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[Darksol]

But Cloud displayed visible dismay over that situation, and was obviously made uncomfortable by the fact that he was to act like a woman. In BotW, Link acts femininely when complimented on his femininity while wearing the clothing.

So Link is more committed to not being found-out than Cloud was. Occam's razor. I think people are trying to find meaning where there is none, at least in that example.

 

[SarusGray]

I mean, it's not like any of the sidequest characters really reveal anything about themselves in the game anyway. Of course, I just watched LOTR again and I just look at that character as part of the same trope that Eowyn represents, so maybe that example is just on my mind.

I mean I actually thought Janeva was just a tomboy at first and I'm gay but I can see Janeva being transgender also.

 

[psychowave]

acts femininely

What is this sexist garbage lmao

 

[UnemployedVillain]

It's an RPG, no? There's literally nothing stopping you from getting the Gerudo clothing and playing the rest of the game with it on. As such, you could argue that the Link in that playthrough enjoyed being a woman more than being a man, and therefore became aware of their trans nature throughout the playthrough. It's the type of story the player has to make up as they play the game, but it isn't "reaching" to suggest that some people will see Link in that way.

If it requires you to come up with a contrived explanation, it's reaching. Obviously people identifying Link as a trans doesn't affect me in anyway, so my reaction is like when A Link to the Past said Samus was trans, "Ok", but it's still reaching. It's still projecting onto the character something they clearly aren't.

Link is just an accepting dude. He doesn't care and doesn't judge lol. That's how I took it.

But Cloud displayed visible dismay over that situation, and was obviously made uncomfortable by the fact that he was to act like a woman. In BotW, Link acts femininely when complimented on his femininity while wearing the clothing.

What does "acting femininely" entail exactly?

 

[A Link to the Past]

So Link is more committed to not being found-out than Cloud was. Occam's razor. I think people are trying to find meaning where there is none, at least in that example.

Occam's razor doesn't apply because yours adds an extra layer.

"Link is a trans woman"
"Link is crossdressing, and also is behaving in a way to hide his gender"

 

[thumb]

Nothing in the canon that contradicts it, so I get to call her trans

Spoiler

Plus the fact is that the original comment was super offensive as it used a slur, so really I'm just making lemonade by taking ownership of the character for all trans people o/

If Samus turns out to be transgender, that would be genuinely amazing. It would also drive gamergaters utterly bonkers, which would be fantastic.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What is this sexist garbage lmao

What are you talking about? Link behaves in a fashion when complimented for their appearance that is explicitly and stereotypically feminine, and she only acts this way when in Gerudo garb. I'd call your post some serious mansplaining, but I don't wanna presume gender lol

If it requires you to come up with a contrived explanation, it's reaching. Obviously people identifying Link as a trans doesn't affect me in anyway, so my reaction is like when A Link to the Past said Samus was trans, "Ok", but it's still reaching. It's still projecting onto the character something they clearly aren't.

Link is just an accepting dude. He doesn't care and doesn't judge lol. That's how I took it.

But the Samus thing isn't contrived, word of god says she's trans.

If Samus turns out to be transgender, that would be genuinely amazing. It would also drive gamergaters utterly bonkers, which would be fantastic.

That's certainly an extra fun little bonus lol

 

[TenCentCoast]

Maybe if cis people gave a shit we wouldn't have to "make up" trans characters. People of privilege will never understand the importance of fanfic and headcanon in minority communities, because media is written around you. You have never had to imagine "what if there was a cool cis character?"

 

[HK-47]

If Samus turns out to be transgender, that would be genuinely amazing. It would also drive gamergaters utterly bonkers, which would be fantastic.

Why would transgender people settle for a character from a dead series?

>_>

 

[A Link to the Past]

Maybe if cis people gave a shit we wouldn't have to "make up" trans characters. People of privilege will never understand the importance of fanfic and headcanon in minority communities, because media is written around you. You have never had to imagine "what if there was a cool cis character?"

I think it's also important to note that there's a lot of umbrage over interpretations of characters when it comes to sexuality and gender that doesn't exist in other areas. People can have their own interpretation of characters' motives or personalities or whatever, but gender/sexuality? That's strictly off limits, to the extent that it affects people if you go there.

Why would transgender people settle for a character from a dead series?

>_>

...

;(

 

[UnemployedVillain]

What are you talking about? Link behaves in a fashion when complimented for their appearance that is explicitly and stereotypically feminine, and she only acts this way when in Gerudo garb. I'd call your post some serious mansplaining, but I don't wanna presume gender lol

Not true. Link flexes when shirtless too.

But the Samus thing isn't contrived, word of god says she's trans.

One creator said one thing, and another one said another

 

[pashmilla]

Maybe if cis people gave a shit we wouldn't have to "make up" trans characters. People of privilege will never understand the importance of fanfic and headcanon in minority communities, because media is written around you. You have never had to imagine "what if there was a cool cis character?"

god dimes why do you gotta make us cis folks feel so unwelcome????????

Spoiler

<3

Also I don't understand this notion that headcanoning a character as LGBT, autistic, disabled, etc., is somehow super bad and offensive. Like... let people have their headcanons. Be cool.

 

[Wulfram]

DA4 will probably take place in Tevinter... Krem is from Tevinter... please god Bioware Krem as party member and love interest

Krem can die, which may limit his ability to play a big role in the future. Though the death is more or less off-screen, so I suppose they could decide that he was actually captured by the venatori or something - it would be less of a stretch than Leliana's resurrection, though it'd feel a bit cheap given the impact his death has in DAI.

There's a trans character, Maevaris, who is a Tevinter magister who seems to be set up to be a big deal in future games since she's leading a group that's seeking to reform Tevinter

 

[SarusGray]

Maybe if cis people gave a shit we wouldn't have to "make up" trans characters. People of privilege will never understand the importance of fanfic and headcanon in minority communities, because media is written around you. You have never had to imagine "what if there was a cool cis character?"

for reals.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Not true. Link flexes when shirtless too.


One creator said one thing, and another one said another

What creator contradicted the first comment on Samus?

 

[psychowave]

What are you talking about? Link behaves in a fashion when complimented for their appearance that is explicitly and stereotypically feminine, and she only acts this way when in Gerudo garb. I'd call your post some serious mansplaining, but I don't wanna presume gender lol

I'm a woman and you're being incredibly misogynistic. Link's attitude doesn't become "feminine" when he wears women's clothes. Even if you want to claim that his attitude is "feminine" that doesn't make him a woman (gender non-conforming men exist). What the hell, I thought we were past attributing certain behaviors to certain genders at least in liberal and leftist circles but apparently not.

 

[HK-47]

I think it's also important to note that there's a lot of umbrage over interpretations of characters when it comes to sexuality and gender that doesn't exist in other areas. People can have their own interpretation of characters' motives or personalities or whatever, but gender/sexuality? That's strictly off limits, to the extent that it affects people if you go there.

...

;(

...

Like I said, a dead series.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm a woman and you're being incredibly misogynistic. Link's attitude doesn't become "feminine" when he wears women's clothes. Even if you want to claim that his attitude is "feminine" that doesn't make him a woman (gender non-conforming men exist). What the hell, I thought we were past attributing certain behaviors to certain genders at least in liberal and leftist circles but apparently not.

Incredibly misogynistic would be if I attributed behaviors to gender for real people - AKA, that man is carrying a purse, therefore he is feminine. It is not applicable in a situation where we are criticizing characters that are largely written by men, in Japan of all places where gender is treated in a traditional fashion. This goes back to the deadnaming issue in the other thread - I would not criticize an actual human for deadnaming themselves (I might think it odd or unwise), but I would do so for a character. You're using the GamerGate argument that conflates a fictional character to real life (specifically where someone attacked Anita Sarkeesian because she criticized the propensity of pink in character designs for women, but herself wears pink).

 

[UnemployedVillain]

What creator contradicted the first comment on Samus?

In the same link you posted

Looking to negate Matsuoka's remark, some gamers have pointed to a FAQ on the Japanese Zero Mission site by Yoshio Sakamoto, co-director of Metroid. There he says Samus being a newhalf is not impossible, but unlikely.

She basically jumped on the fact one guy used a term to describe her typically associated with trans people and hand waved another saying "Yeah...not really"

Incredibly misogynistic would be if I attributed behaviors to gender for real people - AKA, that man is carrying a purse, therefore he is feminine. It is not applicable in a situation where we are criticizing characters that are largely written by men, in Japan of all places where gender is treated in a traditional fashion. This goes back to the deadnaming issue in the other thread - I would not criticize an actual human for deadnaming themselves (I might think it odd or unwise), but I would do so for a character. You're using the GamerGate argument that conflates a fictional character to real life (specifically where someone attacked Anita Sarkeesian because she criticized the propensity of pink in character designs for women, but herself wears pink).

This explanation makes little sense, and kinda strikes me as sort of racist. "Japanese men in particular have backwards/regressive views on LGBT characters and gender roles so I'm going to assume the worst with what they're doing."

 

[The_Kid]

god dimes why do you gotta make us cis folks feel so unwelcome????????

Spoiler

<3

Also I don't understand this notion that headcanoning a character as LGBT, autistic, disabled, etc., is somehow super bad and offensive. Like... let people have their headcanons. Be cool.

Headcannoning is super awesome and welcome and yadda yadda. I've done it for gay characters many times.

But taking that headcanon and then pointing out flaws in the series from that specific interpretation doesn't make any sense.

 

[A Link to the Past]

In the same link you posted


She basically jumped on the fact one guy used a term to describe her typically associated with trans people and hand waved another saying "Yeah...not really"

First person said "Yes"

Second person said "eh, probably not"

Averages out to >50%

 

[KahooTs]

Maybe if cis people gave a shit we wouldn't have to "make up" trans characters. People of privilege will never understand the importance of fanfic and headcanon in minority communities, because media is written around you. You have never had to imagine "what if there was a cool cis character?"

Ok then, I'll be less critical of poor comprehension and writing where it relates to transgender in future. Bar successfully lowered.

 

[thumb]

Why would transgender people settle for a character from a dead series?

>_>

Why you gotta hurt me with that reminder?

Just...look at my avatar. Many of the Metroid games are among my fondest video game memories.

 

[psychowave]

Incredibly misogynistic would be if I attributed behaviors to gender for real people - AKA, that man is carrying a purse, therefore he is feminine. It is not applicable in a situation where we are criticizing characters that are largely written by men, in Japan of all places where gender is treated in a traditional fashion. This goes back to the deadnaming issue in the other thread - I would not criticize an actual human for deadnaming themselves (I might think it odd or unwise), but I would do so for a character. You're using the GamerGate argument that conflates a fictional character to real life (specifically where someone attacked Anita Sarkeesian because she criticized the propensity of pink in character designs for women, but herself wears pink).

You just said absolutely fucking nothing. Please explain what you mean about "acting femininely". Bonus points if you manage to do it without sounding like a 50 year old conservative guy who thinks women belong in the kitchen.

 

[Lionel Richie]

The difference between the Zelda and Horizon interpretation from that of the Mass Effect one is that they're just that, interpretations. Its hard to say they're inferring one thing when there are multiple other equally logical interpetations. Its fine to interpret it that way but its hard to call it a problematic trans description when it might not even be trying to have trans themes in the first place.

Thank you! It's not wrong to interpret any work of art as you wish, but a journalistic analysis over any subject should be done over actual content. Out of the 3 examples, 2 are headcanon. I mean they could be true (although the Zelda example is an egregious stretch), but this piece would have been way better substantiated and consequentially would be much more valid analytically if the author had asked the developers or people involved in those projects to properly gauge their intent with these characters.

 

[firehawk12]

I mean I actually thought Janeva was just a tomboy at first and I'm gay but I can see Janeva being transgender also.

Yeah, I guess you can read the character that way. It really just didn't occur to me.

I mean there's a queer character in the game as well, but you have to squint to read the character that way since it's all subtext. It'd be interesting to think about a society where sexuality may or may not be a problem, but I don't think the devs were interested in touching those issues at all.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Ok then, I'll be less critical of poor comprehension and writing where it relates to transgender in future. Bar successfully lowered.

Wow, you're doing a great service, thanks.

 

[213372bu]

You just said absolutely fucking nothing. Please explain what you mean about "acting femininely". Bonus points if you manage to do it without sounding like a 50 year old conservative guy who thinks women belong in the kitchen.

LttP is a contrarian troll that's contradicted themselves on plenty of issues in the past, the best you can do is challenge them for the mental gymnastics display and move on.

 

[Verder]

Link isn't a person coming out as a "trans" just because he slips into the Gerudo clothing . Sometimes I think all these articles are just clickbait and just always want to paint it related with anything what's currently going on in today's social events

 

[Ascenion]

I'm still in the camp that Zelda is the farthest of reaches. It looked like the quest went out of its way to show that Vilia was simply a man dressed as a woman to access gerudo town. It was a very out of touch joke and that's all it looks like. But more power to anyone who wants to play this Link as such. You can make an argument for it, I just don't find it stands up against the other evidence.

Horizon honestly made me think of Crem in Inquisition and how tactfully I thought that was handled, except Horizon didn't do quite as well but I still think it wasn't that bad. Sadly this leads to a BioWare fuck up which given how well they handled it in Inquisition makes no sense at all. Haven't come across Hainly yet in Andromeda but now I'm curious to see just how bad they screwed up.

 

[Dictator93]

I am happy that the article was written and that games are starting to approach these type of characters, but at the same time I am left wanting with the article. I think it would have been better in a slightly longer form, with a more systematised way of identifying such characters being elaborated along with a more systemastised description of how any deep reading here / hermenetuics was done in the games. Otherwise, the criticism of "this is all just headcannon" is hard to defend against.

Nonetheless, I enjoyed reading it and it was good to read a trans perspective on this.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You just said absolutely fucking nothing. Please explain what you mean about "acting femininely". Bonus points if you manage to do it without sounding like a 50 year old conservative guy who thinks women belong in the kitchen.

...I just did. I am discussing stereotypical behavior of femininity and masculinity and what it indicates, especially in societies where feminine and masculine behaviors indicate gender. Going further than that, it is common (but not universal) for trans people to adopt more feminine or masculine qualities (depending on their gender) in order to be more at-touch with their gender, which would apply in Link's case were she transgender. I hope this explanation is better for you.

(PS: It's also misogynistic to ignore just how misogynistic 50-year-old conservative women can be, so do yourself a favor and make sure you're not actively being misogynist while you scream about how misogynist everyone else is k thx lmao)

 

[Garrett Hawke]

You just said absolutely fucking nothing. Please explain what you mean about "acting femininely". Bonus points if you manage to do it without sounding like a 50 year old conservative guy who thinks women belong in the kitchen.

This is ridiculous and you're being intetionally disingenous, if we could never describe media tropes of stereotypically feminine/masculine behaviours as such we wouldn't be able to deconstruct them.

 

[Cyanity]

Gonna do a new playthrough of BotW with Link exclusively as a Gerudo female just to spite the haters

 

[Platy]

Laura is way more optimistic about Zelda than me ... I only see as Trans erasure at best, Gerudos are TERFs at worst.
Also other NPC (near the shrine at the city's entrance) TOTALY SAYS that a MALE dude managed to enter the city. Also the "gay male" sound bytes on the character.
And the Spa scene I only took as every other merchant who does not give a shit about link being male as long as he pays for the stuff =P

For headcanons, my favorite one is that Princess Peach is a Toad who took human female hormones because she is trans, that is why she is the only woman looking toad in the mushroom kingdom

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Gonna do a new playthrough of BotW with Link exclusively as a Gerudo female just to spite the haters

I doubt anyone will really care

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

The thing with Link was comic relief at best. If you think Nintendo was trying to say something about links gender identity when hes basically a self insert character without a voice or much of a personality, then you're out of your mind.

 

[SarusGray]

You just said absolutely fucking nothing. Please explain what you mean about "acting femininely". Bonus points if you manage to do it without sounding like a 50 year old conservative guy who thinks women belong in the kitchen.

Really? I thought they actually made a good point at some parts. Those snarky comments at the end are totally unwarranted though..

We can talk about femininity and masculinity without being sexist. It's very possible.

 

[psychowave]

...I just did. I am discussing stereotypical behavior of femininity and masculinity and what it indicates, especially in societies where feminine and masculine behaviors indicate gender. Going further than that, it is common (but not universal) for trans people to adopt more feminine or masculine qualities (depending on their gender) in order to be more at-touch with their gender, which would apply in Link's case were she transgender. I hope this explanation is better for you.

(PS: It's also misogynistic to ignore just how misogynistic 50-year-old conservative women can be, so do yourself a favor and make sure you're not actively being misogynist while you scream about how misogynist everyone else is k thx lmao)

You're still not pointing out any examples of "feminine" behavior on Link. Didn't think it'd be this hard.

 

[tci]

To me both Horizon and Zelda is reaching. Or at least interpreted from their own perspective. Which is fine, but it is really not an issue as they make it out to be.

Let's get a few things out the way. Yes, this woman has a beard under her veil. Link finding this out when a stray gust of wind reveals is played as a punchline. Link reacts in shock. It reeks of &#8216;90s trans-reveal comedy punchlines.

No, this clearly is a man. As the other NPC's have told you too. The character doesn't claim otherwise either.

The term transgender is never used, but it's implied that Janeva was designated female at birth before choosing to live as a man and pursue a male profession.

It is never used, because she is not necessary a transgender. Women forcing them-self into men dominant professions by cross-dressing etc is nothing new. It does not mean they identify as the other sex. So no, it is not implied. Rather it is interpreted that way by the author.

I can understand some parts of the article. But I also think it is easy to find issues where there really is none, coming from a group of individuals with a mindset. I would like to see any group well represented in video games. The author have all right to critique and make a discussion about it, but I would prefer it to be more established in the games that is pointed out. Maybe one day we actually can have that discussion about a game with a transgender representation.

 

[MaKTaiL]

Horizon must have had the best representation because it was so natural to the story and so normal that I didn't notice at all.

 

[Heshinsi]

the weird thing is in Nora culture, women hold dominance.

Yeah, but how well would a Carja know about Nora customs and traditions, seeing as to how the Nora are secluded and kill anyone who comes onto their lands on sight?

 

[Dark Ninja]

I'm still in the camp that Zelda is the farthest of reaches. It looked like the quest went out of its way to show that Vilia was simply a man dressed as a woman to access gerudo town. It was a very out of touch joke and that's all it looks like. But more power to anyone who wants to play this Link as such. You can make an argument for it, I just don't find it stands up against the other evidence.

Horizon honestly made me think of Crem in Inquisition and how tactfully I thought that was handled, except Horizon didn't do quite as well but I still think it wasn't that bad. Sadly this leads to a BioWare fuck up which given how well they handled it in Inquisition makes no sense at all. Haven't come across Hainly yet in Andromeda but now I'm curious to see just how bad they screwed up.

I agree and it comes off as someone who hasn't really played the game, explored the town or done any of the sidequests in Gerudo.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You're still not pointing out any examples of "feminine" behavior on Link. Didn't think it'd be this hard.

My bad, I guess you not playing Zelda is my fault. Link displays stereotypically feminine behavior when she first gets the Gerudo vai outfit, and is being complimented.

(I also like that you're not even acknowledging your horrific misogyny, tsk tsk)

No, this clearly is a man. As the other NPC's have told you too. The character doesn't claim otherwise either.

Actually, the person in the Gerudo garb, when you call her a man, denies it.

 

[psychowave]

My bad, I guess you not playing Zelda is my fault. Link displays stereotypically feminine behavior when she first gets the Gerudo vai outfit, and is being complimented.

I have played BoTW. I see nothing "feminine" in Link's behavior. He just looks shy. Even if you want to act like his behavior is feminine, gender non-conforming men exist.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

You're still not pointing out any examples of "feminine" behavior on Link. Didn't think it'd be this hard.

you are kidding yourself if you genuinely don't think link's coy embarrassment where he holds his hand together, looks to the side and blinks bashfully isn't the tropiest of anime girl stereotypes.

I have played BoTW. I see nothing "feminine" in Link's behavior. He just looks shy. Even if you want to act like his behavior is feminine, gender non-conforming men exist.

yes, they do, but interestingly LttP is discussing stereotypical depictions of gender in media.

 

[KingV]

The thing with Link was comic relief at best. If you think Nintendo was trying to say something about links gender identity when hes basically a self insert character without a voice or much of a personality, then you're out of your mind.

Nintendo is like the least likely company ever to make a hard stand on something like this.

It's intended to play at a pg-like humor of a dad dressing up in his wife's dress. Just like everything Nintendo makes. I don't think there is enough characterization there to read anything else into it definitively.

It's open enough to make your own headcanon and fill in the blanks, but it's fairly well-documented that Nintendo is the least edgy company around and will go out of its way to to be as vanilla as possible.

 

[balohna]

She's saying Link could figure out he's actually a woman after wearing women's clothes, like that's all it takes. She's the one reducing womanhood to a clothing choice.

I think she's saying Link could, in theory, in head canon, have already been trans without realizing it until he's forced to pretend to be female and realizes he feels more natural that way.

Also, Laura is trans.

 

[AlexFlame116]

...

;(

Careful Link...you're bringing back some dark feelings that I've been trying to forget...

Also I don't understand this notion that headcanoning a character as LGBT, autistic, disabled, etc., is somehow super bad and offensive. Like... let people have their headcanons. Be cool.

I mean, that's the fun part about games. Especially RPGs in general in my opinion. Even if a character already has an established personality or trait, you are free to imagine or change it any way you want. People were really happy when Symmetra from Overwatch was confirmed to be autistic cause it helped lots of people with that trait to find someone they can connect too.

 

[tci]

Actually, the person in the Gerudo garb, when you call her a man, denies it.

Because that would break his cover. That goes for Link as well in the city. That does not make them both transgender.