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Twilight Princess is definitively better than Wind Waker

S

Shotgun Kiss

Member
They're polar opposites.

Wind Waker's dungeons are OK. There aren't many, and the ones that are there are decent, but nothing special. Everything outside the dungeons is great though.

Twilight Princess has my favourite dungeons in the series, but nearly everything outside of them is really poor.
 
M

MiamiWesker

Member
Tidalwave said:
Playing through the game at the moment and roll my eyes every time one of these "interesting things" happen. I just want to get back to the regular game.
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That's the game, what do you mean regular game? Zelda is about constant gameplay variety. About never knowing what thing you will do next. TP is near unparraled when it comes to this.
 
Deputy Moonman

Deputy Moonman

Member
Stoze said:
That guy isn't even from Windwaker.

I'd argue Twilight Princess doesn't even have the best dungeons in the 3D games (MM imo), much less the 2D ones. I also don't think they are "far better" than Wind Waker's, and that's kind of a problem I have with all the 3D games as a whole: outside of a few instances, the dungeons are typically so streamlined and simple that none of them really stick out to me or provide a ton of enjoyment. I can tell WW's are more linear and easier, but I can't say I wasn't really having any less or more fun with them, for better or worse. That's why seeing Mark Brown's Boss Keys videos were really enlightening to me, because it always feels like I'm just blasting through them and going through the motions so it's hard to take a critical eye to them.

As far as the overworld goes, Wind Waker is the only 3D game where I felt like I was actually exploring, even if some of that feeling is emulated. I also thought combat and control are both better than TP. Then there's the art direction, atmosphere, characters, etc.. I like Zelda games because they are greater than the sum of their parts, and that's ultimately where WW surpasses the other games for me. Obviously I didn't get too analytical here, but personally and judging from other posts in this thread it's pretty clear that no, TP is not definitely better.

Also if it wasn't obvious enough from that last paragraph, I haven't played BotW yet.
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Nickle said:
Uhhhhh, that's definitely not what the Bokoblins in Wind Waker look like...
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whoops. sorry i have skyward sword on my mind from the other thread lol.

Also i respect your opinion, Stoze. For me though, I did not like the exploring in WW. I hated being stuck on a boat for overly long periods of time. Now at a point that does goes away with the ballad of gales. But personally i'd rather be riding around hyrule on a horse.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
Agreed OP. Wind Waker is my least favorite 3D Zelda (well, not counting the even worse DS sequels or whatever you want to call them). I didn't care for the art style, disliked sailing and the setting and the dungeons were lame by series standards and the dungeons are my favorite part of Zelda games. I still enjoyed it, but it's like an 8/10 where as OoT, MM, TP etc. are 9.5 type games for me.

Similalrly I'm a bit underwhelmed by BOTW as I'm not as enthralled by exploring big overworlds as many and wish it had true dungeons (I'm through 2 divine beasts and 25ish Shrines).
 
L

lord_of_flood

Member
TP > WW, but not by a whole lot.

Twilight Princess mainly excels in its puzzle design and that's what elevates it over Wind Waker for me, because WW's puzzles and dungeons aren't super great. However, like the Boss Keys video mentions, the actual dungeon layout is only barely better than WW's. TP's bosses reach higher highs (Stallord, Argorok, Zant) but lower lows (Morpheel) than WW's, whose bosses are mostly average at best. While Hyrule Field is much more interesting to run through than the sea in WW, it does feel pretty empty. Also, TP doesn't have anything equivalent to the Triforce quest in WW, so that's good.

WW has a lot more personality than TP, but ultimately the personality doesn't make up for its gameplay flaws.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
I have a hard time deciding between the two, but I think I have to lean toward Wind Waker. The type of Zelda I like is more open, and Wind Waker is one of the closer ones (other than Zelda 1 and BotW) to that. I didn't mind the sailing as much as most did, and it was always fun to discover new islands. The HD version made it even better with the Swift Sail.

That said, I think BotW is the best game in the series.
 
D

DLaicH

Member
I love both for different reasons. I love the open air exploration and sense of adventure that WW offers, which for me was unmatched in the series until BotW. Yes, most of the overworld is ocean, but the ocean has a dynamic character of its own, being host to various weather patterns, monsters, and treasures. Yes, it's sparse by modern open world standards, but it was still cool to see a strange island on the horizon and sail to it not knowing what you would find. It also had a great set of items that felt just as useful in the overworld as they were in dungeons, especially the korok leaf for traversal and the boomerang for combat.

TP was less fun to just roam around in, but it was well designed and well paced (if a little slow at the beginning) as a tighter, somewhat more linear experience. The tight, focused approach was especially good in the dungeon design, each of which had well crafted puzzles revolving around particular items. Indeed, the marriage between dungeon design and item acquisition was almost two strong, as many items didn't prove that useful in ordinary combat or traversal, but it did result in excellent puzzle design. I also did enjoy seeing a Zelda that blended a darker tone with the quirky personality traits you expect from a Zelda game. Also, bomb arrows were such a good invention.

In the end, I do enjoy WW more, but they're both top 5 material to me.
 
D

dlauv

Member
MiamiWesker said:
I do not understand how fans of zelda could be turned off to the whole series because of TP. TP is Zeldas greatest hits, it has elements of all of them. Just shows how this series means different things to different people. TP to me a near perfect zelda game, not my favorite but a 10 for sure.
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It's patronizing, too easy, and full of filler. It wasn't the worst game I've ever played, but I did realize playing the series held no value for me anymore.

By patronizing, I mean the constant wrestling of the camera away from the player, the worst tutorial I've played through (Skyward Sword is worse I hear, in that it never ends), and making sure the camera highlights puzzle objectives.
 
V

Version 3.0

Member
Klotera said:
When people say that Wind Waker was so different and Twilight Princess is derivative, I sometimes wonder if the art style makes people think it's more different from the others than it really is. The only thing that sets it apart is the sailing, and that's the most tedious part of the game. The style of play on land and the way in which you progress are still very much like the OoT and TP.
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When Wind Waker released, there was plenty of talk about how similar it was to Ocarina of Time, including a lot of criticism for it. It was only after Twilight Princess that it was retconned as this very different experience. Which it isn't. In the end, all the 3D Zeldas from OoT to SS - even Majora's Mask - are more similar than not (though MM is certainly the least similar).

Even more annoying is this new talk about Breath of the Wild being born from Wind Waker, or whatever. That's doing a huge disservice to BotW, if you ask me. The team deserves more credit than that; they really questioned every facet of the game. Sure, it has similarities to Wind Waker. It's still a Zelda game, and it has similarities to lots of Zelda games. The bugs and horse combat, among other things, you could point at Twilight Princess and say, "see, these came from this game". But they weren't "re-making" or "expanding" Twilight Princess, any more than they were Wind Waker. Or even Zelda 1, which is far more valid as a source of inspiration than any other game.
 
S

Stoze

Member
DLaicH said:
I love both for different reasons. I love the open air exploration and sense of adventure that WW offers, which for me was unmatched in the series until BotW. Yes, most of the overworld is ocean, but the ocean has a dynamic character of its own, being host to various weather patterns, monsters, and treasures. Yes, it's sparse by modern open world standards, but it was still cool to see a strange island on the horizon and sail to it not knowing what you would find. It also had a great set of items that felt just as useful in the overworld as they were in dungeons, especially the korok leaf for traversal and the boomerang for combat.

TP was less fun to just roam around in, but it was well designed and well paced (if a little slow at the beginning) as a tighter, somewhat more linear experience. The tight, focused approach was especially good in the dungeon design, each of which had well crafted puzzles revolving around particular items. Indeed, the marriage between dungeon design and item acquisition was almost two strong, as many items didn't prove that useful in ordinary combat or traversal, but it did result in excellent puzzle design. I also did enjoy seeing a Zelda that blended a darker tone with the quirky personality traits you expect from a Zelda game. Also, bomb arrows were such a good invention.

In the end, I do enjoy WW more, but they're both top 5 material to me.
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I like this comparison and it summarizes a lot about how I think about the two games. Also:
but it was still cool to see a strange island on the horizon and sail to it not knowing what you would find
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is ultimately what puts WW on top for me alongside the art style and personality. I just never got that feeling in Hyrule's flat and barren grasslands.
 
D

DylanEno

Member
MiamiWesker said:
While exploration is WWs strong suit I don't get the TP world bashing. The world was used in so many events and moments. The entire carriage chase through hyrule field which was amazing. Jousting on the gigantic bridge was iconic. Riding a flying dragon down the river. Going through a huge desert while riding massive boars and taking in an entire Moblin encampment. Snowboarding down a snow capped mountain. Being able to go under the sea like a Zora and explore lake hylia. getting into an old west like shootout in an abandoned town.

There is so much more variety and memorable moments in TP than WW. Honestly WW open world suffers from the same issue BOTW open world does where things start to get cut and paste and you see the same structures and islands over and over again. Every single location in TP is unique.
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Wait what

When did this happen
 
D

Dope Skill

Member
I agree. It's my second favorite Zelda after BotW. Not to say WW is a bad game, but that fetch quest at the end was worse than TP's slow start, imo. TP was also basically OoT 2, and up until TP that had been my favorite game of all time.
 
O

Omega Kirby

Member
TP had snowboarding, so it's automatically better. It was so good they had to put it in BOTW

maxresdefault.jpg
 
M

meerak

Member
I found it largely boring when I played it on GameCube at time of release.

It's true that some of the dungeons are really excellent, but I remember it being the first Zelda game I ever questioned why I was playing and whether or not I should continue. Iirc the back half of the game is stronger, and I was ultimately happy to finish it.

I think just being in Wind Waker's world is enjoyable. Its dungeons are lesser than TPs, but as a whole it is far more remarkable to me.

I haven't replayed it ever (maybe the only Zelda to have that honor) so who knows, maybe I'll get back to it one day and enjoy it more a second time over.
 
T

Tavernacle12

Member
The only things Twilight Princess does better are more dungeons and no mandatory stealth dungeons. Wind Waker is superior with everything else.
 
D

Dorsal Axe

Member
Shotgun Kiss said:
Wind Waker's dungeons are OK. There aren't many, and the ones that are there are decent, but nothing special. Everything outside the dungeons is great though.
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There are seven dungeons in the game. That's on par with SS, and more than MM, TMC, PH, ST and BotW.

I'm not going to disagree on their quality, but there is certainly enough quantity (though that cut Greatfish dungeon wouldn't have gone amiss).

Mind you Twilight Princess has two trash-tier dungeons in the Palace of Twilight and Hyrule Castle. Really ruins the finale of that game.
 
S

SkywardBeam

Member
What's that talk about TP being unrivaled in gameplay variety within the Zelda series? o_O I can't even...
In MM you basically have four completely different play styles depending on the mask you are wearing (+ standard Link, not counting the options the non-transforming masks are opening up). You can glide through the sky and hop over the water as Deku, swim gracefully and walk underwater as Zora and unleash raw power and roll around high speed as Goron (+ everything you could do as normal Link). And all those different abilities are used in many creative ways throughout the course of the game. In TP you basically do what you do in every Zelda game + the shoehorned in wolf form that mostly just substitutes the Lens of truth from the N64 games. All the other mentioned activities like flying down the river with the giant bird creature, the Yeti snowboarding game or the horseback fights are barely more than glorified mini-games that last about 2-3 minutes each - over the course of a 50 hours+ game. Not to mention that the game doesn't even use the basic tools like bow & arrows or the shield in the same creative ways all three previous 3D entries did. No clever light reflection or elemental puzzles, just the most basic "pull lever/ hit lever with arrow/sword > proceed to next room" standard Zelda fare. It had the bomb arrows, at least, but sadly no creative puzzles were really designed around it (yes, you had to shoot down stalactites in the Lakebed shrine with them, but you also did this in OoT's ice cave with standard arrows).
Don't want to hate on the game cause I actually quite like it and have completed it several times but from a gameplay perspective, for me it felt more like a regression compared to previous entries. They played it extremely save with this one, which resulted in overly dull and basic gameplay.
 
L

Look! The Pie!

Member
playXray said:
I haven't played any Zelda games between Ocarina (amazing, obv.) and BotW (even more amazing!), so I have missed out on a lot of Zelda. However, TP always looked pretty cool from the screenshots etc, as well as having a 96 on Metacritic. What was so wrong with it that gets is slammed on GAF so frequently?
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No idea. I personally feel it does everything Ocarina did, but better.
 
H

hampig

Member
Who needs that old Zelda jazz my mans, new wild Zelda is here! Climb the walls! Use your magnets! Sail on a boat!

I think WW is the best looking and most boring Zelda game by far. TP isn't great, but it's way better than WW.
 
E

En-ou

Member
Regiruler said:
Holy friggen sweet jesus I'm nearly done with Snowpeak and this game has been consistently better than Wind Waker in almost every way. I can understand people not liking Skyward Sword for whatever technical reason, but Twilight Princess is simply better in the same mold that Wind Waker uses.

-Better dungeons
-Better bosses
-More rewarding exploration
-INFINITELY better items

I've dropped wind waker multiple times but Twilight Princess still has me hooked. What do people see in WW?
Click to expand...

-Better dungeons
-Better bosses
-More rewarding exploration
-INFINITELY better items
-dragon roost music
 
G

Gnomist

Member
I agree OP. There was a time where my opinion was the opposite but about 5 years ago I sat down and played them back to back, starting with Wind Waker. Seeing the differences between them while they were completely fresh in my mind really changed how I thought about both of them.

Wind Waker will always be one of the most timeless titles in terms of art style, and that goes a long way to making it endearing. But when it came down to the details of the overworld and dungeon design and items it just didn't hold up to how I remembered feeling about it. I feel like Wind Waker hit more low points more frequently than Twilight Princess. Both games have big issues in my opinion, but when I think about the overall experience and satisfaction from the entire game I greatly prefer the dungeons and world design of TP compared to WW.

I understand why some people prefer one over the other though, and that's fine. I think having stark differences between entries in a series is what helps keep it interesting over the years. It's like seasons of a TV show in that I might like season 1, not be so hot about season 2, but then completely get obsessed with season 3. I can enjoy the unique aspects of each entry even if the game doesn't rank in my top half of the series.
 
H

Hilarion

Member
I'd agree with OP, but that's mainly because all I care about in Zelda games is the dungeons (which is one of the reasons I really have not been impressed with Breath of the Wild).

I still think that Link Between Worlds is pretty much the perfect Zelda game and I think it's easily 10 times more enjoyable than Breath of the Wild has been so far. I never get out of the overworld in Breath of the Wild! I want to go explore a real serious dungeon, but they don't exist, just these tiny shrines. Twilight Princess gave me far more of what I wanted in a game than Breath of the Wild has.
 
S

Son.Ralph.Funk

Member
I got 3-4 hours into Twilight Princess (maybe 5 hours, it was a long time ago, I can't remember exactly) before I got bored and gave up. I didn't find it fun, nor did I find the visuals attractive. In fact, I found them downright ugly.

Maybe if I went back and gave it another chance things would be different?
 
P

Professor Beef

Banned
The only thing I liked about twilight princess was the look on Link's face when the sages told him he had to go collect more shit.

"The fuck do I look like"
 
F

fargofallout

Member
I haven't played either one all the way through since they were released. I have fonder memories of Wind Waker, but it might be solely because of the art, which I adored at the time.
 
W

WonkyPanda

Member
I don't know if it was my mood (rushing to beat before BOTW) or the HD Port, but I had way less of a fun time with TP than I did WW.

Epona is terrible to control. Wolf link is boring/not fun. The twilight music is awful. Twilight enemy design is generally terrible.
 
W

White Wolf

Member
i thought we concluded that 10 years ago...

wind waker had absolutely nothing going on for it, except for the lovely art direction, memorable characters and cute sense of humour. dungeons were crap, like you already said. the great sea (great soundtrack btw) was a borefest (not that tp hyrule field was much better, but still), sailing in gamecube ww was fucking terrible, and you name it.

twilight princess on the other hand, despite almost not having any own identity, despite leaning too much on the sheer perfectness that is ocarina of time, the dungeons are among the best of the series, the story (as far as it can go with nintendo) was great, items and gear were great, combat was simple but solid, etc
 
S

secretanchitman

Member
Shotgun Kiss said:
They're polar opposites.

Wind Waker's dungeons are OK. There aren't many, and the ones that are there are decent, but nothing special. Everything outside the dungeons is great though.

Twilight Princess has my favourite dungeons in the series, but nearly everything outside of them is really poor.
Click to expand...

Yep this is correct. I thought I preferred TP for the longest time but after playing both the HD remasters, I prefer WW outside of its dungeons (which are short and pale in comparison to TP's dungeons).
 
neoism

neoism

Member
Nah Okami was the better game that year ....

WW is better than TP. and way better than skyward sword...
 
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