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[SarusGray]

You're misunderstanding. In modern times, trans people are commonly and incorrectly believed, by various groups *coughcoughrepublicanscoughcough* as not being genuine in their gender identity and are simply perverts using it was a cover to worm their way into situations where they can sexually assault cisgendered women. You've got the whole bathroom bill kerfluffle, as a very strong example of this phenomenon.

The argument here is that the questline in Zelda subtly, and likely unintentionally, perpetuates this idea that the only reason someone born male would dress up as a woman would be to weasel their way into a women's only environment.

Exactly. There is so much reaching going on for this article in regards to Zelda.

Read this

You're misunderstanding. In modern times, trans people are commonly and incorrectly believed, by various groups *coughcoughrepublicanscoughcough* as not being genuine in their gender identity and are simply perverts using it was a cover to worm their way into situations where they can sexually assault cisgendered women. You've got the whole bathroom bill kerfluffle, as a very strong example of this phenomenon.

The argument here is that the questline in Zelda subtly, and likely unintentionally, perpetuates this idea that the only reason someone born male would dress up as a woman would be to weasel their way into a women's only environment.

Also https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/us/transgender-bathroom-law.html

It may not be intended at all but the writer does make a point how it COULD be offensive.

 

[Mister Wolf]

I considered the boss who sold Link the clothes a hetero male disguising himself to get into town exactly how link had to disguise himself.

 

[ZServ]

And that everything/nothing thing is total bullshit. It's a copout for people who don't actually want to deal with criticism. You're free to make whatever joke you want and everyone else is free to criticize it for whatever reason they want. I don't understand the obsession some people on this forum have for limiting what types of criticism are acceptable.

That's an asinine rule considering that most everyone already has certain lines they don't like to see crossed.

Everyone has lines they don't like to see crossed, but those lines are different for everyone. It isn't about limiting what types of criticism are acceptable, it's about understanding that criticism is valid/invalid only based on the person giving the criticism. I don't mean that you can make a joke and be free from criticism, because that isn't the case. You are free to say whatever you want, but you aren't free from the social repercussions that arise from you saying that.

The everything/nothing rule is far from asinine. It's freedom of speech. Without it, we wouldn't have had a lot of George Carlin's work, or South Park, for that matter. Nor Bo Burnham, or really anything that has ever offended anyone. And as for people trying to "limit what types of criticism are acceptable," I have no intentions of that. However, it seems like a lot of people are ready to jump to the idea of a person being at fault for not immediately sharing their views, and that's fucking silly.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Writer struggles to identify transgender characters and themes in video games. Makes some up and writes article anyway.

Um, a lot of people viewed the sequence in BotW as tying very tightly into trans issues, and I don't know that ME:A or Horizon are really disputed examples.

The company that shuts down all discussion of a female link actually said that? Somehow I doubt it.

I misremembered; it was in the Tri-Force Heroes interview, where the director said that he's not the most masculine guy, so you could project onto the character, but the implication is fairly clear.

Everyone has lines they don't like to see crossed, but those lines are different for everyone. It isn't about limiting what types of criticism are acceptable, it's about understanding that criticism is valid/invalid only based on the person giving the criticism. I don't mean that you can make a joke and be free from criticism, because that isn't the case. You are free to say whatever you want, but you aren't free from the social repercussions that arise from you saying that.

The everything/nothing rule is far from asinine. It's freedom of speech. Without it, we wouldn't have had a lot of George Carlin's work, or South Park, for that matter. Nor Bo Burnham, or really anything that has ever offended anyone. And as for people trying to "limit what types of criticism are acceptable," I have no intentions of that. However, it seems like a lot of people are ready to jump to the idea of a person being at fault for not immediately sharing their views, and that's fucking silly.

No people in this thread have proposed a government interference to limit Nintendo's right to make an offensive joke, so no, it's not freedom of speech, nor is it an attack on that. The everything or nothing rule is a rule that only works in theory, not in a situation where trans people are both the subjects of jokes disproportionately and also the subject of violence and harassment disproportionately.

 

[TankRizzo]

Kind frustrating reading the thread and seeing people lecture a trans woman on trans issues.



Nintendo has already said in the past that Link is ambiguous enough to be interpreted as a woman. Therefore, trans Link is canon.

you're gonna have to show us some receipts, chief.

 

[Kalentan]

The portrayal in Hoirzon seems fine. In the fiction of the game, the trans person had to prove themselves a man to fit in as a soldier, yes, and that is discriminatory. However, I feel that mirrors the real world well in the issues trans people have to face to gain acceptance. There isn't anything wrong with that portrayal, it's a fictional commentary on society.

I do not always want an idealized representation of trans people in game society, I tend to want a realistic or interesting one. I feel like the chracter in Horizon does that well.

EDIT: I have not played that bit of Horizon, so I cannot comment on how it was handled, just commenting on the circumstances and overall fiction.

The issue is that in Carja society, women are looked down upon more often than not. There are no Sun Priestesses, only Sun Priests and if you suggest to one of them the idea of a Sun Queen, they scoff it off as an impossibility as only men can be the King.

So I think with Janeva she wanted to be a soldier, but in her society, women are not accepted as soldiers (you also never see any other female Carja soldirs other than Janeva), and so she adopted a mantle of being a 'soldier' rather than being a 'women' in hopes of being accepted by her peers.

Now I don't pretend to be some expert in the topic of transexuality but to me it seems more like a Mulan (i.e. a women who wants to fight but can't in a patriarchal society and must become a 'man' to fight) situation rather than Janeva feeling deep down that she is a man.

 

[bryanee]

Is there a link for this? This does not sound like Nintendo at all to say this.

I watched an Aonuma interview the other day where he clearly states that Link is male but they do make him androgynous. Never seen or read anything beyond that.

 

[213372bu]

Um, a lot of people viewed the sequence in BotW as tying very tightly into trans issues, and I don't know that ME:A or Horizon are really disputed examples.
I misremembered; it was in the Tri-Force Heroes interview, where the director said that he's not the most masculine guy, so you could project onto the character, but the implication is fairly clear.
No people in this thread have proposed a government interference to limit Nintendo's right to make an offensive joke, so no, it's not freedom of speech, nor is it an attack on that. The everything or nothing rule is a rule that only works in theory, not in a situation where trans people are both the subjects of jokes disproportionately and also the subject of violence and harassment disproportionately.

Kind frustrating reading the thread and seeing people lecture a trans woman on trans issues.
Nintendo has already said in the past that Link is ambiguous enough to be interpreted as a woman. Therefore, trans Link is canon.

The NPCs in BotW use male pronouns when referencing Link all the way up to the endgame, I don't understand why it's "canon" that Link is a woman or non-binary gender.

I don't understand why you would then talk about potential issues as it only pertains to your headcanon.

It's more than reaching.

 

[A Link to the Past]

you're gonna have to show us some receipts, chief.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06...ant-play-as-a-woman-in-zelda-tri-force-heroes

There you go.

That said, this is all moot anyway, since Link is a girl, not a guy.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1073120

 

[Mesoian]

I remember something like that being said since there are number of female outfits link can wear in that TriForce Heroes game.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Because...?

Because if you've played the game it isn't a trans character nor an attempt at being one. It's literally a dude dressing and pretending to be a woman to sneak into a city that bars men. This is what happens when people try to read deeper into something than was intended by the creators.

It's not even intended to be mocking of trans. For decades the Gerudo society has only been women and in OOT you were literally jailed for being a man who snuck in and had to fight your way out. This just took the game's existing equipment system and made a playful quest about it.

I can understand how a trans person might think this belittles the actual reality of the situation, but the game certainly isn't attempting to.

 

[The_Kid]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06...ant-play-as-a-woman-in-zelda-tri-force-heroes

There you go.

That said, this is all moot anyway, since Link is a girl, not a guy.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1073120

I mean, not to belittle headcanon, but in Breath of the Wild specifically hasn't it been said time and time again "no, Link is male". An argument for Triforce Heroes is kind of meaningless.

 

[RagnarokX]

That still doesn't make it a particularly good joke though, especially when the punchline is a wink and a nod that there's still a dick there, which is out of sorts when you just got a pretty decent explanation of why this guy is doing what he's doing, and how it has very little to dow ith commerce with Gerudo.

It's a throw away gag that punches down rather than up for little reason other than it was easy to do.

Well, is that the intended interpretation? Link learns that there is a man who infiltrated Gerudo Town, tracks down this person, buys the outfit from them, and crossdresses, and then the wind incident happens. Is Link reacting that way because after all that he didn't realize the man was crossdressing and ashamed of him or is he reacting because of how flimsy the disguise is and to the situation he's gotten himself into. And even if Link is reacting because he didn't realize the crossdresser was male, he's not necessarily casting judgement on that character but just surprised by the fact. And then he shakes his head because the disguise can be blown by an errant breeze.

Also, I'm convinced it's not a beard but a tan line.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The NPCs in BotW use male pronouns when referencing Link all the way up to the endgame, I don't understand why it's "canon" that Link is a woman or non-binary gender.

I don't understand why you would then talk about potential issues as it only pertains to your headcanon.

It's more than reaching.

A lot of people use male pronouns to refer to a trans person in real life too. Heck, there's even a Gerudo who knows about Link who corrects herself when she says voe!

I mean, not to belittle headcanon, but in Breath of the Wild specifically hasn't it been said time and time again "no, Link is male". An argument for Triforce Heroes is kind of meaningless.

If Link is resurrected, and all Links gotta be male, doesn't that mean that all Links can be trans if these Links can be?

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

They are grasping for straws for that Zelda moment. The issue of gender identity has not presented itself in any way, shape or form in the game. It's not a game about Link.

A lot of people use male pronouns to refer to a trans person in real life too. Heck, there's even a Gerudo who knows about Link who corrects herself when she says voe!

Yes, but only because she knew Link was using the ruse to get into the village, not because she became aware that she inappropriately used the wrong pronoun.

 

[SarusGray]

Because if you've played the game it isn't a trans character nor an attempt at being one. It's literally a dude dressing and pretending to be a woman to sneak into a city that bars men. This is what happens when people try to read deeper into something than was intended by the creators

It's really a joke that needs to end, especially since Transgender people can't even use the bathroom associated with the gender they identify with, and if they do, they are perverts or creeps or invading personal areas when all they want to do is use the damn bathroom.

 

[The_Kid]

If Link is resurrected, and all Links gotta be male, doesn't that mean that all Links can be trans if these Links can be?

There is an argument to be made but using an old interview from a different game and a hypothetical timeline is reaching.

 

[TheSun]

Lovely article by Laura.

Hope this thread stays civil.

 

[213372bu]

A lot of people use male pronouns to refer to a trans person in real life too. Heck, there's even a Gerudo who knows about Link who corrects herself when she says voe!

More than just pronouns, Paya etc. call him a man in their diaries.

 

[A Link to the Past]

They are grasping for straws for that Zelda moment. The issue of gender identity has not presented itself in any way, shape or form in the game. It's not a game about Link.



Yes, but only because she knew Link was using the ruse to get into the village, not because she became aware that she inappropriately used the wrong pronoun.

Is this your interpretation, or is this canon?

There is an argument to be made but using an old interview from a different game and some and a hypothetical timeline is reaching.

The timeline isn't hypothetical though, it's pretty clearly a thing. For me, that is canon until undone.

More than just pronouns, Paya etc. call him a man in their diaries.

And trans people are misgendered in real life too

 

[EGM1966]

The issue is that in Carja society, women are looked down upon more often than not. There are no Sun Priestesses, only Sun Priests and if you suggest to one of them the idea of a Sun Queen, they scoff it off as an impossibility as only men can be the King.

So I think with Janeva she wanted to be a soldier, but in her society, women are not accepted as soldiers (you also never see any other female Carja soldirs other than Janeva), and so she adopted a mantle of being a 'soldier' rather than being a 'women' in hopes of being accepted by her peers.

Now I don't pretend to be some expert in the topic of transexuality but to me it seems more like a Mulan (i.e. a women who wants to fight but can't in a patriarchal society and must become a 'man' to fight) situation rather than Janeva feeling deep down that she is a man.

As per my earlier post that's how I saw it. Rewatching it I feel it's more likely the character is feminist and simply wants equal access to certain roles than identifies as male.

So she essentially fought to be a soldier rather than a woman.

It is s but ambiguous but is certainly doesn't seem to me she's a clear cut trans gender.

I mean Horizon has a lot of diversity so maybe that was their trans gender character but thematically with rest of the game I feel it's more likely she was a feminist instead.

That said with Horizon having a reset of society there clearly is room to have some interesting trans gender characters and in the evidence of ZD I reckon GG could do it decent justice. Never thought I'd say that about the developer of Killzone!

 

[The Wart]

The everything/nothing rule is far from asinine. It's freedom of speech.

No, it's not. "Acceptable" and "legal" are completely separate concepts. No one is advocating making trans jokes illegal. To say that the Polygon article comes anywhere near that is an absurd strawman. Many people would, however, like to nudge social norms such that they are generally frowned upon.

When someone says "I have criticisms of Zelda's handling of queer issues", a response of "It is not illegal!" is not useful for anything other than deflecting. It's just avoiding the content of the criticism.

 

[Kalentan]

It's really a joke that needs to end, especially since Transgender people can't even use the bathroom associated with the gender they identify with, and if they do, they are perverts or creeps or invading personal areas when all they want to do is use the damn bathroom.

Is the idea of a man having to masquerade as a women to sneak into city that bars men, inherently a joke? Cause to me that really depends if the story treats it as a joke.

 

[TankRizzo]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06...ant-play-as-a-woman-in-zelda-tri-force-heroes

There you go.

That said, this is all moot anyway, since Link is a girl, not a guy.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1073120

No, link is male.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No, link is a male.

Didn't you read the second link? She's pretty clearly female.

 

[SarusGray]

Is the idea of a man having to masquerade as a women to sneak into city that bars men, inherently a joke? Cause to me that really depends if the story treats it as a joke.

Whatever it is, it needs to stop.

 

[MTC100]

I don't really care about transgender people, they also don't care about me, it's a win/win situation really. If this tg-stuff happens in games I don't care either, I think people blow this up to proportions for clicks. It's funny that you can let Link wear Gerudo clothes and also interesting to see the NPCs react to him wearing them. Link is a completely blank slate, he can be whatever or whoever you like.

 

[Akuosa]

I'm pretty sure that all three games even struggle with straight characters.

I don't know, the one gay character I remember from Horizon was done pretty nicely, I thought.
Still haven't seen Janeva, I'll have to pay special attention to the dialogue I guess.

 

[The_Kid]

Is this your interpretation, or is this canon?



The timeline isn't hypothetical though, it's pretty clearly a thing. For me, that is canon until undone.

Again, the canon in Zelda is so very loosely put together, but sure, lets say it is. It isn't even in the same side of the timeline.

Furthermore, right above in that interview you linked, Link is clearly said to be male in gender, just not the most masculine. So I really don't know what you're getting at.

 

[pashmilla]

I don't really care about transgender people, they also don't care about me, it's a win/win situation really. If this tg-stuff happens in games I don't really care either, it's funny that you can let Link wear Gerudo clothes and also interesting to see the NPCs react to him wearing them. Link is a completely blank slate, he can be whatever you like.

...................ok.....................

 

[SarusGray]

I don't really care about transgender people, they also don't care about me, it's a win/win situation really. If this tg-stuff happens in games I don't really care either, it's funny that you can let Link wear Gerudo clothes and also interesting to see the NPCs react to him wearing them. Link is a completely blank slate, he can be whatever you like.

I'm glad you cared enough to post in this thread about how much you don't care about transgender people. Riveting quality post. I just want better representation of transgender people, but it seems we are still struggling unfortunately with even female characters as well as LGB characters.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Again, the canon in Zelda is so very loosely put together, but sure, lets say it is. It isn't even in the same side of the timeline.

Furthermore, right above in that interview you linked, Link is clearly said to be male in gender, just not the most masculine. So I really don't know what you're getting at.

Not only that but that quote sounds like he was being really lighthearted/joking about it instead of openly adding something to the whole series lore. This is the definition of headcanon.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Again, the canon in Zelda is so very loosely put together, but sure, lets say it is. It isn't even in the same side of the timeline.

Furthermore, right above in that interview you linked, Link is clearly said to be male in gender, just not the most masculine. So I really don't know what you're getting at.

We also have to remember that most people do not understand the difference between male and female. For example, Birdetta is referred to as a man in the SMB2 manual, but that's not at all accurate to how gender works. It inclines me to assume that the director mixed up sex and gender, a very common thing in Japan due to how underground LGBT issues are.

Also Samus is a trans woman

 

[Kalentan]

Whatever it is, it needs to stop.

I will disagree with that cause that does to me, scream "slippery slope".

It's an idea that isn't automatically something to make fun of trans people.

It can be used like that but that isn't exclusive to that idea. If you start to ban any idea because it could be used in one way, then that's bad too.

At the same time I think it would be wise to educate why if used in a specific way that it could be harmful.

 

[KahooTs]

I highly doubt trans people making up trans characters, as the article does in it's first sentence, is going to help anything.

Besides getting them clicks I suppose.

 

[ZServ]

No people in this thread have proposed a government interference to limit Nintendo's right to make an offensive joke, so no, it's not freedom of speech, nor is it an attack on that. The everything or nothing rule is a rule that only works in theory, not in a situation where trans people are both the subjects of jokes disproportionately and also the subject of violence and harassment disproportionately.

Nintendo didn't make an inherently offensive joke. If you took offense from it, then you inferred something besides the intended outcome from it. The everything or nothing rule works in application, as well. What offends you may not offend me, what offends me may not offend you. That's okay, we're different people.

There is no "right" or "wrong" answer as to if western views are superior than eastern views. This isn't a black and white thing, this is, just like sexuality, a scale. And just like everyone else, that scale is different for each of us.

It truly sucks that trans people are the subject of jokes disproportionately, and also harassed more. But we don't get back to proportion by saying "this subject can no longer be joked about." We naturally arrive there over time.

Last time I'm posting in this thread, but remember that the game was made in a different country, with different cultures, and different mindsets. LGBT really isn't a thing over there-- at least not to the degree that it is here. The goal of the joke was "this is a manly man dressed up as a woman, haha, how funny." It was not meant at all to provoke people that feel like they were born in the wrong body. To purposely imply that is to be as ignorant as you're claiming they are. The character in question doesn't feel like he belongs in the wrong body, he's just a creep. That. Is. The. Joke.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Also Samus is a trans woman

Ok

 

[Chessr]

Why is this a problem?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Ok

https://www.themarysue.com/metroids-samus-aran-transgender-woman/

 

[pashmilla]

Why is this a problem?

...why is poor representation a problem?

 

[SarusGray]

I will disagree with that cause that does to me, scream "slippery slope".

It's an idea that isn't automatically something to make fun of trans people.

It can be used like that but that isn't exclusive to that idea. If you start to ban any idea because it could be used in one way, then that's bad too.

At the same time I think it would be wise to educate why if used in a specific way that it could be harmful.

I didn't say ban any idea. This one in particular though isn't very funny in my opinion and is overused in films, videogames, shows etc. Just be a little more creative or at least thoughtful if you're going to go into that route. There are many ideas that have stopped because they have become distasteful, that'll hopefully happen in time for this particular joke.

 

[The_Kid]

We also have to remember that most people do not understand the difference between male and female. For example, Birdetta is referred to as a man in the SMB2 manual, but that's not at all accurate to how gender works. It inclines me to assume that the director mixed up sex and gender, a very common thing in Japan due to how underground LGBT issues are.

Also Samus is a trans woman

Okay you're definitely inferring a lot more than evidence points to.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Nintendo didn't make an inherently offensive joke. If you took offense from it, then you inferred something besides the intended outcome from it. The everything or nothing rule works in application, as well. What offends you may not offend me, what offends me may not offend you. That's okay, we're different people.

There is no "right" or "wrong" answer as to if western views are superior than eastern views. This isn't a black and white thing, this is, just like sexuality, a scale. And just like everyone else, that scale is different for each of us.

It truly sucks that trans people are the subject of jokes disproportionately, and also harassed more. But we don't get back to proportion by saying "this subject can no longer be joked about." We naturally arrive there over time.

Last time I'm posting in this thread, but remember that the game was made in a different country, with different cultures, and different mindsets. LGBT really isn't a thing over there-- at least not to the degree that it is here. The goal of the joke was "this is a manly man dressed up as a woman, haha, how funny." It was not meant at all to provoke people that feel like they were born in the wrong body. To purposely imply that is to be as ignorant as you're claiming they are. The character in question doesn't feel like he belongs in the wrong body, he's just a creep. That. Is. The. Joke.

It's a Japanese game released to a worldwide audience. Don't localize it if you don't want to be criticized for ajoke that doesn't translate.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I highly doubt trans people making up trans characters, as the article does in it's first sentence, is going to help anything.

Besides getting them clicks I suppose.

they're not really making up trans characters, at all.

they are presenting their interpretation of these characters, and there is a good case around Horizon (I don't know enough about the Zelda example as I'm trying to avoid spoilers on that one).

also there is straight up a trans character in mass effect.

 

[13ruce]

Lol @ the Zelda and Horizon Dawn one.

 

[(mat)]

...................ok.....................

To be fair, I don't care about transgender people either. I don't particularly care for straight people, or black people, or any people. To me, it's strange to take a whole group of people and go, "I'm with this person because they're a certain thing!".

I do however, like individual people who happen to fall into some those groups. I'm sure I also dislike a few people who fall into those groups. People are people. Sometimes I like one, sometimes I dislike another.

That's not to say I don't have a general "care" for people has a whole. Obviously if someone had a gun pointed at that dick Mark from Accounting, I'd worry for Mark's safety. When I say I "don't care", I mean I'm not interested in being your friend or hearing about your cats.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Lol @ the Zelda and Horizon Dawn one.

The horizon interpretation is perfectly valid.

 

[SarusGray]

The horizon interpretation is perfectly valid.

both are. at least imo the writer isn't being aggressive at all. The writer is actually providing suggestions and thoughts calmly and kindly. No need to be offended peeps even if its your favorite game. It's a good discussion.

 

[cryptosporidium]

I think both articles about BotW cross-dressing are overreaching regarding the context.

As I see it, Gerudo City is pretty much a carbon copy of Timbuktu in west Africa during the 1900th century. Timbuktu was a forbidden city for Europeans (for political reasons), until René Caillés was able to get in the city in 1828, disguised as an arab.

that historical reference tho. gg

 

[A Link to the Past]

To be fair, I don't care about transgender people either. I don't particularly care for straight people, or black people, or any people. To me, it's strange to take a whole group of people and go, "I'm with this person because they're a certain thing!".

I do however, like individual people who happen to fall into some those groups. I'm sure I also dislike a few people who fall into those groups. People are people. Sometimes I like one, sometimes I dislike another.

That's not to say I don't have a general "care" for people has a whole. Obviously if someone had a gun pointed at that dick Mark from Accounting, I'd worry for Mark's safety. When I say I "don't care", I mean I'm not interested in being your friend or hearing about your cats.

People don't stand by certain groups because they are that group, they stand by them because there are other, bigger groups that are trying to damage that group.