited cases.
I wonder if int16 is the more usable format, fixedpoint math could be interesting choice as well.

Well Sebbbi (A dev on Beyond3D) says different

Sometimes it requires more work to get lower precision calculations to work (with zero image quality degradation), but so far I haven't encountered big problems in fitting my pixel shader code to FP16 (including lighting code). Console developers have a lot of FP16 pixel shader experience because of PS3. Basically all PS3 pixel shader code was running on FP16.

It is still is very important to pack the data in memory as tightly as possible as there is never enough bandwidth to lose. For example 16 bit (model space) vertex coordinates are still commonly used, the material textures are still dxt compressed (barely 8 bit quality) and the new HDR texture formats (BC6H) commonly used in cube maps have significantly less precision than a 16 bit float. All of these can be processed by 16 bit ALUs in pixel shader with no major issues. The end result will still be eventually stored to 8 bit per channel back buffer and displayed.

Could you give us some examples of operations done in pixel shaders that require higher than 16 bit float processing?

EDIT:
One example where 16 bit float processing is not enough: Exponential variance shadow mapping (EVSM) needs both 32 bit storage (32 bit float textures + 32 bit float filtering) and 32 bit float ALU processing.

However EVSM is not yet universally possible on mobile platforms right now, as there's no standard support for 32 bit float filtering in mobile devices (OpenGL ES 3.0 just recently added support for 16 bit float filtering, 32 bit float filtering is not yet present). Obviously GPU manufacturers can have OpenGL ES extensions to add FP32 filtering support if their GPU supports it (as most GPUs should as this has been a required feature in DirectX since 10.0).

#33sebbbi, Oct 18, 2014 Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014

 

[OdysseusVA]

Smite at 4k/60?

Too bad its not AAA or open world, it would have counted then.

 

[thelastword]

I think a better question is, does PS4P do 2160p HDR10 4:4:4?
Apparently the XBO:S can only do 4:2:0



Basic? It looks better in a lot of ways than a lot of PS3 games. I'd take PS3 level lighting/rendering complexity with higher than PS3 quality textures and shadows if it meant native 4k60 with decent AA. Seems like it'd be good for PS3/360/PS2 remasters at least?


FWIW, a GTX 980 overclocked hit between 65-100+ or so at 4k at highest settings in the PC version in my testing of the Early Access build. In the most demanding levels I was testing it was sitting the 70s range.



Therein lies the rub, the AAA games industry is not willing to sacrifice pushing prettier shading and other junk to hit 4k rendering. We'll be lucky if we can get mostly stable 30FPS CBR stuff. (Can we please at least be done with not having mandatory 8xAF for everything bare minimum now at least? I'm sick of all that texture work being wasted and blurred into muddy goop.)

I'd personally be A-OK with lighting/effects/shading on par with the PS3, but with better textures/16xAF/SMAAT2x at 4k native 60.
Just as an example
A GTX 970 could hit 4k native 60 with 2xMSAA in a game like RE5 easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n03LA5fU7bg (This is with 8xMSAA even).
I don't see why with the opitmization they get out of consoles they couldn't easily do that on PS4P at 4k native. I'm still puzzled as hell why they coudln't even hit 1080p60 without MSAA on standard PS4!

I would too, I think TLOUR Pro enhanced will be an eye-opener. It will be interesting to see if they further improve on TLOU's visuals in this pro patch. Personally I'd love to see what Kaz can do with GT5/6 on the PRO or Santa Monica with Ascension/GOW3......As for RE5????It baffles me that this game is not locked 60fps on the OG PS4 with 8XMSAA and 16xAF. Hell, even RE4 has no AA on the machine.

They have been mentioned many times:

- The Last Of Us Remastered (Native 4K@30FPS)
- Smite (Native 4K@60FPS)
- The Elder Scroll Online (Native 4K@30FPS with enhanced details over PS4 version)

I believe Killing Floor 2 is pretty close too, not sure they will hit 4k before release though.....

Smite at 4k/60?

Too bad its not AAA or open world, it would have counted then.

Funny enough, there are many games that people consider AAA that would run at 4k on the PS4.Pro. The Rx 480 can run Forza Apex at 4K 60fps at max settings. I'm pretty sure it runs Horizon 3 at 4k 30fps too, perhaps reduce some settings like in the XB1 version and it can hit 60fps. Of course these games are MS products but we can gauge what the hardware can do through equivalent PC parts.

I have always maintained that the Pro can do quite a few of the modern AAA games at 4k native at medium settings at 30fps, some optimization work will have to take place because of the architecture of the consoles, but it is possible. Devs who want to push better shaders, higher presets will no doubt lower the pixel count, but the Pro should offer a good mix of native games and lower resolutions than native.

On the flip, I do believe MS when they say that most of their first party games will be native. If the Pro can run Forza 6 at 4k max settings, so will the Scorpio, I think the same can be said about Halo, K.I etc...Most of their games are not pushing the tech boundary as much as other first parties, and it's easy to see how simple it is to run their games at 4k with good framerates on mid-end PC GPU's.

 

[wouwie]

Unrelated to the 4k60fps discussion, the game comes out next week. I love the genre so i hope this game is going to be a lot of fun.

 

[pottuvoi]

Well Sebbbi (A dev on Beyond3D) says different

Thanks for quote.
This will make me more hopeful for range where FP16 will be used.

 

[Azzawon]

Unrelated to the 4k60fps discussion, the game comes out next week. I love the genre so i hope this game is going to be a lot of fun.

Judging by the trailer it looks like a lot of fun and has definitely piqued my interest. Anyone know the name of the song?

 

[onQ123]

Thanks for quote.
This will make me more hopeful for range where FP16 will be used.

You still can't gauge it by that quote either because there has been hardware & API changes to make better use of FP16 since the PS3 was developed.



They was just beginning to use it when PS3 was being thought of & they are just now adding native support for it in AMD PC cards & MS is using it with Direct3D 12 & shader model 6
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-precision_floating-point_format

Half-precision floating point is a relatively new binary floating-point format. Nvidia and Microsoft defined the half datatype in the Cg language, released in early 2002, and was the first to implement 16-bit floating point in silicon, with the GeForce FX, released in late 2002.[1]
ILM was searching for an image format that could handle a wide dynamic range, but without the hard drive and memory cost of floating-point representations that are commonly used for floating-point computation (single and double precision).[2]
The hardware-accelerated programmable shading group led by John Airey at SGI (Silicon Graphics) invented the s10e5 data type in 1997 as part of the 'bali' design effort. This is described in a SIGGRAPH 2000 paper[3] (see section 4.3) and further documented in US patent 7518615.[4]

This format is used in several computer graphics environments including OpenEXR, JPEG XR, OpenGL, Cg, and D3DX. The advantage over 8-bit or 16-bit binary integers is that the increased dynamic range allows for more detail to be preserved in highlights and shadows for images. The advantage over 32-bit single-precision binary formats is that it requires half the storage and bandwidth (at the expense of precision and range).[2]

 

[onQ123]

They have been mentioned many times:

- The Last Of Us Remastered (Native 4K@30FPS)
- Smite (Native 4K@60FPS)
- The Elder Scroll Online (Native 4K@30FPS with enhanced details over PS4 version)

Add Skyrim SE to the list

 

[wouwie]

Since there doesn't seem to be any other topic, i was wondering if anybody bought the game? Reviews seem rather good so i'm tempted. I just wonder if there is enough single player content to justify the price.