NormalFish
Banned
Why does this matter? This is supposed to be a bond between you and the animal. If the animal doesn't pay attention to you, there isn't a bond.
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The Last Guardian: Review Thread
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
Why does this matter? This is supposed to be a bond between you and the animal. If the animal doesn't pay attention to you, there isn't a bond.
Storm Chamber
Banned
So reading this a few view times, i want to ask: How does the game handle Trico ignoring or disobey actions. Does he shows his stubborn behavior, his dislikes or a distracted in a way, the player either can read. Either through animation, icons or other indicators. Has Trico a personality and patterns (similar to a dog or a cat), which the player can understand. So that the player knows, what Trico likes and hates, and how you can push him into the right direction?
Because there is a big difference between randomly not doing something and actually having a personally, you either explore or shape.
Hah, didn't see that.
Yeah, weird.
Edit: the poster went even deeper, yeesh. I'd like to hear about the actual quality of the review's writing and rhetoric, if anything.
DoubleTake
Member
Exactly the point I'm making. I agree with you.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Historical reaction to this game is going to be crucial. It's going to take painstaking analysis to determine how much of Trico's behaviour is intentional.
I trust Eurogamer and Simon Parkin - the latter probably being the best games writer out there at the moment - so I'm leaning towards it being intentional and also able to be understood if the player is attentive and patient. Looking forward to playing it to find out for myself.
I suspect by this time next year, when there's been hours long, in-depth videos analysing the game, it'll be declared a masterpiece, and by this time in five years, it'll be hard to find people who don't say they loved it all along.
Getting below an 80% in school where I live is probably a sign you aren't doing so hot and are probably a little bit above average if anything. If my kid comes home with an 82% it just means they are doing a little bit to decently above average. So I guess game scores reflect real life
NormalFish
Banned
One of my dogs was abused and confined for most of her adult life before we got her. She was horrified of more or less everything, including me. Do giant bird-dogs suffer trauma unlike any animal we've seen before? That's a convenient way to excuse bad AI.
can confirm. I got like 72% in my Bsc. put me in for a 1st class degree, there isn't a higher grade than that! Though i assume the higher achievers would go onto do a masters or PHD's and/or get their dissertations published.
replace "real life" with "my school grading system"
What we? You worked on the game?
It's like people think they're sports fans cheering on a local team. "We did it!" No. You objectively did not.
Omnistalgic
Member
you make sense...
It's just a difficult thing to really define. Right now, reviewers definition of a 10 doesn't mean perfect, its simply the highest honor. But, if the case just boils down to, there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with a game mechanically, you get into other areas that are super subjective like story, narrative, art, design, etc...
For example, TLG, even with it's issues, is getting 10/10 from some review sites, I doubt I would rate it perfect, but it's likely to be my GOTY, whereas something like Metroid Prime I hardly enjoyed at all. I borrowed my cousin's Gamecube and went out of my way to play it because of all the praise, and it was just boring as sin to me. Is there something technically wrong with the controls? No, but the narrative, pacing, and overall aesthetics, just didn't hold my interest.
So I'm not sure we are really in agreement or disagreement, but i think its fine to use the current 10/10 as it is. Not an absolute measure, but it representing the highest honor or recommendation.
Trico is also abused, in a cage and neglected at the beginning of the game from most reports. Ever try and take in an abused dog? Let me say from experience its incredible tough to get them to respond to you in a way a normally adjusted animal would.
LurkFish17
Member
Looks like it's gonna stay in 80s. All major sites have already reviewed it right?
SolidSnakeUS
Member
Can't wait to play this. Also, anyone else still have their Amazon order at "Shipping Soon"?
Unknown?
Member
Are you really asking why it doesn't matter? Why don't you go to a pack of lions and see if they do what you want like a couple of house cats. Rofl Also you must not have read reviews to know throughout the game it gets more responsive.
Already Torn
Banned
An AI that develops over time is way more impressive than one that simply says "If command = A then action = A".
Secondly, you must have some miraculous cats. Most cats won't even bother to divert their gaze, let alone perform tasks upon command.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Did I just get that man killed?
Very important question imo. From what I've read it seems like it falls more in line with actually having a personality. But I can totally see that some people would still be put off with that.
NormalFish
Banned
Yes, like I said just before you responded. What I'm seeing from trico isn't an adverse response (which is what you get with abused animals). You jumping up and down doesn't make trico fearful and back away, afraid of being hurt. You jumping up and down and hootin' and hollarin' is completely ignored. More like a lazy spoiled lard of a dog than an abused one.
Does it actually develop in any meaningful way? It doesn't seem very impactful if it does, but maybe I missed that when reading this thread.
And yeah, cats being responsive is a breed thing, frequently. Some breeds will be very "dog-like" and respond to everything, some will be rather apathetic.
Omnistalgic
Member
yeah, it's as nonsensical as being a fan of a team. You have no weight if "your" teams wins or loses, all you can do is "cheer" lol.
Yet there's millions and millions of fans of just about everything, from teams, to cars, to authors, and yes even to video game creators.
I'm a fan of TLG and the creator, and speaking to like minded individuals. No reason to be so exact, its light-hearted in nature. Get the stick out of your ass man
Okay so I just did a re-count on the OP
27 out of 60 reviews gave it a 9+ score.
45% of reviews is a 9+ (those which gave it a score)
That isn't occasional? That is basically half the reviews out there.
and screw that IGN Italia score of 8.9. Seriously, stop with that kind of thing.
MemoryHumanity
Member
Sounds pretty much exactly what I was expecting. I can handle the technical flaws - ICO and SotC controlled and ran like shit too, doesn't stop them from being two of the greatest games of all time. Hype!
3rdamention
Member
UK grading =/= North American grading. Video game reviews reflect North American grading system. Hence your disconnection with the process.
It's very sad that people view a game as SUPER UNPRECEDENTEDLY DIVISIVE when it gets mostly 8s, with some 6s, 7s, and 9s. The garbage 7-10 review score has completely warped our collective perception of these things.
Video game scoring is haphazard and not consciously modeled on anything.
Video game scoring is haphazard and not consciously modeled on anything.
lol since when. Game reviews are not standardised nor should they be.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Bad AI would be in the case the AI dosn't act like in the way is programmed. In this case, seems is behaving in the exact way is was designed.
You might not like this design choice, but is not bad AI.
I think I might take a pass on this game. I like the concept, but the execution has me worried. Making Trico do what you want him to sounds like it can be a real pain at times; there's nothing worse than knowing what to do and how to do it and then being unable to carry it out through no fault of your own.
Literally on this page and last: in the UK, at many colleges, getting 70 is considered a first-class degree and you'll do brilliantly off it. 60 is considered OK.
(The conversation is meaningless.)
Why not. All grading is arbitrary, when a professor marks an essay or any other piece of writing and gives it a random percentage the exact same thing occurs.
The only review that truly matters.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Yeah those people saying its divisive.....like nah, a couple of low scores (<6) while the bulk are around 8/9 is not divisive. The picture is clear.
You can easily see what's the difference between 80 and 60 (for example)
But I have no idea what's supposed to be the difference between an B- and a C
Great reviews, never expected it to reach this high seeing as the game has been in development for ten years, Fumito Uedas games are not for everyone and of course because it going to have technical mistakes. But a solid 8 with some 9, 10 and editors choice and already Game of the Year from Guardian is making me so happy!
I'm not buying a PS4 Pro when I have a fine PS4 Poor, so this sounds like a PS5 remaster job.
Both this and FF15 ended up being decent if not great, about the best you could hope for really.
Literally years ago Ueda said 'Trico's AI is a simulation of an animal which has never had meaningful contact. There are times when it won't do what you want it to, just like any animal.'
> the AI does this exactly as programmed and described
> people call it 'unresponsive' and 'bad AI'.
OK.
The 3 main points of contention seemt o be:
Technical issues, like framerate
Trico does not listen to you sometimes and its annoying
camera is wonky and gets in the way.
Nothing that I think will hinder my enjoyment of the game I suppose, one of the most interesting things to me is that trico is not a straight up mechanic, but has his moods. It might get annoying, sure, but I was prepared for that.
And Im plahying on a ps pro with 1080p, so best framerate.
Technical issues, like framerate
Trico does not listen to you sometimes and its annoying
camera is wonky and gets in the way.
Nothing that I think will hinder my enjoyment of the game I suppose, one of the most interesting things to me is that trico is not a straight up mechanic, but has his moods. It might get annoying, sure, but I was prepared for that.
And Im plahying on a ps pro with 1080p, so best framerate.
astroturfing
Member
"Essential" from Eurogamer and 10/10 from the Guardian are enough for me. most likely a game i will love and cherish.
wtf is that 4/10? lol. come on now. just for the incredible amount of hard work put into the animations it deserves a 7/10.
wtf is that 4/10? lol. come on now. just for the incredible amount of hard work put into the animations it deserves a 7/10.
More_Badass
Member
You can read Y2Kev's very detailed and comprehensive review in the Impressions thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1321655
Why is it more impressive? This isn't an actual AI that "learns"; The programming starts at a 100% completion state and is programmed to be more imprecise. That's the way programming works.
It's still:
if command == A, then action = B
where B =
[ A 10% of the time at hour 1
A 30% of the time at hour 2
A 75% of the time at hour 3
A 95% of the time at hour >= 4]
All this does is extend the time the user has to spend on each possible solution. If there are a pool of 3 different possible solutions and the user takes about 2 minutes to interact with each solution on direct input, it just forces the user to interact multiple times, even beyond what appeared to be fail states.
Basically, if you think you have a solution and you point the command at that solution and system carries out the command but results in a non-continuing state, the user is required to input that state an indefinite number of times for possible success states.
KZObsessed
Member
Some of the praise in the high scoring reviews is quite amazing, though it seems a little more divisive than I expected.
ICO is one of my favourite games ever, to me it's perfect, so hopefully I end up loving this.
ICO is one of my favourite games ever, to me it's perfect, so hopefully I end up loving this.
Unknown?
Member
You have missed a lot. Trico does roar at you and not want you there when you first find him until you take the spears out of him and free him. It takes some time to earn trust for any animal and obviously Trico isn't going to be scared like a dog as this boy is no threat. You're digging and digging deep but there is no substance there to your argument.
I think the mistake made by some thinking about this is that the AI is not their in a vacuum. The entire game is pushing a very specific narrative and style of game and that is working with a huge companion that is far more able than you but not always the most likely to help you out at the start. Its not for everyone but combined with the aesethetics like music and the visuals, the puzzles and environments and so on that it "sells" the idea of a difficult partner.
Already Torn
Banned
Since everyone considers sub-70 to be hot trash
backflip10019
Member
That arrogance. Damn.
DoubleTake
Member
While you aren't wrong, this is why gamers can become so jaded. Think too deeply about it and sometimes the creator's intended effect can be lost.