-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
GAF Running Club |OT| - Couch to Marathons, All abilities
- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
mdsfx
Member
Like 191?
Yeah I thought that started to sound like a lot of steps for that pace. Looking up my watch, I ran 159steps/min at 4:10/K earlier. (I think I run around 160/min at most paces unless I'm trying rly rly hard). 30 more steps per minutes at around the same pace sounds like a lot, I dunno. Then again it's only 10ish over the golden number. And some people do run at 200+, but that's at much faster speed typically. I think.
Edit: hmmm, Nicho ran close to 200/min at 3:51/K....hmmmm, me running at 3:56, I'm only at 164. I dunno. Maybe I should try picking up the cadence and see what happens. Hmmmmmm, guy I ran that 10K with was at 185/min at sensibly the same pace. I see Jordi at 166 running 4:38. I think Jordi and I are right and all y'all wrong!
Edit: hmmm, Nicho ran close to 200/min at 3:51/K....hmmmm, me running at 3:56, I'm only at 164. I dunno. Maybe I should try picking up the cadence and see what happens. Hmmmmmm, guy I ran that 10K with was at 185/min at sensibly the same pace. I see Jordi at 166 running 4:38. I think Jordi and I are right and all y'all wrong!
frontieruk
Member
Getting closer to my PB for parkrun which was set on a flat course just over a minute difference, the course I'm now on has two rather nasty (for me) climbs, my times nothing compared to you machines in here but improvement makes me feel good.
Good job! The only person it makes sense to compare your times to is yourself, you can always find faster or slower out there.
You should consider joining the gaf strava club! (even though I never even post runs anymore and barely ever check out other people's runs but whatever!)
In completely unrelated news, I went out and bought myself a new pair of shoes yesterday to make me feel better about life, some cheap looking adidas
Wtf is this shit! Huge toe box, but no room on the sides, feet squeezed left and right like fat sausages! Huge drop (or so it feels)! Wanted to verify drop, been trying to look up the exact model online and can't seem to find it. Rubbery feel up front, can't feel the road! No cushyness up front! Aaaah! Going back to my frees, fuck all that shit.
Tons of cushioning at the heel. That I have no use for. Wtf is my problem, why!?
frontieruk
Member
Good job! The only person it makes sense to compare your times to is yourself, you can always find faster or slower out there.
You should consider joining the gaf strava club! (even though I never even post runs anymore and barely ever check out other people's runs but whatever!)
In completely unrelated news, I went out and bought myself a new pair of shoes yesterday to make le feel better about life, some cheap looking adidas ultra boost, I think same model my wife has had for a bit now and she loves them.
Wtf is this shit! Huge toe box, but no room on the sides, feet squeezed left and right like fat sausages! Huge drop (or so it feels)! Wanted to verify drop, been trying to look up the exact model online and can't seem to find it. Rubbery feel up front, can't feel the road! No cushyness up front! Aaaah! Going back to my frees, fuck all that shit.
Tons of cushioning at the heel. That I have no use for. Wtf is my problem, why!?
I've been unhappy since Adidas dropped the Response trainer range, I bought a pair of Response boosts and had the same issue you describe, so will have to look for new runners when the weather improves as I'm using cross runners ATM due to the mud and water on my routes.
Duebrithil
Member
At 10K race pace I'm at 175spm though
But yeah, I think a higher cadence is good but how high it is will also be limited by the pace you are running at. There's got to be a point where shorter steps become more efficient than longer ones.
Join the Kinvara sect my man, you won't regret it.
I mean, the legs are a mechanical oscillator when you run, like a pendulum, only a lot more complicated (in particular due to contacts, but joint angles do follow a limit cycle and motion is periodic, for steady pace). For each pace you run at, there's likely some resonance frequency (peak efficiency cadence), but, to my understanding of mechanics, that depends a lot on what I'd call system parameters, in particular rotational inertia of the legs, and impedance of muscles and tendons. It's a complicated picture, and I find it reductive and borderline insulting that, because some old coach counted the steps of some elite kenyans and ethiopians on a fast 10K, everyone parrots out the 170-180 line (don't mean you, I mean people in general), which has kind of become a meme at this point.At 10K race pace I'm at 175spm though
But yeah, I think a higher cadence is good but how high it is will also be limited by the pace you are running at. There's got to be a point where shorter steps become more efficient than longer ones.
I might try at some point. Next pair will be nike frees though. I've been trying to vary to have different rides to run in, to vary the stress on legs and joints (I've been running so little though, it's not like they're stressed at all right now. Hamstring and knee niggles are completely gone though, so that's good.) Right now it's all frees, a pegasus zoom something, and then the adidas train wreck.
Duebrithil
Member
Oh, definitely. I think it's much more beneficial to focus on running form first, and then let cadence be whatever it may be.
frontieruk
Member
Festwill made claims that natural cadence/stride distance should be runners primary concern rather than numbers collected from elite runners.
from my cycling I'd agree but I do have more power in my legs compared to the guys I ride with so can keep ahead/up with them with a lower cadence that suits me but using higher gears to achieve the speed.
off duty ninja
Member
Hi folks, I just joined the strava group. I don't post a lot, more of a lurker but love reading all your posts. I am excited to be able to share my progress with you via Strava!
Are there any groups using Nike + here too? Its my favorite tracker mainly because it is what I have used for years and I am from Nike's hometown.
Are there any groups using Nike + here too? Its my favorite tracker mainly because it is what I have used for years and I am from Nike's hometown.
Duebrithil
Member
Look at those toons poor form smh
vacantseas
Member
8 months from today I'll be running my first marathon (Chicago)
Currently training for a half (my second) in May. Plan on building off that and train for the full marathon through the summer.
Currently training for a half (my second) in May. Plan on building off that and train for the full marathon through the summer.
Guys,
I'm feeling a bit down and I need a bit of a pick-me-up.
I started running again in January after a decent hiatus (2 years or so). I managed to hit 12 runs throughout the month of Jan despite starting a new job, 3 hours of commuting and two small children and I was very happy.
I got out on for 3 runs last week on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. On Saturday I went snowboarding (which was good cross-training) and then it snowed like a mother on Sunday/Monday so did 40 minutes on the eliptical on Monday.
Today was going to be my running day but I'm sick. Some flu bug has hit me and I feel like I'm going to throw up. I'm at work and will be leaving around 4PM but I just dont have it in me to run today. I feel like I'll throw up.
But if I take a few days off - how will that impact my fitness? I'm scared that all that work I put in will go down the shitter because of this bug.
I'm feeling a bit down and I need a bit of a pick-me-up.
I started running again in January after a decent hiatus (2 years or so). I managed to hit 12 runs throughout the month of Jan despite starting a new job, 3 hours of commuting and two small children and I was very happy.
I got out on for 3 runs last week on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. On Saturday I went snowboarding (which was good cross-training) and then it snowed like a mother on Sunday/Monday so did 40 minutes on the eliptical on Monday.
Today was going to be my running day but I'm sick. Some flu bug has hit me and I feel like I'm going to throw up. I'm at work and will be leaving around 4PM but I just dont have it in me to run today. I feel like I'll throw up.
But if I take a few days off - how will that impact my fitness? I'm scared that all that work I put in will go down the shitter because of this bug.
off duty ninja
Member
I personally had a pretty rough January as well due to the weather and other factors. I was really anxious and felt like crap knowing I wasn't getting the mileage that I wanted. I have found that when I take an extended break I feel REALLY good when I finally do get out again and as long as the hiatus isn't more than a week or two I don't lose too much fitness.
Don't beat yourself up too much and when you do get back out there just take it nice and easy. It will feel great just breathing again.
It's accurate to my running form these days! As I run laps around my office desk, trying to put out dumpster fires all over.
Not one bit. Get the rest you need.
mdsfx
Member
Hey that'll be my first full as well! Hopefully training for the Triathlon doesn't get in the way of me hitting the recommend mileage.
The_Inquisitor
Member
Did 400m repeats for first time since the fall season. I basically led my run group the entire time. On the 12th I wanted to kick and dead sprint it, but I felt bad and hung back with them. This is in comparison to the fall where I basically dropped to the ground on the 12th loop.
If you consistently train you will generally get improvement early on. I can tell the difference clearly right now. I'm excited to keep getting faster.
If you consistently train you will generally get improvement early on. I can tell the difference clearly right now. I'm excited to keep getting faster.
falconxcrunner09
Member
Those interval times sound normal to me for your 5K time. Do you ever do form drills and hills? Not saying your form is bad, but straightening up a few loose angles (if there are any) can very directly affect speed. Do report back on speed gains from lifting. I've never found the motivation (and not sure how much I believe in it at our level), but I'm definitely interested in hearing your results!
Update:
I lifted two days last week, Mon and Wed. Lifted Mon and Wed this week. Before my lift, I ran some 200s to see if my speed has changed. It has changed significantly. 3 weeks ago I was hitting 36-38 200s rep consistently. Before lifting on Wed, I ran some 200s and dropped the times down to 31-32 with a bad back from squatting and hadn't run the day before. Lifting is really working, but I am so sore and in so much pain lol. But its paying off, my speed is significantly improving. My endurance and long distance running is taking a hit though due to this shitty Mass winter weather. Its impossible to run long distance 6-7 days a week since its so cold out, always snowing, etc. I'm going to see if I can consecutively get under 30 in the 200 and in the low 60s in the 400 before March hits
thestopsign
Member
I bumped up my longest run from 7 miles to 8.2 miles this past weekend. Gonna try to aim for 10+ on Saturday/Sunday. I might need to pack some of that energy goop on the run to give me a late race boost. I definitely start to lose energy towards the hour mark of my runs.
I'm getting more confident that I have the fitness to run my half on March 4th so I'm backing off a bit and cross training more so I have only been running 3 or 4 times a week. Trying not to hurt myself and it seems to help me feel better when I do run.
I'm getting more confident that I have the fitness to run my half on March 4th so I'm backing off a bit and cross training more so I have only been running 3 or 4 times a week. Trying not to hurt myself and it seems to help me feel better when I do run.
The_Inquisitor
Member
Hi guys. Looking for some advice. I'm currently still training with my 1'50 pace group for half marathon but I'm wanting to strongly push down ton 1'40 this year. We do two group runs a week (long run and a mixed run such as track,hills or intervals). If you follow me on strava you can kind of get a feel for my current program. I then have 3 days of essentially easy runs (Thursday run has strides) + 1 cross on Sunday Evening if I want.
My question is what if anything I can add in terms of drills or workouts to start driving my time down? My weekly mileage during the program varies between 25-35 miles and the goal race is in April. I ran a 1'48"04 in December so I have an okay base right now. Thank you.
My question is what if anything I can add in terms of drills or workouts to start driving my time down? My weekly mileage during the program varies between 25-35 miles and the goal race is in April. I ran a 1'48"04 in December so I have an okay base right now. Thank you.
littledipster
Neo Member
I'm certainly no expert on specific running drills/workouts, but I think you would benefit a lot by just upping your weekly mileage anyway you can. Don't add too much at once, but maybe incorporate some longer/comfortable pace runs or just tack on miles to your existing runs. Other than that, you seem to be doing a good mix of workouts so far! What is the longest distance you think you'll run for training before your race?
Like he said, adding easy miles usually pays off. I'd add some tempo too though if you're not doing any. Wouldn't do too much at once but maybe add a 10min tempo at the end of an easy run. JD gives a tempo pace at 7:27/mile for a 1h40 semi. I'd bring it down to 7:20 to make it even. Adjust depending on feel. You want comfortably difficult. Looking forward for it to stop, but can imagine yourself keeping it up for a while. Progressively build up to 20mins. Something like that.
Those interval times sound normal to me for your 5K time. Do you ever do form drills and hills? Not saying your form is bad, but straightening up a few loose angles (if there are any) can very directly affect speed. Do report back on speed gains from lifting. I've never found the motivation (and not sure how much I believe in it at our level), but I'm definitely interested in hearing your results!
Many on the youtubes, look up sage canaday's channel. Don't take everything he says as gospel, he's ok but he parrots out the cadence meme like a dumb jock.
Running form is hard to do but easy to conceive. Run tall, shoulders wide open, head high, look far away not the ground below your feet, hit the ground below you (not in front), make contact with mid- to front-foot, lift knees, minimize lateral movement of arms, drive your forward momentum with a slight forward lean (body straight on average, don't bend at the hip), minimize contact duration of the foot on the ground (imagine running on egg shells or hot coals). Then, you only need to do all that while keeping all muscles not directly engaged in the effort (everything that's not legs or butt) as relaxed as possible. Tall and shoulders opened, but shoulders relaxed and loose. And I would not worry about cadence one bit.
When I run (and want to keep form) I have this mental circuit in my head, I go from head to toes and start over, head high, stand tall, shoulders opened, shoulders relaxed, etc, down to front contact zone, short contacts, dynamic pushoffs. Then I cycle back to: head high, etc.
Edit: here's a video with a few good bits. Note that her arms swing too much towards the center of her body though, and I'd say her elbows are too open but that's more of a personal, what you're comfortable with kind of thing. But foot strikes are on point. Ignore the stride rate thing at the end. The 180 fits all obsession is backwards and comes from a lack of understanding of bio-mechanics.
Bonus pictures because it's either wasting time here or going to the office and doing actual work,
Good: forward lean drives momentum, body on a straight line, good pushoff off of the toes.
Terribad: arms swinging laterally, left arm about to cross sagittal plane, head tilted forward, looking down at his feet.
This is good stuff, man. Quoting so I can't find it again later.
The_Inquisitor
Member
I've started adding an additional 5 minutes to my easy runs. So looks like I was on the right track. Longest distance before a half marathon is typically 12 miles. My group will also do "simulators" where we run 8 miles at our "long" pace then do a final 3-4 miles at half marathon pace. This is my second half marathon training season in a row which helps.
Thursdays I am suppose to add in strides in the last 20 minutes of my runs. I have been doing them, but perhaps I need to actually reduce my recovery and increase the stride duration. We rotate track workouts every third week (400m repeats @ 6'45 pace, 400m,800,1200,1200,800,400 ladders, etc), hill repeats for the second week (6-8-10x depending on what week of schedule we are on) and final intervals on the third week. By the end of the schedule we actually do 2 15 minute intervals one session with a 1 mile cooldown inbetween.
So if I were to summarize the advice given here
1) increase mileage beyond what I have been given (within reason at an easy pace)
2) try to fit in more speed work than I am already doing.
Let me know if that's correct.
The_Inquisitor
Member
Zombies,Run is the only one i've used. It's pretty decent. I tend to just run Strava these days and listen to podcasts instead.
1) is right, but for 2) I didn't mean speed work, I meant tempo pace. Faster than semi pace, slightly slower than 10K pace. It's intended to build up your ability to recycle lactate acid by running continuously (but not for very long initially, starting around 10min building up to 20 or more if comfortable) just at the threshold where you produce about as much acid as you consume. Speed work intervals are typically of higher intensity than that, and shorter. JD typically insists on limiting duration of longer intervals at 6mins for example.
Red_taiyaki
Member
I still use zombies, run to pace myself when I need to do interval work outside of class but yah- usually just use Strava and Garmin Connect nowadays.
That said, went through zombies run s1-4 while training for my first half and will admit that it DID help get me out there.
The_Inquisitor
Member
Okay got it. Track workout 400m's were at a 6'45 mile equivalent pace. My strides tonight were done at ~8:30/mile pace while my base run was around a 9min mile (ran ~7 miles total including my 10 minute warmup and 5 minute cooldown).
Edit: Well this is depressing. I just noticed that my north face "better than naked" running shorts has a tear along the seam of my right compression short portion. They lasted about a year and a half. I really need to go get new shorts now because I barely had enough to cover 1 week of use.
That stride pace sounds a little off to me. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, a stride is a smooth acceleration, over 5 to 10s (typically, but changes a lot), up to almost all out sprinting but not quite (staying loose and relaxed), hold for 5 to 10 secs, then slow back down to normal pace over 5 to 10s. Not sure what your 8:30/mile pace refers to, but the middle portion should definitely be faster than 400m interval pace. If the pace you give is the average pace over the entire thing, including acceleration, deceleration and recovery, I guess it could make sense, but the one phase that matters is the fast one in the middle, which is how people usually characterize their stride pace.
The_Inquisitor
Member
Interesting. Per my training plan they define a stride as "90 seconds" + ample recovery time. Today I was holding my strides for 60 seconds because I was getting tired toward the end. But then on my running club website they then say:
So I am now confused about what the intention is. Does effort mean my goal pace for half or does effort mean 85-90% of my max heart rate?
It's 85-90% of max effort, however you want to measure it. Like I said, sprint-ish but not all out. Emphasis on staying smooth. As mentioned before, duration varies, it's something people just get a feel for and roll with what works for them. Important thing is to work up to a fast pace, maybe mile or K pace, hold it for a bit (5 to 20s), then slow down, and recover completely. It's reminding your legs how it feels to run fast without doing it for long enough that they're tired as a result.
AdventureRacing
Member
I have a few questions that may sound silly. Firstly does running on a treadmill translate well to normal running? Our summer is just too hot to go for long runs so I've been using a treadmill instead. That plus I like that you can really control your pace easily (though I know that's an important skill for running). Once it cools a bit I'll get back to running outside but when it's close to 40 degrees right now it's just to hot.
My other question is about running style. I always run on my toes (I'm a sprinter so that's what I'm used to). For long distance running is this a bad thing? The only thing I notice is that it puts a lot of work on my calves. I've never been injured but I sometimes feel right in my calves after a good run.
Otherwise I'm still working towards my goal. Want to be able to do 5K in sub 20 minutes. Not sure what my goal is after that.
My other question is about running style. I always run on my toes (I'm a sprinter so that's what I'm used to). For long distance running is this a bad thing? The only thing I notice is that it puts a lot of work on my calves. I've never been injured but I sometimes feel right in my calves after a good run.
Otherwise I'm still working towards my goal. Want to be able to do 5K in sub 20 minutes. Not sure what my goal is after that.
Duebrithil
Member
I'd say so, with a few caveats:
1) You won't encounter wind resistance. Depending on your pace it might not be significant, but I always try to keep it on a slight incline to try and simulate it (0.5-1%)
2) I find there's a "pacing effect" when running on a treadmill, and it's easier to maintain a certain pace (because otherwise you fall off). Don't really like it as it feels I'm not really running but rather being pulled forward.
3) It can be boring
4) Everything else around you being stationary probably affects the perceived effort of the run.
Having said that, between treadmill running and heatstroke I'd choose treadmill every time. Although you may want to do some runs in the heat for that sweet sweet heat acclimation training boost you'll get once it's colder.
I think landing with the mid-foot or mid-to-fore-foot is optimal to running, and some degree of calf tiredness is normal. Overall just concentrate on not overstriding and putting your feet under your pelvis and you should be fine.
That's a nice goal! As you progress towards it you'll see what you like more about running and be able to make a better informed decision, so don't sweat it (or maybe sweat a bit! hahaha
sorrynotsorry
AdventureRacing
Member
Thanks for the advice, that very much answers my questions. I'll definitely get out for a few sweaty runs, I much prefer running outside. Gotta keep working at it.
Duebrithil
Member
Strava can connect with Garmin so that activities registered by a Garmin device automatically appear on Strava, which is nice and allows runs without the bulk of a phone. Haven't used the premium version of Strava ever so I can't comment on its usefulness.
Personally I find the quality of Nike's app has gone downhill since the rebranding from Nike+ to NRC, but if it works for you then keep on truckin'.
thestopsign
Member
Damn.... my workout schedule puts me at a 13 mile run tomorrow... I'm gonna go for it, but I might need to take a walking break sometime into it or try to slow my pace down.
The_Inquisitor
Member
Is it your weekly long? I would start by slowing down w/ 1-2 water stops. Your long really shouldn't be about speed versus just getting the volume in.
TTOOLL
Member
I've been running for a while but not regularly I would say. I just came back from a 5k run and I did it in 25:37. I ran the first 1.5km in a steady pace and then I started pushing my pace for 200m and then slowing it down in the next 300m until the end.
How good is it? I have no idea, really. Could you guys help me? I felt tired of course but not exhausted, I felt like I could do more.
How good is it? I have no idea, really. Could you guys help me? I felt tired of course but not exhausted, I felt like I could do more.
Duebrithil
Member
Slower than your initial pace or just back to it? If the former that might indicate you need some more base mileage, if the latter you may need to do some speedwork. In any event I think that keeping an even pace is more efficient than going faster and slower.
Still, if you haven't run or raced regularly 25 minutes is a solid time, congrats!
Sorry for the short (and probably terrible) advice, I'm on mobile right now.
TTOOLL
Member
This last January was the month I ran the most. I did 7 5k runs and 2 10k runs. So I'm clearly not a regular.
I also do CrossFit 3 times a week so I don't have much time for running even though I love it.
I ran 10k in about 1:04:00 last month and 9k in 51:42 this month.
I don't know if it's easier now to see if my time today was OK or not. =]
And thanks for the first advice!!!