Jangowuzhere
Banned
I don't know, let me look at the past century of books and movies that have done seductive females in the past without them being half naked 95% of the time.
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Kojima: Overly sexualized women in DS will be given a deep background story"
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
I don't know, let me look at the past century of books and movies that have done seductive females in the past without them being half naked 95% of the time.
Looks like someone has never played Hitman: Absolution, though that is probably for the best.
LordKasual
Banned
I love how this tweet is both acknowledging over-sexuality and confirming that it's returning
never change Kojima
never change Kojima
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
Wading through the early posts in this thread and holy shit the amount of the "what about the sexualized men!" defense posts.
Gynemaniac
Member
Please have Emma Stone cast in Death Stranding...please have Emma Stone cast in Death Stranding...
I wish Kojima would just admit that he wants to see sexy women in his game instead of giving some contrived reason and backstory for the characters' sexiness.
I wish Kojima would just admit that he wants to see sexy women in his game instead of giving some contrived reason and backstory for the characters' sexiness.
Salty Rice
Member
Im ok with this. I like boobs.
So many here should be ashamed of their words and deeds.
So many here should be ashamed of their words and deeds.
Eh...Well, you're not wrong, there are ways of being seductive without nakedness. I feel like Inara from Firefly accomplishes this well. She's usually in a dress, but nothing overly immodest and her literal job is to be seductive and she does it well. It's more in how she acts, the body language, etc.
But I just think Eva is relatively inoffensive compared to other MGS women due to the circumstances. And honestly as a means of seduction, just being halfnaked isn't an invalid way of doing it. It's just...blunt. A club that Eva tries to beat Snakes head over while Inara wields her seduction as a scalpel with precision.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Why don't you direct that to Kojima? The guy who's actively trying to give an excuse for this shit which is the thing people here are actually commenting on.
Kojima's portrayal of women is blatantly sexist whilst he claims that it isn't and ignoring it isn't going to change that. Just because a game's 18+ doesn't mean the 18+ elements in it can't be critiqued. This isn't rocket science.
Alright, tell me when you're done looking.
Until then I'll assume you're suggesting a game where Snake catches a smile from a bookish, cute librarian whom he sees week after week and develops feelings for.
That's not being seductive. In fact, in that example, the librarian doesn't even seem to be actively doing anything.
As a quick example, when she first shows some skin she also then gives him a gun, Snake pays way, way more attention to the gun than her body. That should have been a clue right there. He's not interested in having tits shoved in his face, he's a gun nerd. Nerd out with him. Ask him about other guns he likes. Show him your favorite gun. Create a banter based on the common interest that he clearly is so into. That's character based seduction, not just "I have boobs, you must obey"
Honestly, thinking about it, while I think Eva being halfnaked all the time is appropriate for her character, it makes her kind of....stupid. I mean, she keeps trying to shove her tits in snake's face, and at no point does it really work. A good seductionist would change tactics, but she just keeps getting half naked thinking something's gonna happen and it doesn't until the end of the mission where he's personally bonded with her. She should have been personally bonding the moment she got a hint that that's what he really wanted.
WrenchNinja
Member
someone remind me why quiet never bothered to write anything down
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Because reasons.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Her body language already says it all.
marlowesghost
Member
We just did this with quiet. And it was an embarrassing joke. Spinning that hamster wheel.
She didn't want to reveal anything because she still wanted to kill Snake all the way until the end where she saves his life, even though she also helps Snake on missions and doesn't kill him for ages because she loves him I guess.
Peroroncino
Member
She can't because she breathes through her skin man, don't you know anything?
Messofanego
Banned
Silent Hill
Banned
The more tits the better. People who complain about it are fucking pathetic.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Something about revenge.
She still had the desire of finishing her original mission with killing Snake, but then having second thoughts after working with him.
It's pretty dumb.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
��
It's better when you tell us how you really feel.
Sex doesn't sell.
Do you have any evidence of this?
Quiet has a fantastic design, if you put her in a vacuum. In the context of the real world, it becomes problematic. I think the way that you personally approach media will really affect how you appreciate these types of characters, and I think that multiple ways are valid. Personally when I am enjoying someone's creation, I like to shut off my sense of real world context and approach it as though it had spontaneously appeared in an empty space. In that realm I experience Quiet as a striking character rather than a objectified one. Yes Quiet is risqué, but my experience isn't burdened by her being demeaning.
The real world reality though is that yes, she is demeaning, and if Kojima were a more responsible person he would not have her dressed that way. Some people will approach media from that perspective, and that is just as valid as my way - probably more so actually. I can't help but enjoy people that aren't responsible at times though. It's a guilty pleasure. The guilty pleasure is not seeing skin, it's seeing a creator create with disregard for societal pressure. Even if what they make is ugly or ill-advised I love seeing it. At the same time I understand that the enjoyment of unfiltered vision is not actually a good excuse for being socially irresponsible, hence why it's a guilty pleasure.
The real world reality though is that yes, she is demeaning, and if Kojima were a more responsible person he would not have her dressed that way. Some people will approach media from that perspective, and that is just as valid as my way - probably more so actually. I can't help but enjoy people that aren't responsible at times though. It's a guilty pleasure. The guilty pleasure is not seeing skin, it's seeing a creator create with disregard for societal pressure. Even if what they make is ugly or ill-advised I love seeing it. At the same time I understand that the enjoyment of unfiltered vision is not actually a good excuse for being socially irresponsible, hence why it's a guilty pleasure.
I bet you thought this didnt sound fucking pathetic.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yes. Her lungs were burned and now she literally breathes through her skin.
eyeball_kid
Member
Quiet is sexualized, but she's not a sexist portrayal.
Quiet:
- Always keeps her agency. She chooses whether to stay or leave Mother Base. No one makes her dress that way; she chooses those clothes (you can argue that Kojima did, but that's a different discussion).
- Saves
Big Boss
- Is not a victim: she kills her assailants during the
attempted rape scene
- Her story ends on her terms
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Sex doesn't actually sell. Stop using that argument.
I posted a translation. Not a direct quote.
Yes she is. She's the poster child for sexism in the industry.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Am I missing something? This is about advertisements attached to violent/sexy programming, not the programming itself. It even says
Messofanego
Banned
Sex doesn't sell. It will distract you from the product being advertised, and you'll probably just want to beat off than remember the product. Sex sells sex, so it's better if the product advertised has to do with sex.
Let me know what the biggest selling games are. They're definitely not the ones with a lot of sex appeal as their main selling point.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Read the post below you. Also consider the sales of things like Bayonetta and Gravity Rush in comparison to other IPs. Granted, sexualization isn't the only reason those things don't sell. Mine craft is one of the highest grossing video games of all time.
"It is true that sexual and violent programs pull larger audiences than neutral ones, but a larger reach does not necessarily translate into more sales for advertisers."
I feel like you didn't even look at the study, just read the headline. Programs with sex get a larger than average viewership, ads during that time are less effective. It's all about advertisements, not content of the actual thing.
Edit: Also, kind of important to note that you don't actually "buy" sexual TV shows, like you would with other forms of media.
Netherscourge
Banned
Kojima is part of the problem.
neurosisxeno
Member
Put it in my butt, daddy
That's like the same camera angle and feel of 99% of bangbus videos...
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
The fact it was Kojima decided to dress, frame and direct her is the most obvious reason as to why her portrayal is sexist. Even the in fiction reasons for her exposure don't hold up given The End. Her being a silent ass kicker doesn't prevent her from being sexist. To be honest the attempted rape was horrible too given it had zero impact on the narrative and made no sense.
Nothing you put forward was evidence against the elements that make her a sexist character. Further still the whole "She's sexualised but not sexist!" is a really weak argument given EVA's in the series and she could still be argued as being a sexist trope.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Now imagine a game that isn't a decade old IP with a character like Quiet or a sexy alternates in its advertising. By your logic DOA should be one of be highest grossing franchises of all time.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Mother of god... Its true. How have I never made this connection?
It obviously does, trying to equate ads during a sexual show (I don't even know wtf that is) to buying content with sexual content in it is dumb.
eyeball_kid
Member
edit: I don't want to get into this argument
By your logic no one would buy porn ever. It's almost like twisting someone's argument to the extreme to make it fit your narrative is an idiotic thing to do.
And DoA probably does plenty well, there is a reason they keep pumping out those weird beach games.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
I don't know, I find characters like Cindy from FFXV to be far worse. She's dressed in such an outlandish and sexual fashion, and absolutely no one bats an eye. Nothing in the game ever brings up Cindy's dumb design. It is simply shoved in your face, and you're expected to consider it "normal" in that world. I personally found that far more uncomfortable and sexist.
On the other hand, everything about Quiet is painfully self aware. The MGS world considers Quiet to be an oddity and an outcast. The soldiers consider her a freak and no one really trusts her besides Ocelot and/or Boss. Not to mention, all the shower bullshit, dancing in the rain, and fighting in her underwear at the end is all sort of the games way of playing the sexuality as a joke. It's still awful and shit, but I think other games are worse when it comes to this stuff.
SiteSeer
Member
Not this time, Kojima... just outright admit if you're gonna sexualise the characters... don't hide behind a shield of white armour.
"Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here. This stuff will make you a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me."
Messofanego
Banned
That claim is not from the actual study, it's just from Fortune. All the results in the study point to sexualised and violent ads not being as brand effective as nonviolent/nonsexual (i.e. neutral) ads. "There were no significant effects of sexual or violent ads on memory or buying intentions".
Brand Attitudes:
Media content. Overall, attitudes were significantly less favorable for brands embedded in violent media than for the same brands embedded in neutral media, d 0.37; 95%CI 0.55, 0.18; k 9.
Only one study examined attitudes for brands in sexual media, so we were not able to conduct meta-analyses for sexual media (Bello et al., 1983). However, that studys effect size was in the same direction as the effect sizes for violent media, d 0.26, 95% CI 0.52, 0.01.
Ad content. Overall, attitudes were significantly less favorable for brands in sexual ads than for the same brands in neutral ads, d 0.32; 95% CI 0.55, 0.10; k 11.
Buying Intentions:
Media content. Overall, buying intentions were significantly lower for brands in media containing violence, sex, or both violence and sex than for the same brands in media containing no violence or sex, d 0.26; 95% CI 0.53, 0.004; k 8.
Effects did not significantly differ for programs containing violence (d 0.27; 95% CI 0.53, 0.013; k 7), sex (d 0.19; 95% CI 0.63, 0.26; k 3), and both violence and sex (d 0.24; 95% CI 0.91, 0.44; k 2), 2 (2) 0.10, p .95. However, only the confidence interval for programs containing violence excluded the value zero.
Ad content. Overall, buying intentions did not depend on whether the ad contained sex or violence, d 0.04; 95% CI 0.12, 0.20; k 13. Effect sizes did not significantly differ for sexual ads (d 0.10; 95% CI 0.03, 0.23; k 22) or violent ads (d 0.03; 95% CI 0.27, 0.32; k 5), 2 (1) 0.21, p .65. Both confidence intervals included the value zero.
Media content. Overall, buying intentions were significantly lower for brands in media containing violence, sex, or both violence and sex than for the same brands in media containing no violence or sex, d 0.26; 95% CI 0.53, 0.004; k 8.
Effects did not significantly differ for programs containing violence (d 0.27; 95% CI 0.53, 0.013; k 7), sex (d 0.19; 95% CI 0.63, 0.26; k 3), and both violence and sex (d 0.24; 95% CI 0.91, 0.44; k 2), 2 (2) 0.10, p .95. However, only the confidence interval for programs containing violence excluded the value zero.
Ad content. Overall, buying intentions did not depend on whether the ad contained sex or violence, d 0.04; 95% CI 0.12, 0.20; k 13. Effect sizes did not significantly differ for sexual ads (d 0.10; 95% CI 0.03, 0.23; k 22) or violent ads (d 0.03; 95% CI 0.27, 0.32; k 5), 2 (1) 0.21, p .65. Both confidence intervals included the value zero.
Xisiqomelir
Member
Will there be a design reveal and a story conceal like we had with Quiet?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yes she is, her dressing skimpily and for no logical reason falling Big Boss who has the personality of a snail is incredibly sexist. Hell, consider she's the only woman in the intro and her face is shown. She's literally the only soldier not wearing a mask. Which btw, is the entire catalyst for her plot line, an assassin didn't wear her mask like her male peers. She's also less independent and more an exact example of that sexism is over meme. And yes, many aspects of Bayonetta are sexist. None of Quiets actions make sense in context and all seem there to justify being oogled at by the player.
They've made three beach volleyball games. One of which was so niche it didn't even get a U.S. release and even then it didn't selngangbusters in Japan since hey rely on whales who'll buy costumes. And consider that you're equating the depiction of women in games to pornography.
The soldiers view her as an outcast not because she's dressed like an idiot but because she's an assassin. They ogle her when she takes a shower, and frankly, so does the player. The soldiers disdain has everything to do with her origin and not with her being a blatantly failed Attempt at writing a female character. Cindy is not as bad because at least rape and specialized torture aren't included in her plot line in an attempt to make her seem strong. She's still godawful. Seriously these devs need to step it up.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
This is gonna be fun.