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[Garrett Hawke]

Why would there be ? Tomb raider, horizon, Nier 2, people are not complaining....

People enjoyed playing Elie in left behind and TLOU anyway...

You should read this thread

 

[The Hamburglar]

Wouldn't that his put Joel in his 50s? Guy still looks young and ripped to shit.

 

[MindGamingMantis]

I hope this means there will be female human enemies in the game as well and it matches the brutality of male enemies deaths

I don't want this to end up like a Tomb Raider situation where little Reboot Lara massacres trained fully armored dudes left and right yet no females in sight.

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Finally someone with the same opinion!



This.



"What do I have in common with a teenage, angst-ridden girl? How can I relate to her struggles and view of the world?"

Are you not able to enjoy works of fiction that don't center around somebody who isn't your gender, ethnicity, age and whatever criteria would preclude you from relating to them?

I would hate for things he be so bland.

 

[ElephantShell]

Wouldn't that his put Joel in his 50s? Guy still looks young and ripped to shit.

Surviving post apocalypse is a great workout.

 

[SomTervo]

Sorry just rewatched the hospital scene and don't see where they said that, not to mention

Spoiler

how are they suppose to know what is happening in the rest of the world.

Even the Last of Us wiki states

Spoiler

"It is unknown if he was the only surgeon the Fireflies possessed"

And about

Spoiler

Joel attacking first, I mean they did threaten to kill him if he did anything but leave. They weren't exactly being great about the whole thing

It's in an optional audio tape IIRC. Surgeon described like "we're lucky to have the last brain surgeon on the planet".

Like it cant be physically known but the likelihood is pretty fucking high.

If the player was in charge we could have left immediately, let Ellie be taken, give ourselves in, not shoot a guy in the dick, etc. But we're playing Joel who does all these things including killing the lead surgeon in relatively cold blood.

Remember if the Fireflies were that antagonistic towards Joel they would have killed him before he woke up. They ko'd him but kept him alive and were honest about ellie.

 

[excelsiorlef]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

:|

 

[Garrett Hawke]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

Wtf???

There are real life women in the military. In canon, there are female fireflies and hunters, evidenced in the MP. They were only excluded from the campaign due to hardware limitations of the PS3.

 

[kiguel182]

Just about everyone Joel kills tries or would try to kill him if they'd get a drop on him. A lot of people seem to take Joel and his actions and judge them by our current society's standards which obviously makes him into a monster. Instead we should judge his actions by the standards of his society in which almost everyone seems to be hunting others. It seems to be the norm in everywhere but the few larger settlements. He is NOT a nice guy, he is a bad guy, but he isn't evil. It doesn't make sense to be Joel and not kill when it would mean that he would lose the only thing he sees worth living for to other predatory people. Basic comforts largely no longer exists. Being alive is just surviving, and when you do find that something extra that gives you reason and purpose you hang on to that because everyone else will do so also at the expense of you and the thing you hold most dear.

This is gonna be good.

He is as bad as the guys he kills, yes.

Up until the end when he kills the fireflies, the surgeon and Ellie's guardian.

Ellie wants them to do the surgery so this is all against her consent.

 

[BronsonLee]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

Real life tells me otherwise

 

[TimeEffect]

Nah, Joel being dead is way too easy. Druckmann won't go for that. He will use Joel's ultimate fate as a device to build up sustained tension throughout the game for pretty much free, in addition to everything else he comes up with. Joel was such a nominal character that he won't be killed offscreen or in a flashback. This is "ellie kills joel at the end" all over again.

I don't know why it has to be a big deal. It can be established he's dead. It doesn't have to be a big surprise. It just has to be meaningful

And I think it'd be very meaningful because it would tell us a lot about Ellie's mental state

And Joel not existing but as a ghost just would make me so invested and curious and sad for them both


I think it's perfect


Ellie is so emotional and young. I want Joel's ghost to be a coping thing. I want to see her break hard because it just seems like that's the point of exploring these survivors in their youth. We never knew Joel during that time. Just after.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Finally someone with the same opinion!



This.



"What do I have in common with a teenage, angst-ridden girl? How can I relate to her struggles and view of the world?"

That's the only thing I would think picking up the controller to play this game. I would also think that I'm playing as a character I didn't like originally and now I'm playing as her for the entire game this time. It's just not something that sounds like fun to me. I don't like her demeanor or her character design, so I'm just going to have to pass on this one.

Video Games have done far, far more bizarre things than have the player character be a teenage girl. Have you seriously gauged whether every game you've encountered in the past is worth playing by how immediately relatable the MC's basic premise is?

 

[defghik]

Wouldn't that his put Joel in his 50s? Guy still looks young and ripped to shit.

He looked pretty old in the first game when he was in his late 40s, and we didn't even see his face in the trailer. Doesn't seem out of place at all.

As far as being "ripped", he's in his 50s, not his 80s. You can still be very physically fit at that age, especially if you live in a world where you're constantly fighting for survival. That's some good exercise.

 

[Dinda]

so I'm just going to have to pass on this one.

for everyone who doesn't like that it is a female main character really.

If it makes you feel better just think about the fact that if everyone would think like you, every game you probably liked (all with male main characters) would be a pass for more than half of the population.
Than think about the fact that in the big picture you really don't have to pass on many games.
And that should make it hopefully clear to you that it isn't all that bad that you have to pass on this one, you know, since most of the time you're the lucky one.

 

[Crossing Eden]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

What kinda fucking revisionist history is this??

Testerone wouldn't magically stop the above from wrecking you.

 

[SomTervo]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

Physically inferior, cool, see how that goes down in a conversation IRL with a woman who can wipe the floor with you.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

It's in an optional audio tape IIRC. Surgeon described like "we're lucky to have the last brain surgeon on the planet".

Like it cant be physically known but the likelihood is pretty fucking high.

If the player was in charge we could have left immediately, let Ellie be taken, give ourselves in, not shoot a guy in the dick, etc. But we're playing Jorl who does all these things including killing the lead surgeon in relatively cold blood.

Also, if Ellie is the only person who is immune that they have come across (is this accurate?) then going straight to kill her and harvest her brain seems like a very illogical step. I would do every non-lethal test and experiment I could before killing her. Doesn't inspire confidence in their results.

 

[defghik]

He is as bad as the guys he kills, yes.

Up until the end when he kills the fireflies, the surgeon and Ellie's guardian.

Ellie wants them to do the surgery so this is all against her consent.

They never even woke Ellie up to tell her about it. She never gave consent. Had she known, she may have wanted that to happen, but we never find out for sure.

 

[BronsonLee]

For the ending of TLOU, you have to at least kill one of the surgeons, right? I remember only killing one and then leaving

 

[Deckard Chapel]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you don't need to keep trying to convince people why you feel the way you do about this. You're not gonna see eye to eye.

*

I'm curious,what don't you like about ellie? She was a badass and strong female lead.

*

That was the first response to me saying I was disappointed that we're playing as Ellie and all I've been trying to do is answer that question by expressing my displeasure for her as a character - and it's been a war of attrition ever since.

Tell me, do you decide whether or not to play every game based on the level of identification you share with the main character?

The main thing that strikes me about a game I might be interested in is the narrative and also what the motivation for the main character is, as well as who the main character is. Isn't that the same for everyone? It's not like I buy a game because I like the color of something in the background art on the cover lol!

 

[SomTervo]

Nah, Joel being dead is way too easy. Druckmann won't go for that. He will use Joel's ultimate fate as a device to build up sustained tension throughout the game for pretty much free, in addition to everything else he comes up with. Joel was such a nominal character that he won't be killed offscreen or in a flashback. This is "ellie kills joel at the end" all over again.

I think you're right about this. We're all saying "Joel is already dead" just like we were saying "who will die at the end of Uncharted 4". A good writing approach is to do the thing YOU least expect, and i bet Druckmann et al have closely considered the "Joel is dead" idea.

For the ending of TLOU, you have to at least kill one of the surgeons, right? I remember only killing one and then leaving

Yes, even if you don't pull the trigger, Joel automatically kills the lead surgeon (probably the only actual surgeon).

 

[psyfi]

If it makes you feel better just think about the fact that if everyone would think like you, every game you probably liked (all with male main characters) would be a pass for more than half of the population.
Than think about the fact that in the big picture you really don't have to pass on many games.
And that should make it hopefully clear to you that it isn't all that bad that you have to pass on this one, you know, since most of the time you're the lucky one.

Well put.

 

[GamingOblivion]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

there are plenty of female trained killers in contemporary times, in history, and all over. Get out of your little meninist bubble, thanks.

 

[kiguel182]

Joel disagreeing with their approach doesn't justify killing a doctor in cold blood.

Man I really hope they don't go back on the portrayal the first game did of Joel or make Ellie kill tons and tons of people too. Last Of Us felt like a game that looked at all the killing we did and was like "maybe you are a bad guy", hopefully they stick with that.

 

[Ganzlinger]

People saying that Ellie was an angst teenager? Never had that perception from her. If anything, Joel was the angst middle aged man.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

By player choice. You could count player-made RPG characters from Bioware games by that standard.

I'd argue that any non-player created character with the option to romance either gender is bisexual.

But really, I'm doubtful that romance will be a part of the equation here. As much as apocalypse stories love the whole "damaged girl who screws dudes to feel good" thing, I don't think they'll go that route with Ellie. The odds of her finding a decent man or woman that made her feel the way Riley did back in those innocent times is pretty low.

 

[SomTervo]

Also, if Ellie is the only person who is immune that they have come across (is this accurate?) then going straight to kill her and harvest her brain seems like a very illogical step. I would do every non-lethal test and experiment I could before killing her. Doesn't inspire confidence in their results.

This is a bit of a "cheat" argument in the conversation, but Druckmann/Straley confirmed that

Spoiler

Ellie's brain would have led to a cure.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Ellie being the main in TLOU2 and Chloe being the main in ULL is awesome.

 

[kiguel182]

They never even woke Ellie up to tell her about it. She never gave consent. Had she known, she may have wanted that to happen, but we never find out for sure.

She tells you she is willing to do anything. She submits herself to her fate if it can help finding a cure.

The game is pretty obvious about this.

 

[SomTervo]

Joel disagreeing with their approach doesn't justify killing a doctor in cold blood.

Man I really hope they don't go back on the portrayal the first game did of Joel or make Ellie kill tons and tons of people too. Last Of Us felt like a game that looked at all the killing we did and was like "maybe you are a bad guy", hopefully they stick with that.

It's not about justification, it's about people misunderstanding Joel as a character and the player's (lack of) control in the narrative.

Agreed re the portrayal moving forward. I'm worried, frankly. But they've surprised me in the past.

 

[broscientific]

**
The main thing that strikes me about a game I might be interested in is the narrative and also what the motivation for the main character is, as well as who the main character is. Isn't that the same for everyone? It's not like I buy a game because I like the color of something in the background art on the cover lol!

So you don't play games absent of character-driven story, or choose to buy a game based on gameplay, or art direction, or aesthetic, or genre, or any other game defining quality?

I guess it's good for you that you're an (I half assume) straight white male, because otherwise your options would be severely limited if that's the only criteria you use. Enjoy keeping your small worldview small.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is a bit of a "cheat" argument in the conversation, but Druckmann/Straley confirmed that

Spoiler

Ellie's brain would have led to a cure.

O_O
..........

Joel needs to die.

 

[Memento]

All them female leads on Sony first party games: Horizon, TLOU Part II, Gravity Rush 2 and Uncharted The Lost Legacy.

Me like it.

 

[defghik]

She tells you she is willing to do anything. She submits herself to her fate if it can help finding a cure.

The game is pretty obvious about this.

She did? Where does she say that she's willing to do anything? It's implied, but never explicitly stated anywhere.

And that's still totally different from actually giving consent.

 

[TimeEffect]

People saying that Ellie was an angst teenager? Never had that perception from her. If anything, Joel was the angst middle aged man.

She ran away like a damn teenager.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

Wut

 

[ForsakenLotus]

This is a bit of a "cheat" argument in the conversation, but Druckmann/Straley confirmed that

Spoiler

Ellie's brain would have led to a cure.

Where did they say that?

 

[SomTervo]

O_O
..........

Joel needs to die.

Dark, isn't it.

IIRC Druckmann quickly backpedalled out of saying that. I think he wanted it to be left up to the imagination, but it slipped out during an interview. (IIRC. He definitely confirmed it either way, intentional or not.)

Where did they say that?

See above. I'm in bed and on mobile so can't really re-do the research atm, but it was in an interview. Possibly wasn't said intentionally.

Seriously I've read everything i fucking can about this game since release. Like a hoover.

 

[GamingOblivion]

This is a bit of a "cheat" argument in the conversation, but Druckmann/Straley confirmed that

Spoiler

Ellie's brain would have led to a cure.

source pls, i don't believe you

 

[Nuno Pinto]

Ellie is going to be the new Kratos.

 

[Lime]

Fear Effect

eh that was just a ploy to stroke presumed straight player dicks and not actually a meaningful representation of a lesbian relationship

 

[OrionX]

Sweet, I was hoping Ellie would be the mc if they did another. She'll probably be faster, and maybe fight a little more frenzied after years of training from dad.

The only bad thing is now I won't be able to pretend they lived happily ever after. lol

 

[Will the Thrill]

This is a bit of a "cheat" argument in the conversation, but Druckmann/Straley confirmed that

Spoiler

Ellie's brain would have led to a cure.

I find that just lame they explained that, why feel the need to tell us that? Ambiguity is good.

Though uh, where did they say this anyway?

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

She did? Where does she say that she's willing to do anything? It's implied, but never explicitly stated anywhere.

And that's still totally different from actually giving consent.

I mean, it's not like they tried just sending her blood.

So you don't play games absent of character-driven story, or choose to buy a game based on gameplay, or art direction, or aesthetic, or genre, or any other game defining quality?

I guess it's good for you that you're an (I half assume) straight white male, because otherwise your options would be severely limited if that's the only criteria you use. Enjoy keeping your small worldview small.

How does that connect?

I haven't checked their previous posts but that seems pretty harsh. What's wrong with finding quality narrative in a game that supposed to be character and story driven?

 

[Ivory Samoan]

The more I think about it, the more I like the Joel's dead theory.

Hate, it's a strong word....it would be a hell of a revenge tail, Fireflies and erryone gonna get it from Ellie I reckon.

 

[SomTervo]

For new page:

source pls, i don't believe you

Sorry, can't atm. Will try tomorrow. It was up to a year after release i think and a brief comment in an interview.

I might be totally wrong but i have a very solid memory of this, like 90% certain.

I find that just lame they explained that, why feel the need to tell us that? Ambiguity is good.

Though uh, where did they say this anyway?

Even if this is true, a guaranteed cure doesn't mean shit. The fireflies would own the world's most valuable thing, do you really think they'd hand it out for free to everyone, even their enemies?

Read my follow up responses.

I think it may have been more of a "our thought process out loud thing" rather than a confirmation.

Seriously this line of discussion is getting bigger than i intended and I'm on a mobile on bed, haha. UK side.

 

[kiguel182]

She did? Where does she say that she's willing to do anything? It's implied, but never explicitly stated anywhere.

And that's still totally different from actually giving consent.

In the scene with the giraffes she tells you her wishes.

You then kill dozens of people including a surgeon, her surrogate mother and lie to her about it.

I doubt Ellie wanted this.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Joel is dead, and Ellie is seeing things, count on it.

 

[dh4niel]

I cannot wait. 100% trust in Naughty Dog's abilities.

 

[EdibleExplosives]

This is a bit of a "cheat" argument in the conversation, but Druckmann/Straley confirmed that

Spoiler

Ellie's brain would have led to a cure.

Even if this is true, a guaranteed cure doesn't mean shit. The fireflies would own the world's most valuable thing, do you really think they'd hand it out for free to everyone, even their enemies?

Edit: My reply isn't really directed at you, but in general about Joel's decision.