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[Deckard Chapel]

I loved playing as Joel, so I am a little bit disappointed. Still, Ellie is a good protagonist, so there is that.

Be careful sharing that opinion...

 

[Ganzlinger]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

I don't think so. Ellie was a playable character in the original game and she was the main playbale character from the DLC. Anyone could see her becoming the main pc for the sequel. Hell the game's story is more about her than any other character,

 

[theWB27]

Of course we do....

Like all the time

Take that literal if you like.

 

[toddhunter]

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

It is a bit mean to look down on people that haven't had the same mind training opportunities that you have. We are unfortunately going to miss things like this, but I do appreciate you working hard to point them out.

 

[broscientific]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

What would it take for you to see this decision as genuine?

 

[TimeEffect]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

What feels forced?

It's a sequel to a game about an old man and a young girl who is under the wing of the old father figure. Eventually she has to learn and fight for herself.

Joel's entire story was "father protecting girl". What's the point of playing Joel again when Part 1 said everything it needed to say?

As for Chloe... She's a big character that was missing from UC4. I consider it fan service.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't think so. Ellie was a playable character in the original game and she was the main playbale character from the DLC. Anyone could see her becoming the main pc for the sequel. Hell the game's story is more about her than any other character,

And the star of the prequel comic book series

 

[Via Purifico]

We legit have posts in this thread talking about how they cannot relate to a young female protagonist while ignoring that trend AAA games have taken to cater to middle age white men.

It is not a stretch of anyone's imagination to predict comments, not just from GAF and GAF would not have the worst, claiming that choosing a female lead is pandering.

Let's not kid ourselves that there are a lot of insecure men out there that will comment on why Ellie is now the protagonist and not Joel. Claiming that this switch was unnecessary despite not knowing what direction Naughty Dog wanted to take this series during its inception.

That's what I think they were getting at exactly and probably wasn't even talking about GAF specifically. There are still too many people out there who says "I can't relate to something that isn't like me" be it race, gender etc and complain how it's pandering when there plenty of games already that "panders" to straight white males.

All stories shouldn't be made for everyone as that's the point, it's the creators vision that he's sharing with the world you don't have to like it there's plenty of other media out there that suits your interests.


edit case in point above.

We shouldn't feign ignorance at all cause people are already calling it pandering and making a "political statement" whatever the fuck that means.

 

[boredandlazy]

Be careful sharing that opinion...

One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just isn't the same...

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

you sound like a normal person

 

[Kinyou]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

I can't follow your reasoning at all. How is Ellie being the protagonist in the sequel not a 100% logical choice after Tlou?

 

[Basketball]

HOW YOU GONNA COOK THE DOCTORS

CHIMON

 

[carlsojo]

Ellie will have a love interest and she'll end up murdering the shit out of him/her.

 

[sonicmj1]

See, I don't view the drama of the binary "SAVE THE WORLD / SAVE ELLIE" as interesting, because that's such a boring way to look at the situation and not what the game was even about.

The cure was a MacGuffin, a device to get Joel and Ellie from place to place to advance the plot, it was not THE plot or point of the story. The drama was not from thinking Joel was going to make a choice to save the world, because Joel would never do that in a 1000 years, the drama was Joel having the chance to take agency and not have the same situation repeat itself with being helpless at the whim of an organization that demands the sacrifice of his loved one.

Joel's character arc in the game is a movement from living without purpose to having someone to live for. The ending establishes just how far he is willing to go to protect that person, and just how highly he values her. He would not have fought the Fireflies to save her if they had a base right outside Pittsburgh, for instance.

His past experience is a big part of why he cares so much, but his ability to change that is just a matter of him becoming an experienced killer with a ton of weaponry. The reason I like the ending is because of how it shows his love for Ellie to be both beautiful and monstrous, that his act of compassion is also destructive and controlling (because Ellie might well have given her life if she'd known it could save the lives of many others). But if the Fireflies were going to essentially murder her, then it's just the obvious, noble choice, no different than when we fought packs of marauders and bandits all throughout the game.

 

[SomTervo]

I simply don't like Ellie. I don't like Pac-Man either - does that make me a bad person??

I feel like the only acceptable answer to most of the people in here is that I agree to play the game. it's like I'm being forced to decide to say "okay I'm going to play it", which I refuse to at this point.

That's totally fine - it was your justification that sounded half-baked and possibly even problematic.

If you point out what she said and did that you didn't like rather than just saying "she's a girl, i can't relate", we wouldn't be giving you beef. I'd hazard a guess that most of the millions who played the game a) weren't 14 year old girls and b) didn't have a problem relating to her, because her portrayal and development was acclaimed by critics and users alike.

Seriously though, just wait and see what people say about it after release. Also bear in mind they said she's the main protagonist, not the only protagonist.

Ouch, and true. Who gives a fuck how old she is or if it's a she or if it's unrelatable. It's her story and her journey. We always experience it through the eye of the creator and the characters no matter how much we think we can fill the character's shoes.

Yeah. Who makes a conscious decision about that, seriously. You'd only do that if the storyteller really failed to establish a character but that hasn't happened (yet).

 

[ForsakenLotus]

I simply don't like Ellie. I don't like Pac-Man either - does that make me a bad person??

I feel like the only acceptable answer to most of the people in here is that I agree to play the game. it's like I'm being forced to decide to say "okay I'm going to play it", which I refuse to at this point.

I don't even understand what you are complaining about, but what does Pac-Man have to do with you disliking a playable character for narrow minded reasons?

 

[Via Purifico]

Did we play the same game? lol Ellie being the new lead should be a surprise to no one since they are going with the same cast of characters.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I can't follow your reasoning at all. How is Ellie being the protagonist in the sequel not a 100% logical choice after Tlou?

Because it's a burn account

 

[gkovacs314]

What feels forced?

It's a sequel to a game about an old man and a young girl who is under the wing of the old father figure. Eventually she has to learn and fight for herself.

Joel's entire story was "father protecting girl". What's the point of playing Joel again when Part 1 said everything it needed to say?

As for Chloe... She's a big character that was missing from UC4. I consider it fan service.

I agree that we can make sense of it. But I can't overlook the fact the both games have taken the same decisions. In some level this was forced.

 

[Spartancarver]

Be careful sharing that opinion...

I feel you, man.

As a 26 year old male physician, I haven't been able to enjoy a game since Surgeon Simulator

 

[EviLore]

Nah.



This. Joel is far from being a psycho. People use that word too much. It dilutes the actual meaning. Killing a lot of people does not make one into a psychopath. A messed up individual (among other things)? Absolutely. Even David wasn't a psychopath.

He's a self-assured cannibal pedophile rapist mass murderer. What exactly dilutes the "actual meaning" of psychopathy? lol

 

[Confused Cheeseburger]

Y E S.

 

[toddhunter]

I can't follow your reasoning at all. How is Ellie being the protagonist in the sequel not a 100% logical choice after Tlou?

Because some people have spent years fighting against forced political correctness. They have made forum posts, created meme images, retweeted Trump until there was nothing left to retweet.

And yet even after all that, after so many people have literally gone to war to fight back we have a game being made with a female protagonist. It just makes no sense, the world was supposed to have changed.

It can't have all been for nothing.

 

[Squalor]

As for Chloe... She's a big character that was missing from UC4. I consider it fan service.

Damn, anime has ruined that phrase for me.

It used to be so innocent.

 

[kamineko]

seems fine

 

[SomTervo]

Be careful sharing that opinion...

It is nothing at all like what you have been saying.

 

[Keihart]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

Haven't played a game yet were it feels more fitting to change protagonist, the first game is the origin of the character without you knowing or letting you know. Now is time to chash the check. Not having Ellie as the main character would have been weird and only made sense if it wasn Joel's and Ellie's story anymore.

I despite quotas to push agendas, but you are tripping here, there is no reason to get triggered, it makes completle sense with tone and arc.

Edit: I bet that if there are sections were you play as Joel is gonna be a freaking power trip, it'll make you want to rip and tear like you were playing as the doom guy...probably.

 

[Darryl M R]

It is nothing at all like what you have been saying.

Exactly. That guy really can't take a L gracefully.

It's completely understandable if someone wanted to play Joel, and hopefully there will be section for that in the game.

Spoiler

Before Ellie kills him

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

You're projecting your own prejudice. You are no feminist.

 

[DBT85]

What even is this post? Faux outrage, instigating? Stealth shitpost? Seriously what is the point of saying this? I dont hear anyone complaining about it, most people here are perfectly fine with a AAA game having a female lead (like others already stated, chloe in uncharted, Aloy in horizon, to name a
Couple that people are fine with)

In fact im almost positive a lot of people here WANTED TLOU part 2 to star Ellie and the fallout of everything from part 1. Stop assuming everyone here are douchebags.

Please, there is now a thread dedicated to exactly what I was talking about. Some people get pissed if the main player in a big game they are expecting to like isn't a white dude. Its stupid and ridiculous, but it exists, and watching people try to justify it is always a fun read.

I also wasn't actually talking about NeoGAF, but more things like youtube comments or review comments or whatever.

 

[Retsudo]

I agree that we can make sense of it. But I can't overlook the fact the both games have taken the same decisions. In some level this was forced.

Forced by whom? Ellie makes 100% sense being the lead in TLoU, and Chloe is a good way of giving a character that played a big part in the older games and was absent from U4 a chance to expand her story, and give a little something back to the fans.

I'm not sure i follow the point you're trying to make.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

You're projecting your own prejudice. You are no feminist.

It's like the most common way people try and slip in their own personal agenda (specifically when it comes to feminism/race stuff/homosexuality in media)

"I support X, but not if...."

 

[Metroidvania]

I agree that we can make sense of it. But I can't overlook the fact the both games have taken the same decisions. In some level this was forced.

....Without any deeper contextual evidence to back this up, you are coming across as absolutely, absolutely reaching at straws to find something fits your narrative.

 

[SomTervo]

Exactly. That guy really can't take a L gracefully.

It's completely understandable if someone wanted to play Joel, and hopefully there will be section for that in the game.

Spoiler

Before Ellie kills him

Perhaps she already has...

Full disclosure:

Spoiler

i had to Urban Dictionary "take the L"

 

[TimeEffect]

I agree that we can make sense of it. But I can't overlook the fact the both games have taken the same decisions. In some level this was forced.

Everybody was asking about Chloe's whereabouts. They left her out of the game completely. After playing as Drake for so long, it's refreshing.

Sure, they could have gone Sam and Sully, but Chloe and Nadine sounds interesting AND allows the game to play differently. We've had enough of Sam and Sully, and how differently would Sam really play to Drake?

It's also a great way to test out the future of Uncharted, because if it's received well, they could potentially refresh the game by giving the IP to a different studio to do things their own way. I doubt anyone wants to play as Drake for the 5th time


And again, what sense does it make to play Joel for a sequel? What is he protecting? What is his motivation?

Like, we see him lose his daughter, and we connect with Ellie and that's the story between Joel, Sarah, and Ellie.

What could possibly be done for a sequel where we play as him again?

Now Ellie as a lead has a lot of potential. It doesn't leave the possibility of stagnating such a new IP. It doesnt rehash the first game, which everybody was scared of.

Having Joel as lead would have been very difficult to do justifiably. Having Ellie as the lead is different, and makes these characters worth visiting again.

I love Joel a ton, but everything about him was about his daughter and his loss.

All that said, Id love a standalone DLC where we play as him in his younger days. But that'd only work as an experimental DLC sidepiece, which I think is great for ND.

Their current method of making a game, and then side content that explores a different perspective is working out great.

 

[PK Gaming]

People are going to flip when Joel inevitably dies at the end

 

[gkovacs314]

You're projecting your own prejudice. You are no feminist.

Prejudices? Where?
I'm a female.

 

[Foxxsoxx]

So I guess if I didn't like playing Raiden in MGS2 and would have prefered to have played Snake like in the game before I am now a prejudiced asshole?

I don't mind playing as Ellie and have no strong opinion one way or the other, but the whole woman hating mentality if you prefer playing Joel is a bit irrational don't you think?

 

[ForsakenLotus]

I agree that we can make sense of it. But I can't overlook the fact the both games have taken the same decisions. In some level this was forced.

I don't want to discredit your stance on this, but two things:

If there is an issue of representation in an entertainment medium, and a company chooses to ask their studios to be more progressive and fair where and when they can, is that a bad thing? I mean this divorced of the subjective quality of the writing. Women make up half of the worlds population. The video game industry has largely catered to white men. If Sony wants their studios to have female leads or more prominent roles for females in their games...isn't that progress?

Also, most people view Ellie as a very well written character. Naughty Dog making her the main protagonist makes sense given the context of the story, her role in it, the prequel comics and the only story DLC. Not to mention she is even the character in front on promotional material. I don't see how it's forced.

Also, while I think the Chloe DLC is more debateable, I think my first point still stands, as well as Nathan's story coming to a wonderful conclusion. It's entirely possible to have more story DLC staring him, but I think choosing Chloe (or Cutter) not only gives them more leeway with the expansion but also is fanservice for a character who didn't get any screentime in UC4. We might even get more Sully which a lot of people wanted.

 

[jonjonaug]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

What on earth are you even talking about?

News flash there are still AAA games with male leads being made in 2016, and there will be plenty of them in 2017 too even!

 

[Kinyou]

People are going to flip when Joel inevitably dies at the end

What if Ellie dies?

M.Night.jpg

 

[Discotheque]

I hope she becomes as morally questionable as Joel was in the game. When it comes to game protagonists we are so often stuck with just good or sometimes bad people.

Also I hope Joel is already dead or something. I think it's kinda creatively devoid revisiting these two again. In fact I think making a sequel was a mistake but now that they have it would be cool to have a new story removed from the father/daughter one of the first

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

People are going to flip when Joel inevitably dies at the end

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

Man that is some pretty transparent projecting. What about any of what you're saying has any sort of bearing in reality?

 

[Darryl M R]

Perhaps she already has...

Full disclosure:

Spoiler

i had to Urban Dictionary "take the L"

Oh that would be terrible if they didn't let the character kill him! I want to control the moment.


I appreciate you exposing yourself to an unfamiliar phrase and Urban Dictionary (that site can be a hell hole sometimes lol just look up a common name)

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

People are going to flip when Joel inevitably dies at the end

I think most people expect Joel to be dead within the first part of the game, almost everyone is assuming her motivation is because of his death.

I think the big thing here is the Fireflies are retaliating against Joel for what he did, and Ellie doesn't know the entire truth. Although, with the amount of years that have gone by, she can have easily warped her recollection of the end of TLoU into something else, especially if it's years of Joel telling her the lie over and over again. It's not uncommon for people to create false memories.

 

[SomTervo]

I agree that we can make sense of it. But I can't overlook the fact the both games have taken the same decisions. In some level this was forced.

In 2014, Ubisoft released four games with white male protagonists.

I can't overlook that. It must have been forced.

Spoiler

Male white supremacist agenda confirmed.

 

[HK-47]

People are going to flip when Joel inevitably dies at the end

At the end? lol he is definitely dying before that.

 

[BigDes]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

The series is and has always been about Ellie

The only way not playing as her in this game would feel correct was if they moved on to completely different characters

I mean for fuck's sake we played as Ellie int the first game, too.

 

[JBwB]

Just confirmed by Neil at the PSX panel. Also, she's 19 in the game. Interesting. I really enjoyed her part in the first game, and I can't wait to see where this goes.

The game's theme is 'hate'.

So 5 years have passed since the events of the first game? IIRC Ellie was 14 in TLOU1.

Wonder what has happened since then, I'm so intrigued haha. The wait for this game is going to be brutal.