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For Honor |OT| And shame are huge parts of it

Laiza

Member
Im not sure about dodges eating stamina. With that you run the risk of the game becoming even more static in its play.

[snipped for length]
Well, I think that, if you're going to make parries cost stamina, it's only fair that the single most powerful defensive option in the game (which makes you immune to attacks AND guard breaks) cost stamina as well.

Of course, I also think they should fix that aspect of assassin dodges. The start-up should be quite vulnerable to guard breaks, but as soon as the attack starts its animation there should be no i-frames. It feels entirely too cheap to throw out a swing at the end of their dodge animation and still somehow hit air. Makes no sense from a gameplay standpoint. If they didn't try to time their dodge at all, why should they be rewarded for it?

I hadn't thought of that light attack property change. That's a pretty good one. As it is, there's no incentive to try to chain lights at all, as you're likely to just get parried on the attempt.

Really, there's a lot of small mechanical changes they can make to improve the health of the game really, really fast. I hope it doesn't take them too long to make some of the more drastic changes.
[snipped for length]

It's not just guarding that's the problem however, it's also the way the games characters are balanced. Faster characters, Peacekeepers, Orochi and Bezerkers, have attacks that inherently, carry much less risk because they are faster. While in theory every attack is likely to be dodged or guarded at a high level of play, the characters with the fastest attacks can attack with the least risk, and have the highest probability of actually landing a hit (because they are the hardest to react to).

So as time goes on, slower characters become more susceptible to this passive style of play, where their attacks are the easiest to evade, and any changes made specifically to weaken blocking weaken the larger characters (who are more reliant than blocking than evading, even further.

If as people in the post you link suggest, they chose to nerf blocking by adding stamina drain to blocked attacks, or adding significant chip damage, dodging would still be a reliable means of evading the vast majority of attacks in the game. A net buff for characters with a reliable evade (assasins) and a huge nerf for the rest of the cast.
Oh, believe me, I am 100% aware of how overpowered assassin dodging is and fully expect a huge nerf in their future.

The fact that they completely negate all options against them is anathema to the health of the game. Something that powerful just shouldn't exist. It encourages passive, reactive play far too much. Every action should be a commitment, rather than just giving you free invulnerability to everything an opponent can throw at you.

Reminds me of the dark wood grain ring shenanigans in the first Dark Souls game. Just something that should not exist, let alone be encouraged. Don't know how anyone can enjoy that style of gameplay. Doesn't feel right. Hopefully Ubisoft can recognize the problems inherent in this mechanic and are willing to do some big changes to improve the health of the game long-term. Judging from how they've handled Siege and The Division, I'm hopeful. Otherwise, the game just doesn't have a chance.
 

Skyzard

Banned
Why do you care about your ratio?

It will probably affect his matchmaking (MMR) though it should stabilize after a few games.

I love playing harder opponents a few times, worth the loss for the learning and practice. Unless I'm just getting so wrecked that I get triggered.
 

ogbg

Member
Oh, believe me, I am 100% aware of how overpowered assassin dodging is and fully expect a huge nerf in their future.

The fact that they completely negate all options against them is anathema to the health of the game. Something that powerful just shouldn't exist. It encourages passive, reactive play far too much. Every action should be a commitment, rather than just giving you free invulnerability to everything an opponent can throw at you.

Dodges are pretty well countered by feinting though. I feel like zone attacks could do with a nerf more than anything, especially PK, Warden, and Orochi. With Orochi there's basically no point in using light sides because they're so slow compared to the zone attack.
 

ogbg

Member
It will probably affect his matchmaking (MMR) though it should stabilize after a few games.

I love playing harder opponents a few times, worth the loss for the learning and practice. Unless I'm just getting so wrecked that I get triggered.

Yeah if the MMR goes down then you'll face easier opponents and it'll go back up again. With perfect MMR everyone should be at 50% w/l at equilibrium. w/l just tells you if you're on the way up or on the way down the ladder at any moment.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
The gear is fucking stupid. And then you give them power-ups?

Absolutely fucking stupid. I won't touch 4v4 going forward. Done with that trash.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Well, I think that, if you're going to make parries cost stamina, it's only fair that the single most powerful defensive option in the game (which makes you immune to attacks AND guard breaks) cost stamina as well.

What ? Guard breaks are the direct counter to dodging, they are even unbreakable if you're caught doing it.
 

Artdayne

Member
For sure.

It's also what makes the more agile characters overpowered, since at higher levels of play the moves on the slower characters are too easy to evade. If you're to have any chance of actually hitting someone it's going to be with characters whose strikes provide less time to evade. Most of the cast have no decent option to open anyone up.

Making matters worse, any debuff they add to blocking is a net buff for characters with good evasion. Orochi and Peacekeeper, who are far less reliant on blocking to begin with (happily evading and counter attacking many approaches) will view this as a net buff, as they harash their opponents block.

The suggestions made in the thread you link (chip damage on block, stamina drain on block) would cripple slower characters and allow PK, Orochi, Bezerker, Kensei, Nobushi etc. to tear them to pieces.

I think reducing the efficacy of guard and especially parry, would be a good option though. With perhaps some character specific exceptions, you shouldn't receive free damage merely for a successful defense. Parrying should reward spacing and an bigger opportunity to take 'your turn' and go on the offensive, but it shouldn't allow you to deal damage on your opponent for free.

In either case it's going to be a problem that's hard to fix without messing up the game and the evasion heavy characters.

I was playing against a good PK last night and neither of us wanted to attack, because we both knew that attacking meant the opponent would parry or evade for a counter strike. If I didn't play aggresively we would have both just sat there until the timer ran out, of course I lost for playing aggressively, in the end. The defensive advantage is too strong but it's a mistake to think it's exclusively restricted to guarding, a simple sidestep gets a guaranteed punish on the vast majority of attacks in the game. Why attack when you can wait for your opponent to open themselves up, with their own attack.

You're forced to parry assassins in order to get hits in, or have really good timing and judge distance well in order to land strikes and even then we're talking about light attacks that don't do much. I've been playing a lot of Lawbringer lately but he's just so sad in 1v1 fights. The only way to get reliable damage in is by parrying light attacks or if your opponent cannot counter guardbreak. I almost feel like the Peacekeeper's attacks shouldn't stagger, or something like that.

The gear is fucking stupid. And then you give them power-ups?

Absolutely fucking stupid. I won't touch 4v4 going forward. Done with that trash.

I think Dominion is a good mode at its core but yeah I agree that gear, specifically revenge gear is way too overpowered right now. I was playing against a renown 5 Kensei and three of us were trying to kill him for like 2-3 minutes and it took so long before we could do it because revenge would activate after like 3 hits and then he'd go super saiyan mode and hit everyone for huge damage. Faced a Renown 5 Berserker who would hit for 115 damage with a top heavy, which is about 80% of the health of most characters. It's absolutely broken and very hard to deal with on lower level characters.
 

arimanius

Member
Might be a bit too early pre-patch, but I'm sure some folk have a general idea. Also Valk's buffs/changes will make her a nasty threat (not that she is shit)

Makes sense. I didn't play the beta so wasn't sure what changed and if there was a tier list already.

orochi, berseker, pk
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warden
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everything else

In my personal experience I'd add Shugoki up top as well.
 

Moyospeed

Neo Member
Playing dominion solo in this game can be one of the most infuriating experiences in a game.
But I haven't actually played with a fiend online in years and my brother bought this game and we actually communicated and ended up winning almost every game we played. At this point it's almost a must for me to play with someone lol. It's a much better experience this way.
 

Artdayne

Member
Warden far above everything else. He is the most likely to be touched by the nerf bat.

The rest.

He's definitely top tier, once PK's bleed damage bug is fixed she will be top tier, I'm honestly not sure that Warlord isn't the strongest character in the game. People have done very well with him in some of the earlier tournaments so far. Shugoki may also be top tier, but I think some of that is due to cheese.
 

ViviOggi

Member
Warden is undeniably #1 and there's no way Orochi's up there. In high level play the class sorely lacks viable options to get in
 

Hyun Sai

Member
He's definitely top tier, once PK's bleed damage bug is fixed she will be top tier, I'm honestly not sure that Warlord isn't the strongest character in the game. People have done very well with him in some of the earlier tournaments so far. Shugoki may also be top tier, but I think some of that is due to cheese.

Yeah, Warlord is indeed very high on the list. Do we have some stats on the class repartition of the latest tournaments?
 

Steez

Member
Everybody and their mother are complaining about assassin dodges, people teching guard breaks or parrying and thus leaving you with "no options" in multiplayer, but did actually any of you fight somebody who could pull off every counter move 100% of the time?

Those complains are really only applicable on such an immensely high skill level that I'm left asking myself if only the top elite posts ITT.

I'm maining a Lawbringer halfway through prestige 2 (aka the most useless class that can only shove and throw) and I'm coming out on top in a lot of matches, even against bad matchups ilke the PK or Orochi. You just need to mix your shit up and play mindgames with your opponent. Nobody can pull of every counter every single time; it's impossible.
I think the classes in general are pretty well balanced and the only glaring issue that's not a glitch is the Shoguki's hyper armor, which should be restricted to during attack only and not while standing still.

People need to learn how to play the classes that give them the most trouble instead of complaining out of ignorance.
 

Marvel

could never
Warden far above everything else. He is the most likely to be touched by the nerf bat.
hqewCjD.jpg
 

wamberz1

Member
Yeah warden is gonna hit hit by the nerf hammer hard. Probably. If i had to guess what they would change they might slow down his overhead light and area attack.

As a warlord main its difficult to say but I don't feel he has any real huge weakness. As long as you can manage stamina you can deal with anything. Actually now that I think of it he doesn't really have any super fast attacks like warden does.

Valk needs buffs but we already know shes getting some.

Raider probably needs buffs too.
 
The gear is fucking stupid. And then you give them power-ups?

Absolutely fucking stupid. I won't touch 4v4 going forward. Done with that trash.

Yeah it's a shame, elimination should be power up less and not use gear at all

Domination and skirmish should be the two casual modes that use all that junk

Grouping the modes up in that way would make me happier
 

Deps

Member
Warlord and Warden seem top
Peacekeeper, Nobushi, Orochi, and Shugoki are good
Kensei, Conq, and Valkyrie are flawed but viable
Lawbringer, Berserker, and Raider need buffs

Just imo
 

Dubz

Member
Dodges are pretty well countered by feinting though. I feel like zone attacks could do with a nerf more than anything, especially PK, Warden, and Orochi. With Orochi there's basically no point in using light sides because they're so slow compared to the zone attack.
Please forgive me for asking, but what is a zone attack?
 

wamberz1

Member
Please forgive me for asking, but what is a zone attack?

R1+R2 at the same time. Usually an attack with a huge range, but costs a lot of stamina. Meant for dealing with trash mobs but can also be used in pvp.
Some have more advantages than others. Wardens for example comes out lightning fast and is basically impossible to react to.
 

ViviOggi

Member
Please forgive me for asking, but what is a zone attack?

The AoE move you get when you press both attack buttons at once. Some classes' zone attacks are stupidly fast, first and foremost the Warden's (i.e. one of the few moves in the game that a really good player might be unable to react to)
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Yeah warden is gonna hit hit by the nerf hammer hard. Probably. If i had to guess what they would change they might slow down his overhead light and area attack.

Or remove the possiblity of cancelling shoulder bash, that is the broken thing ATM.

I don't know if they'll touch the area attack as you can have a free guard break on simple block, so it's a risk for the Warden player.
 

markwaters

Neo Member
Everybody and their mother are complaining about assassin dodges, people teching guard breaks or parrying and thus leaving you with "no options" in multiplayer, but did actually any of you fight somebody who could pull off every counter move 100% of the time?

Those complains are really only applicable on such an immensely high skill level that I'm left asking myself if only the top elite posts ITT.

I'm maining a Lawbringer halfway through prestige 2 (aka the most useless class that can only shove and throw) and I'm coming out on top in a lot of matches, even against bad matchups ilke the PK or Orochi. You just need to mix your shit up and play mindgames with your opponent. Nobody can pull of every counter every single time; it's impossible.
I think the classes in general are pretty well balanced and the only glaring issue that's not a glitch is the Shoguki's hyper armor, which should be restricted to during attack only and not while standing still.

People need to learn how to play the classes that give them the most trouble instead of complaining out of ignorance.

I agree to an extent and I think people just need to adjust and learn their character's options, but some classes (Warden, Warlord, PK, Nobushi and I guess Orochi) just have superior options and tools overall and that makes "weaker" classes (Raider, Berserker, Lawbringer) less fun to play in duel/brawl. I understand that frustration and I want to see those "weaker" classes get some interesting, strong tools rather than see the current classes excelling at duels get straight up nerfs. Adjustments? Sure, but nerfs aren't the answer. Balancing up and not down or just shaking up the systems in general is the answer.

Of all the "strong" classes, I think players severely overrate how good they are with regard to the balance of their kits/tools/damage/mixup/etc. Much of what Warden does is punishable and escapable for example. You can react to most PK and Orochi mixups after you've seen them often enough. Where it sucks for "weaker"classes is playing against these "strong" classes and having inferior options even though you are making the correct reads feels laborious.

For example, it's just straight up harder for Lawbringer to kill a Warden even though he's blocking and punishing zone attack and guessing right after shoulder bash and so on. I like where most of the "strong" classes are (except maybe Warlord but I honestly might just be bad at that matchup and need to explore it more), and I'd like to see the weaker ones get better options. They don't have to all get the same options; the variety is good. But they should get their own things that are sorta-hard to deal with. How Ubi goes about that, though, I'm not quite sure.
 

Shinjica

Member
Yeah it's a shame, elimination should be power up less and not use gear at all

Domination and skirmish should be the two casual modes that use all that junk

Grouping the modes up in that way would make me happier

There are microtransaction in this game, what doyou expect?
 
Alright guys, I did some fucking about in some duels to show a few things from my berserker guide as promised. This is mostly a test video, but the Orochi I was fighting was just good enough to punish some bad moves, and fell for some better ones, so it's a perfect clip to use.


Here's the video.


Here's what to take away from this:


-I could have ledged him off the bat, chose not to. Was trying to be EDUCATIONAL.

-Notice how well the Spin Chop punishes overheads.

-A right heavy feint into left light is very useful, and has surprisingly subtle animations on berserker. You'll see it here, too.

-You can use your environment to avoid lunges like Storm Rush and such!

-I finish the fight by intentionally whiffing a Spin Chop; remember, since you can chain out of it, you can bait enemies into a hit that will catch them before they catch you. It takes practice, but it's worth it!

I won't pretend I fell for the parries on purpose, a bit sloppy, but I'm mostly testing my video uploading process.
 

Kyoufu

Member
These Steel prices for unlockables are too expensive. I'm never going to get 45000 for the outfits. Why did I pay $60 for an F2P game?
 

deoee

Member
The matchmaking in this game :)

Also I can't decide if I want to get one class to Rep 3 first or just mix it up all the time. They are all so fun to play :D
 

Arttemis

Member
The matchmaking in this game :)

Also I can't decide if I want to get one class to Rep 3 first or just mix it up all the time. They are all so fun to play :D

Are you able to actually play?

I have open NAT and was screwed over with disconnects so badly a few days ago that I felt like Ubisoft stole most of an hour of my time. I've since stuck with co-op story mode. That works well with only occasional disconnects when going from one mission to the next.

If the online game is actually working now, I'd love to go back.
 

Laiza

Member
Dodges are pretty well countered by feinting though. I feel like zone attacks could do with a nerf more than anything, especially PK, Warden, and Orochi. With Orochi there's basically no point in using light sides because they're so slow compared to the zone attack.
If anything, I'd rather every class have at least one attack of equivalent speed to those classes' fastest attacks. Force folks to stay on their toes, and give another option to work around excessive turtling.

Light sides being useless in comparison is another issue that needs addressing in a different direction, like making them unparryable as mentioned above. As it is, they indeed just serve no real purpose.

I'm not sure how feinting is supposed to help against assassin dodges when they're invulnerable to everything during the dodge. Cheese them with parries while they're still OP, I guess? Heh.

What ? Guard breaks are the direct counter to dodging, they are even unbreakable if you're caught doing it.
Assassins are invincible to guard breaks while performing a dodge attack.

Everybody and their mother are complaining about assassin dodges, people teching guard breaks or parrying and thus leaving you with "no options" in multiplayer, but did actually any of you fight somebody who could pull off every counter move 100% of the time?

Those complains are really only applicable on such an immensely high skill level that I'm left asking myself if only the top elite posts ITT.
You don't need perfect play to start seeing the issues start cropping up in practice. And you can't assume that folks will stay around a mid-tier level of skill forever.

The problems we're talking about here are fundamental to the game mechanics, and WILL result in incredibly stale gameplay at a higher level. It's an inevitability. I think it's worth addressing these things before they become a really big problem.
 

deoee

Member
Are you able to actually play?

I have open NAT and was screwed over with disconnects so badly a few days ago that I felt like Ubisoft stole most of an hour of my time. I've since stuck with co-op story mode. That works well with only occasional disconnects when going from one mission to the next.

If the online game is actually working now, I'd love to go back.

Today it works.

I dunno with this game it works some days and some days you cant get into a match for hours.
 

KaYotiX

Banned
I think I should do that tbh, it's interfering on how well I play. I'm legit afraid to use enviroment as my advantage since I rather not get flamed for it. And I never know who is okay with stuff like that and do it themselves. So I usually just avoid dropping people from ledges or pushing them in fire. But I also use the chat to communicate with friends in my group, should check if there's an option to just disable the all chat.

Use it all, don't feel ashamed to use the environment. The other guy just needs to play better. That's how I look at it.
 

It's really bad. Even the title doesn't make sense, it's a quantitative assessment. It's a quantitative analysis of player perceptions from reddit. It's not meaningful analysis because its not based on anything but the users own perceptions and fails to sepererate meaningfully by skill or other attributes affecting the players experience.

Garbage in, garbage out, no matter how much effort you put into the analysis. It merely represents the perceptions of the reddit community. This means absolutely nothing. Players have voted based on their own personal estimations, yet they all have different backgrounds and biases. They play different modes, characters, have different skill levels etc.

The author even tried to analyse differences that might be dissociable by skill level, however this uses self perceptions of the users own skill level. This is an utterly useless metric. Not many users will be honest about their skill level on a survey, even if they intended to be there's no way for them to reliably estimate. I suspect almost all respondants were average or above, confounding any possibility to meaningfully seperate the impressions of the more skilled, from the less skilled.
 

markwaters

Neo Member
I'm not sure how feinting is supposed to help against assassin dodges when they're invulnerable to everything during the dodge. Cheese them with parries while they're still OP, I guess? Heh.


Assassins are invincible to guard breaks while performing a dodge attack.

Orochi gets parried during Zephyr slash pretty much effortlessly. PK's dodge attacks are a bit quicker but can be blocked at the very least, and if you feel cheeky, you can attempt the parry. It's not difficult once you get the hang of it. It's an important feature of their class that has advantages and drawbacks. It can be defended against and it can be baited. They can also just bait you into parry attempts/over committing. That's the game in a nutshell: mind games off of class-specific options that require a proper reaction.

The problem isn't that dodging is strong IMO, it's that some classes (LB, Raider come to mind) don't get very good punishes for reading the situation correctly unless they're close to walls or the assassin runs out of stamina.
 

markwaters

Neo Member
PSA: If warden shoulder bashes, dodge backward and roll out of the mixup. Every single character in the game is able to do this. It's strong, but you don't have to deal with it at all unless you run out of stamina or get backed into a wall or corner. It is not as good as you think.
 

Marvel

could never
If you don't throw someone off a ledge or into spikes/fire you bet your ass they will or are fishing for it.

GLHF lol
 
I'm curious if there are any top fighting game players on the books. There needs to be imo. I seriously doubt ubi can balance the game well enough for high-level 1v1.
 

ogbg

Member
any word if they are going to let us rebind controller buttons on PC?

I don't know. Do you know how to do it out of the game? I use DS4Windows which has button remapping and I think Steam does too. Of course it means that you end up with weird menu controls but you get used to it after a while. Or at least I do since I need to remap for almost every game I play.
 

markwaters

Neo Member
I'm curious if there are any top fighting game players on the books. There needs to be imo. I seriously doubt ubi can balance the game well enough for high-level 1v1.

I know LIJoe is advocating for the game pretty heavily. Alex Valle has also been talking about playing it.
 
Everybody and their mother are complaining about assassin dodges, people teching guard breaks or parrying and thus leaving you with "no options" in multiplayer, but did actually any of you fight somebody who could pull off every counter move 100% of the time?

I'm not even that great and I've managed duels where I've countered 100% of attacks.

Orochi main here.
 
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