At no point is this Joel's motivation. At all.
He's saving her for his own mental stability. His motivation is selfish. It's why he lied to her.
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Ellie is the main playable character in The Last of Us: Part II
- Thread starter Corpsepyre
- Start date
At no point is this Joel's motivation. At all.
He's saving her for his own mental stability. His motivation is selfish. It's why he lied to her.
'Physically inferior' does not mean they are useless. Or that they could not exist.
Men do not have a monopoly on being dicks, or being good at killing.
ForsakenLotus
Member
I'm not trying to be accusatory. I could be mistaken. I do vividly remember another poster make the same claim though, and your name seems familiar.
It's all good though. I would just be surprised if they said that. The ambiguity is part of what makes the ending so great.
Haha yeah.
Had a think about it, i do reckon it's most. Although maybe the couple of infected-heavy scenes (school, prologue, Winter opening) sway it.
Totally, hence why i mentioned i remember them backpedalling on the statement. Although they did backpedal on something else - maybe an epilogue scene with Ellie they cut. I could be conflating this.
excelsiorlef
Member
Like it's not like the Fireflies said hey Joel bring her here, we can make a cure by harvesting her brain. Ellie you're cool with dying right?
They lied through their teeth and told them she'd live.
Likey they were gonna harvest the brain of a 14 year old without her permission.
But yes Joel is the monster who robbed her of agency.
Shit's grey as fuck.
They lied through their teeth and told them she'd live.
Likey they were gonna harvest the brain of a 14 year old without her permission.
But yes Joel is the monster who robbed her of agency.
Shit's grey as fuck.
Toni
Member
I mean, its a world gone to absolute shit where the lines of good and evil are blured to hell and back. He also is a guy with a concsience known to show mercy and give chances, so its not like he is a mindless assassin killing the first living thing he comes in contact with. Its a world of survival of the fittest, every man/woman out for themselves.
You're mostly utilizing the last segments of the game to make up a general concensus about him. And we know for the most part the fireflies had Ellie held captive and threatened to kill him if he left. They were both not getting out of that building alive.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
It always shocks me people don't even remember what the Fireflies are about and just support them because they say "We want to save the world!!!!"
Where did I say that I loved Marlene? :lol also not sure why mentioning her would be an argument
Cool I can respect that
ForsakenLotus
Member
ND's characters are always discount versions of hollywood actors, like Ellie's appearance and personality in TLOU1 was discount Juno, Super, x-men, and Hard Candy Ellen Page, Nathan Drake is discount Nathan Fillion, etc. This is what Ellie looked like during TLOU's debut before they changed it after people pointed out the similarity to Ellen Page:
she looks a lot like her actress now but the face structure definitely leans more toward Ellen Page.
I could be wrong, but is it not possible they changed her facial appearance because she looked too old? Her original look is extremely similar to how she looks now.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
So like any father/mother/parent/sibling?
Really strange to see people defending an organization that has clearly done far more damage to the remaining safe areas and damning a man for wanting to save his daughter from people who deem to have more of a say in her life than he does.
"Joel's actions were selfish!" Yea, no shit. anything that has to do with saving a family member/loved one over others is selfish. That's not an evil thing.
Wink Wink, nudge nudge
A wink's as good as a nudge to a blind
dead surgeon
The Fireflies aren't necessarily defensible but Joel isn't a moral paragon either
timetokill
Banned
The fireflies being villainous doesn't absolve Joel of being one.
It IS obvious that he's a villain. I'm not sure how you could see the last bit of that game and not understand it.
Joel is selfish, murderous, and a liar. He does it to the person he's closest to left in the world. He doesn't do it for her, he does it for himself.
And sure, you understand why he did it. But it doesn't make him not a villain just because you can empathize. It makes him a good villain. Much like the fireflies, who also have their motivations that we can understand.
He's a monster, just like everyone else. Another vice around Ellie, robbing her of her agency.
Is this information the only thing that came out of the TLoU2 panel?
Whether or not this is true (and I recall an audio log from the hospital that suggests what they're doing is a longshot that has failed with other immune individuals), I'd prefer it to be true. Otherwise, there's nothing interesting about Joel's climactic decision.
If Ellie's just going to be fruitlessly murdered by fanatics, of course Joel will try to save her, since that's what he just did in the previous season. It only has dramatic worth if he's making a real tradeoff, deciding he cares less about the fate of the world than about this girl he's grown to care about in spite of himself.
Whether or not this is true (and I recall an audio log from the hospital that suggests what they're doing is a longshot that has failed with other immune individuals), I'd prefer it to be true. Otherwise, there's nothing interesting about Joel's climactic decision.
If Ellie's just going to be fruitlessly murdered by fanatics, of course Joel will try to save her, since that's what he just did in the previous season. It only has dramatic worth if he's making a real tradeoff, deciding he cares less about the fate of the world than about this girl he's grown to care about in spite of himself.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It was specifically so that she looked more like Joonsten, Ellie still looks slightly above 14 years old in TLOU.
I mean, he shoots a defenseless woman begging for mercy in the head in the end, murders unarmed doctors crying for help. That's pretty damn villainous. Joel acted for entirely egotistical reasons and doomed the world because he didn't want to go through the pain of losing a daughter again. He's a pretty classic tragic villian. Doesn't mean he is evil.
ForsakenLotus
Member
And it's not just that, they also seem to be barely hanging on. Where is their strong presence? Their strongholds? They seem like they used to be a big militia that got whittled down by bandits, the government and Clickers and are now much more of an ideological movement than a practical solution.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Im all for this. I love Ellie. But I do hope we can take control of Joel at some point when he is pissed the fuck off. His badassness can not go unplayed in this game if even for 1 chapter.
My bad, I took this quote from you:
to mean you liked Marlene. She is just as selfish and murderous as he is, and she deserved to die.
I guess I am trying to say you seem to keep going hard in on Joel as if he was the only issue in that game. That, and I disagree with how you see him.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
I hope Joel is playable too.
Basketball
Member
eh whatever
both Fear effect 1 and 2 were quirky, comedic games kinda
regardless she still was the lead and a lesbian
Humanity has clearly evolved better science in this post-apocalyptic story. That would have to be true. We also would have to assume the cordyceps was in a region of the brain vital for living.
Either way, the most serious thing here is the idea that a cure could be found at all. Call me when humans cure cancer.
Nah.
This. Joel is far from being a psycho. People use that word too much. It dilutes the actual meaning. Killing a lot of people does not make one into a psychopath. A messed up individual (among other things)? Absolutely. Even David wasn't a psychopath.
TimeEffect
Member
Shit. I would love for Joel to be the main villain and for Ellie to escape him now.
I just love how tormented these characters are. The mental anguish you see is unbelievable. So many doubters about this game being a zombie game, but the story in LoU is so fucking good because of topics like this.
but despite that, Ellie seems to care for Joel and Joel for Ellie. I sincerely doubt she cared about the lie at this point in the story. And look, she stuck with Joel all this time so unless he forced her to stay, it's not like she's not thankful she's alive.
What Marlene did was horrible. She denied Ellie the agency to choose too. Joel's whole journey was taking Ellie to where she needed to go. Ellie cares deeply about Joel and she makes him see that, because he never originally did.
So despite the lie, they are both still there for each other. She speaks to him not in spite or hate, but as a companion.
Joel isn't a villain. He's a survivor. He does bad shit to survive. He doesnt want to be in that position. But he's doing it so long that he knows that's the world they live in. This is what he passes on to Ellie. You are forgetting that Ellie wanted to be with Joel.
You seriously cant expect Joel to have done ALL That with Ellie only for him to be ripped away from her.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
Just so you know (TLOU P2 major spoiler):
Joel dies in this game.
I've always had the notion that Ellie's reaction in the conclusion of TLOU seemed to indicate that she was already aware of the truth (or perhaps had an inkling of it)
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I don't think the complaints about Ellie were necessarily all that people were making them out to be earlier in the thread. Teenagers are often very, very, very annoying (if not insufferable), characters within video games. Middle-aged, gruff, violent dude may be a more boring route, but I can understand a preference for that out of concern for having a grating teen instead.
That said, I don't see anything to really fear from Ellie. Naughty Dog hasn't given me a huge reason to doubt them in terms of writing her yet. I'm very interested in mentally broken Ellie.
That said, I don't see anything to really fear from Ellie. Naughty Dog hasn't given me a huge reason to doubt them in terms of writing her yet. I'm very interested in mentally broken Ellie.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Ok, this is really, really strange when people say this.
Have you people noticed what state the world is in for the last 20 years? It's gone! Nothing is left, the world has turned over a new leaf. It's not "coming back", there is nothing to save! Society as Joel knew it is forever gone. He spent 20 years dealing with the fall of society, why would he give up the only loved one in his life (AGAIN) for the good of "humanity"?
It's so strange to see people basically say that Joel is insane and there isn't actually a bond between Ellie/Joel, and he's just a lunatic who is infatuated with this girl because he is reminded of his dead daughter.
Ivory Samoan
Gold Member
I would have loved a 50/50 split of Ellie/Joel this time around, but Ellie being the main protag is cool - I preferred Joel as a character though, his grimdark menacing vibe really resonated with me.
Having said that, Ellie seems pretty grimdark now too, good times ahead!
Having said that, Ellie seems pretty grimdark now too, good times ahead!
ForsakenLotus
Member
My point is I don't think they changed how she looked because people said she looked like Ellen Paige. I think they changed how she looked at least in part because in the original she looks older than she should.
Perfect. Although i think i trust in Druck to deliver more than the TD S02 team.
Of course it doesn't absolve Joel of everything he's done but then it's a fucked up world where you do what you have to do to survive. I just don't agree with him being called a villain or at least being made out to be worse than anyone else, regardless of how many times you want to say it's 'obvious'. I just don't agree with you.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Joel had every right in this situation to go HAM on the Fireflies when they forced him to accept the death of Ellie.
At this point Joel/Ellie are family, they specifically made the game a loop to have it connect to the prologue with having the ability to save Ellie instead of being helpless in her death, like Sarah.
Again, Joel is not a good person. He's killed innocent people to survive. Everyone in this world at this point has blood on their hands. That's what happens when you live through the end of human society.
TetraGenesis
Member
Regarding people saying Joel is a monster for not letting humanity have a cure for the virus: a huge point of the first game is that humanity has had its time. The world doesn't need humans. Humans destroy the world, destroy each other. Those giraffes were trapped in cages when humans were king, now they're free to roam nature and thrive.
Humanity doesn't need saving. And humanity itself does not exist as a quanitity of living humans; humanity is the true loving nature of Joel and Ellie's relationship. That is the real humanity, that's what's worth saving.
I agree with Joel's decision 100%. Even though you don't have to totally agree, I think people who see TLOU as a story where you play the "bad guy" are being incredibly shortsighted and morally absolute.
Humanity doesn't need saving. And humanity itself does not exist as a quanitity of living humans; humanity is the true loving nature of Joel and Ellie's relationship. That is the real humanity, that's what's worth saving.
I agree with Joel's decision 100%. Even though you don't have to totally agree, I think people who see TLOU as a story where you play the "bad guy" are being incredibly shortsighted and morally absolute.
excelsiorlef
Member
They absolutely changed her look because she looked like Ellen Page.
Page had Beyond Two Souls coming out and didn't appreciate how Ellie looked like her
DAREALGUMMY
Member
As I mentioned, I hadn't seen his earlier posts. My fault for seeing the partial context of it.
Really strange that because Joel is selfish and an asshole means I'm defending the government. I'm not.
His decision was NOT for the good of Ellie though. It's also why I think their relationship has deteriorated over the years.
Ellie isn't his daughter. She's a person who makes HIM feel a little better after the fact he lost his daughter. Joel was still willing to pass Ellie along to the next person even after they had been together for so long.
It's evil because he gives a shit more about how HE feels more so than Ellie herself.
That lie is protecting himself because he knows it was bullshit and it's against what Ellie wanted.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Yeah. Joel is my favorite character probably ever. I wanted him to make the decisions he did and I was happy when he made them. I would have done the same shit.
Heckler456
Banned
I really don't see it that way. You talk about people only seeing things that are "blatant and obvious", and yet you're only one step removed from that, instead of the extra step the game is trying to make you take. Which is that there are no villains or good guys, there are only people who are trying to survive, by any means necessary. Yes, even the fireflies and Marlene. Joel had Ellie to live for by the end, and yet you don't see that the only thing that pushed Marlene forward was "the cure at whatever cost", even while the world has LITERALLY fallen to shit around her, and she's part of a duo of factions fighting each other to the death; both of which are arguably far greater issues threatening humanity at this point, especially considering the seeming success of Tommy's settlement.
Also, there are way too many clues left throughout the game to at LEAST cast doubt unto the notion that Ellie actually meant to die by the end. There is also tons of symbolism and clues left throughout the game that show that, really, Joel didn't have a choice by the end of the game. We the player saw a choice, but to him, there was only one way that could have gone down.
Like, for example, the mirroring of events between the beginning of the game and the ending. Not just "Hey, that's neat. He ran with a little girl in his arms both times!". No, the beginning of the game and the ending of the game are, from Joels point of view, the EXACT SAME. Both times, an authority that were meant to protect him and his tried to take away the life of someone dear to him under the guise of "the greater good". First it was the government, so that they could stem the infection. Second time it was The Fireflies, so that they could get "A Cure". Joel already made that sacrifice once, and it did nothing for him, so I really don't see how you can come to the conclusion that the actions he undertook at the end were somehow meant to be villainous, especially considering that the cure would more than likely be meant for not only the people who just spent a year trying to kill him while getting to that hospital, but also the fact that he already saw that it's perfectly possible to restart civilization WITHOUT giving up the only thing that is dear to him (referring to Tommy's settlement). I can give more reasoning, but I think that's plenty enough.
As to clues dropped that that wouldn't have been Ellie's choice, twice she mentions things that they'd have to do after they're done with the whole vaccine thing: Right after the giraffe scene, where she says "after this, we'll go wherever you want to go" or something to that effect; and in the underground tunnels. Also, I really don't see how it would somehow be villainous to keep a suicidal girl for sacrificing herself for what is essentially a lost cause, because holy hell, have you seen the state of the world. A vaccine would have done fuck-all to make anything work.
So yeah. I love talking about this. Sorry
Deckard Chapel
Banned
Playing a video game is an entirely different way to experience a story than say, reading a book or sitting still and watching a movie.
You control the flow of the story, the speed of the action and the pace of the emotional investment you are prepared to make.
There is nothing bland about it.
Geez, thanks! I'll remember that!
From his subjective, traumatised perspective, yes. That's what the entire game's narrative is. Joel's perspective. (Except the short Ellie parts.) As an outsider we can see a bigger perspective. Yes, Joel's loop shows he is recapturing what he lost, but at a higher level he's just recreating a doomed situation within a doomed situation for selfish reasons.
(I agree with you btw. Just playing Devil's Advocate.)
I didn't say he was insane. I didn't say there wasn't a bond.
I'm just saying that if we decide that the surgery on Ellie had no chance of success (and that Joel would have logically deduced this), then the choice he makes at the end of the game is basically the same choice he makes when he decides to go after the community during Winter, which would be redundant storytelling.
toddhunter
Member
You should be able to understand it because you apparently missed the entire rest of the game.
Being a villain, doing right and doing wrong are relative things. Joel does not live in the same world as you and I. Killing a few people is no longer a big deal, you have to actually be selfish to survive. Did you forget about the previous sections where you killed about 400 people?
He is not a hero either, refreshingly, but he is also not a villain.
The point is that in a world where everyone is a monster, the definitions and standards for what is a monster changes. By TLoU's world I didn't see Joel as especially monstrous. And it is not obvious no matter how much you keep saying that. To you? Yes of course, but not to everyone. It's not always a matter of the others not having seen the light yet. Some things just are more open to interpretation. I think it's a good thing.
TimeEffect
Member
Joel is obviously mentally traumatized. But so is everyone. So is Ellie in this game. It makes no sense to look down on Joel for all that.
And I mean, the doctor held a knife to Joel. Come on, of course he's not going to try and talk things out with him. Fuck that.
Everyone playing that stage wanted to get to Ellie. We all made a beeline to save her.
People are acting as if the lie is a big deal. It's not. It's not about denying agency, when we dont know if Ellie was willing to die. Marlene simply put Ellie to sleep and didnt intend for her to wake up. That's cold. That hurts Joel and sends him into a fit of emotional rage that is completely understandable.
Cant believe people view Joel as a piece of shit when he does everything he could to protect Ellie, even when it was clear that he viewed it simply as a job.
And I think people are missing the fact that Winter was what sealed their bond. It's not like Joel was always selfishly saving her for himself. But he needed Ellie, and ellie made it clear she needs him.
I dont think the lie mattered at all. I think Ellie accepted a harsh lesson in survival that she never had to make because Joel made it for her. And that's okay because she was a kid.
Now she's doing it on her own, and it's not easy. Joel, with all his experience, sees this. Whether he's dead or not, he's there, and Ellie is no longer completely under his wing.
Also come on-- after EVERYTHING they both do, Ellie wouldn't HATE Joel for his lie. It's a speedbump in the grand scheme of their adventure. People are seriously blowing the ending out of proportion.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Uhhhh, what? Joel specifically asked Ellie if she just wanted to go back to his brothers base before they were captured and sent to the hospital. Their father/daughter relationship was specifically cemented at the end of winter, well after Joel was wanting to pass her off to Tommy because he was afraid of opening himself up to such a close relationship to Ellie, something Ellie was looking for and Joel was trying to shut down during the first part of Fall.
So... where are you getting this "He just wanted to pass her off", because at the end of the game that was not his goal/intentions.
Ellie isn't her daughter in blood... but you know adopted people are family and love each other, right?
ForsakenLotus
Member
Not to be difficult but that article doesn't back your point in the least. Did somebody that worked on The Last of Us or in a management position say they changed her look because she looked like Ellen Paige?
I'm not disputing that she looked like her. I have eyes
He's just a survivor. He's one of "the last of us".
Damn son, i should be on the copy team
Angelus Errare
Banned
Then don't play the fucking game. Simple solution to BS issue.