Support NeoGAF

[psychowave]

you are kidding yourself if you genuinely don't think link's coy embarrassment where he holds his hand together, looks to the side and blinks bashfully isn't the tropiest of anime girl stereotypes.

yes, they do, but interestingly LttP is discussing stereotypical depictions of gender in media.

Guess I must not be a woman then because I don't act like an anime girl?

Again, sexist garbage.

 

[SarusGray]

I have played BoTW. I see nothing "feminine" in Link's behavior. He just looks shy. Even if you want to act like his behavior is feminine, gender non-conforming men exist.

why is link only a gender non-conforming man when he's in female clothes.... it was a joke the developers made obviously. That was probably funny for a lot of people, because a guy acting.... not the traditional masculine way in feminine clothing is funny apparently.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I have played BoTW. I see nothing "feminine" in Link's behavior. He just looks shy. Even if you want to act like his behavior is feminine, gender non-conforming men exist.

Yes, gender non-conforming men exist. They aren't very commonly portrayed in video games, especially not Japanese video games. Like I pointed out earlier, there are certain behaviors that trans people can adopt, but that can be problematic in fiction, such as deadnaming themselves, or sleeping with men without informing them that they are trans. Pointing out that it's a problematic thing wrt a fictional character does not serve as a condemnation of the people in real life that may do that.

Guess I must not be a woman then because I don't act like an anime girl?

Again, sexist garbage.

To reiterate (and will you please stop calling people sexist, given that you earlier denied the existence of misogyny by older conservative women?): if I criticize a trans character for deadnaming themselves, I am not criticizing a person who deadnames themselves. Just like when I point out that certain behaviors are more feminine and when put into writing are typically going to indicate that the person is female, you are not claiming that non-gender-conforming men do not exist, but rather that the writers are not likely to have added that behavior in. If you believe Link to be a non-gender-conforming man, well, more power to you.

 

[petran79]

Despite not being described as such, I'd consider Link's behavior as "elfish" instead of feminine or masculine.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Guess I must not be a woman then because I don't act like an anime girl?

Again, sexist garbage.

keep missing that point lmao.

please point out where i said that.

if you genuinely think that media depictions of gender cannot be discussed because discussing stereotypes is as bad as stereotyping then i don't know what to say.

 

[SarusGray]

Guess I must not be a woman then because I don't act like an anime girl?

Again, sexist garbage.

you are totally missing the point....

 

[psychowave]

keep missing that point lmao.

please point out where i said that.

if you genuinely think that media depictions of gender cannot be discussed because discussing stereotypes is as bad as stereotyping then i don't know what to say.

I'm saying that someone acting stereotypically "feminine" doesn't make them a woman (or, conversely, that women don't have to act stereotypically feminine to be women), and hence Link making a "feminine" gesture doesn't make him a woman. This is like feminism 101.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

why is link only a gender non-conforming man when he's in female clothes.... it was a joke the developers made obviously. That was probably funny for a lot of people, because a guy acting.... not the traditional masculine way in feminine clothing is funny apparently.

Link in the game is presented as a mostly androgynous character without any real gendered behavior. Both men and women in the game comment on his appearance/hit on him. The only "stereotypical" things he does is flex when shirtless and act bashful when wearing Gerudo clothing.

 

[SarusGray]

I'm saying that someone acting stereotypically "feminine" doesn't make them a woman (or, conversely, that women don't have to act stereotypically feminine to be women), and hence Link making a "feminine" gesture doesn't make him a woman. This is like feminism 101.

If someone is saying that, you're right. That's definitely incorrect.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm saying that someone acting stereotypically "feminine" doesn't make them a woman (or, conversely, that women don't have to act stereotypically feminine to be women), and hence Link making a "feminine" gesture doesn't make him a woman. This is like feminism 101.

Feminism 101 also includes the caveat that criticism or discussion of a character in fiction does not constitute criticism or discussion of people in real life. Again, you're making the GG argument that criticizing a fictional character for having oversized breasts is akin to doing such a thing to a real person.

You are blatantly ignoring that people are discussing the writers and their intent, not arguing that a person must be feminine to be a woman or cannot be a man if they are feminine.

 

[Spinluck]

Zelda guy is clearly cross-dressing to get into Gerudo town. That's how the scene reads on its face, and that's why the 'beard' reveal is okay, imo, if not particularly funny.

It's an entire town of people to trade with but you need to be a woman to enter. The fact that someone would do so isn't outrageous. The portrayal of the Gerudo themselves is awesome, too, so... I don't see much of a problem with it.

Had the male in woman's clothing been somewhere else rather than attempting to get into an all women's town, then I'd see the argument. As it is it's reaching.

Haven't played ME:A or seen any trans character in Horizon so far.

Yeeeup

That's what I gathered

 

[excelsiorlef]

Hey lets just focus on getting gay characters accepted first then lets focus on trans and non-binary which is much harder for people to understand and accept.

Or we could work on everything cause it ain't LGB........T as much as many probably treat is as such.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I'm saying that someone acting stereotypically "feminine" doesn't make them a woman (or, conversely, that women don't have to act stereotypically feminine to be women), and hence Link making a "feminine" gesture doesn't make him a woman. This is like feminism 101.

almost everyone in the zelda universe conforms to gender stereotypes, from clothing and body shape to animation.

it is not a stretch to interpret link exhibiting Zelda-"feminine" behavior as feminine in the context of Zelda.

nobody is talking about real life.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

The crossdressing and displaying/acting feminine traits doesn't seem much different to Kabuki theater. However, the intent of the character is still up to debate. Perhaps only in Gerudo town do they feel like their true gender.

I'm cool with it either way, and Zelda has had transexual characters before.

 

[Fhtagn]

She's saying Link could figure out he's actually a woman after wearing women's clothes, like that's all it takes. She's the one reducing womanhood to a clothing choice.

That's not what's being said here. She's saying it's a possible path. This can happen in real life; people try on gender swapped clothes (for, let's say, a Halloween costume perhaps) and it feels right and it's the beginning of a better understanding of themselves. It's by far not the only way people figure out their gender identity, maybe not even a common one, but the author isn't saying that. It is a plausible angle for head canon for those who want it.

 

[psychowave]

almost everyone in the zelda universe conforms to gender stereotypes, from clothing and body shape to animation.

it is not a stretch to interpret link exhibiting Zelda-"feminine" behavior as feminine in the context of Zelda.

nobody is talking about real life.

The people who assume that a man who wears a dress or a female soldier with short hair must be trans and not maybe just gender non-conforming​ cis people are part of real life, surprisingly enough.

 

[Transistor]

I'm really finding it hard to believe that they brought up Horizon. I know I've mentioned it earlier in the thread, but nothing alludes to that character being a trans character. If anything, like someone else mentioned, it seems more like a Mulan situation where a woman either disguised herself as a man to become a soldier, or a woman defied society to do what she wanted with her life.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The people who assume that a man who wears a dress or a female soldier with short hair must be trans and not maybe just gender non non-conforming​ cis people are part of real life, surprisingly enough.

...And they're not in this thread. You cannot conflate a conversation about fictional characters with real people because there are tons of different variables that go into each. A person who criticizes the propensity of lesbians in fiction who fall into either the "lipstick lesbian" category or the "butch lesbian" category is not criticizing lipstick lesbians or butch lesbians.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

The people who assume that a man who wears a dress or a female soldier with short hair must be trans and not maybe just gender non non-conforming​ cis people are part of real life, surprisingly enough.

great! good thing we're not discussing that.

within the context of zelda, a world in which all of the citizens conform to traditional gender stereotypes, we are discussing how link behaving in a feminine way as defined by the world of Zelda is conforming to the female stereotypes in the world of Zelda.

 

[psychowave]

...And they're not in this thread.

Your basis for Link being a trans woman is him wearing female clothes and "acting feminine", how the hell can you say that?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Your basis for Link being a trans woman is him wearing female clothes and "acting feminine", how the hell can you say that?

Because Link isn't a real person. Using my above example, is it your argument that a person who criticizes the propensity of lesbians who conform to stereotypes in fiction constitutes a criticism of real people who fit that stereotype?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Fair enough, but that makes me uncertain why Laura is putting it across as

Did you just bold one out of a list as if to ignore that it's in a list?

The list was characters, plot lines or themes.

There is a definite trans character in ME:A and the other two arguably touch plotlines and themes.

 

[chillybright]

That's like, your headcanon.

 

[Antiwhippy]

great! good thing we're not discussing that.

within the context of zelda, a world in which all of the citizens conform to traditional gender stereotypes, we are discussing how link behaving in a feminine way as defined by the world of Zelda is conforming to the female stereotypes in the world of Zelda.

Tbf on zelda, even in gerudo town itself there is a diversity of women characters that don't just fall into one stereotype.

 

[psychowave]

Because Link isn't a real person. Using my above example, is it your argument that a person who criticizes the propensity of lesbians who conform to stereotypes in fiction constitutes a criticism of real people who fit that stereotype?

Then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I think our views on fictional characters have real life ramifications to some extent.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I think our views on fictional characters have real life ramifications to some extent.

But no, I do have to ask you, do you think that criticism of lesbian stereotypes in games constitutes criticism of real-life lesbians?

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Tbf on zelda, even in gerudo town itself there is a diversity of women characters that don't just fall into one stereotype.

that is true, but even with the diversity on display in gerudo town there are still clear gender signifiers present across all of the women.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I think our views on fictional characters have real life ramifications to some extent.

so if I point out that mexico in most hollywood movies is depicted as a lawless dustbowl of violence and despair then I am saying that mexico irl is a lawless dustbowl of violence and despair?

 

[Cyanity]

I doubt anyone will really care

Spoiler

I know lol

 

[psychowave]

But no, I do have to ask you, do you think that criticism of lesbian stereotypes in games constitutes criticism of real-life lesbians?

No, just like my criticism of your headcanon of Link as a trans woman just because he is "feminine" doesn't constitute criticism of real life trans women who happen to be "feminine". Your point makes no sense.

so if I point out that mexico in most hollywood movies is depicted as a lawless dustbowl of violence and despair then I am saying that mexico irl is a lawless dustbowl of violence and despair?

No. You're very clearly misunderstanding my point but I've repeated myself many times now so I'm just gonna let it go.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Or we could work on everything cause it ain't LGB........T as much as many probably treat is as such.

I get that exposure helps younger people to be more accepting, but from a company like the big N's perspective, less than 4% of the population is LGBT (at least in America), and im not sure how much of that percentage represents transgendered people.
Unless theres something important to say, I dont see how making Link transgendered would be in their priorities at all. It was simple comedy via contrast, and if anything the perverted voice the man Link gets clothes from has seems more like a total piss take. I dont see how this is at all a positive depiction.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No, just like my criticism of your headcanon of Link as a trans woman just because he is "feminine" doesn't constitute criticism of real life trans women who happen to be "feminine". Your point makes no sense.

Because when we are talking about and criticizing Link or whomever, we are not putting forth the notion that feminine = female, we are discussing the writers - people who likely are not thinking about non-gender-conforming men.

People in this thread, some of them anyway, interpret Link as female in part because she exhibits feminine mannerisms, but also because the people who wrote those in are from a culture that has more strict viewpoints on gender than we have here - as WELL as the context of the scene, where the other person was acting feminine while also presenting as a woman, therefore it is likely that Link was acting feminine in order to present as female.

No. You're very clearly misunderstanding my point but I've repeated myself many times now so I'm just gonna let it go.

You have done rather poorly to understand others' points, including the subject of this thread, so I wouldn't pull that card - especially when you've been on the offensive and attacking people for things that you have honestly been guilty of as well.

 

[SarusGray]

No, just like my criticism of your headcanon of Link as a trans woman just because he is "feminine" doesn't constitute criticism of real life trans women who happen to be "feminine". Your point makes no sense.




No. You're very clearly misunderstanding my point but I've repeated myself many times now so I'm just gonna let it go.

I mean I pretended zidane from final fantasy was gay because he was very flashy and his attire is a bit strange, but only because my sad 6 year old self had like no representation or anyone to relate to. Is that wrong?

 

[The Wart]

Guess I must not be a woman then because I don't act like an anime girl?

Again, sexist garbage.

Are you... trolling? There's no way you can sincerely read that meaning into anything people have said here.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

No. You're very clearly misunderstanding my point but I've repeated myself many times now so I'm just gonna let it go.

No, I'm not, I'm pointing out how stupid it is to suggest that discussing how link might be trans because he conforms to gender stereotypes outlined by zelda isn't sexist garbage.

in that scene, link conforms to feminine gender stereotypes as defined by zelda, and thus could be construed as link being trans due to the fact that almost every character in that game confirms rigidly to male/female gender signifiers as defined by that game.

 

[Madness]

If they don't do it, they get criticized, if they do try to make an attempt or try and include it, it gets shredded for being half-assed. You can expect it to be greater, but it is not a priority for them and just won't happen. They will do it do they can make a modicum of effort but nothing that goes above and beyond. That isn't their goal.

 

[psychowave]

Because when we are talking about and criticizing Link or whomever, we are not putting forth the notion that feminine = female, we are discussing the writers - people who likely are not thinking about non-gender-conforming men.

People in this thread, some of them anyway, interpret Link as female in part because she exhibits feminine mannerisms, but also because the people who wrote those in are from a culture that has more strict viewpoints on gender than we have here - as WELL as the context of the scene, where the other person was acting feminine while also presenting as a woman, therefore it is likely that Link was acting feminine in order to present as female.

This is a huge misunderstanding of Japanese culture. What constitutes as femininity and masculinity in Japan isn't the same as other countries and assuming otherwise is Western-centric.

Spoiler

I'm an expert.

 

[RinsFury]

If Samus turns out to be transgender, that would be genuinely amazing. It would also drive gamergaters utterly bonkers, which would be fantastic.

I would love this.

 

[xelios]

Link displays stereotypically feminine behavior when she first gets the Gerudo vai outfit, and is being complimented.

Link is a he. Cross-dressing and acting like a woman as a means to an end does not make one trans. This goes all the way back to Crystalis on NES, where you must transform into a woman to get anything accomplished in a town of only women as a means to an end. Same exact thing and no one was making these ridiculous arguments back then.

Zelda guy is clearly cross-dressing to get into Gerudo town. That's how the scene reads on its face, and that's why the 'beard' reveal is okay, imo, if not particularly funny.

It's an entire town of people to trade with but you need to be a woman to enter. The fact that someone would do so isn't outrageous. The portrayal of the Gerudo themselves is awesome, too, so... I don't see much of a problem with it.

Had the male in woman's clothing been somewhere else rather than attempting to get into an all women's town, then I'd see the argument. As it is it's reaching.

The thing with Link was comic relief at best. If you think Nintendo was trying to say something about links gender identity when hes basically a self insert character without a voice or much of a personality, then you're out of your mind.

Yep, extreme reaching.

Because that would break his cover. That goes for Link as well in the city. That does not make them both transgender.

Link isn't a person coming out as a "trans" just because he slips into the Gerudo clothing .

Correct, people seeing what they want to see. I'm all for more trans representation but this is not a case of it. The arguments being made here just look desperate.

Instead of making up trans characters that aren't there, why not push harder for real ones?

 

[A Link to the Past]

If they don't do it, they get criticized, if they do try to make an attempt or try and include it, it gets shredded for being half-assed. You can expect it to be greater, but it is not a priority for them and just won't happen. They will do it do they can make a modicum of effort but nothing that goes above and beyond. That isn't their goal.

If they do bad, they should expect for it to be said, and the fact that it's not a priority for them won't change that people will want it to be.

 

[excelsiorlef]

To be honest, Brianna Wu is a joke. I had to unfollow her because she just starts so much crap and she once sat down with Brad Wardell and said "we actually have a lot in common" when it came to business etc. She's not really much of an ally despite herself being trans.

Fascinating how Gamergate bullshit just enters into the accepted narrative...

For the record Wu has never said whether she is or isn't trans.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Because that would break his cover. That goes for Link as well in the city. That does not make them both transgender.

That's either a quote by the developer or a fan making their interpretation of intent. And didn't you hear? Interpretations are bad, no one should ever make them

 

[Cyanity]

I think it's just nice that Nintendo has given us the ability to play as a cross-dressing Link this time around.
Whether or not they originally intended it as a piss-take, the fact that we can hold onto the clothing and ostensibly
wear it throughout the entire game means that those of us in the LGBT community can play a character that
relates to us a little more than the average videogame protagonist.

 

[Piggus]

That's either a quote by the developer or a fan making their interpretation of intent. And didn't you hear? Interpretations are bad, no one should ever make them

You can interpret the story however you want, but I think the writing and overall design of that quest makes it pretty clear what the developers were going for.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think it's just nice that Nintendo has given us the ability to play as a cross-dressing Link this time around.
Whether or not they originally intended it as a piss-take, the fact that we can hold onto the clothing and ostensibly
wear it throughout the entire game means that those of us in the LGBT community can play a character that
relates to us a little more than the average videogame protagonist.

Nintendo has certainly done better to indicate transgender/gender-nonconformist characters. Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Pokémon, and now Zelda (even if it's done a little clumsily).

 

[excelsiorlef]

I get that exposure helps younger people to be more accepting, but from a company like the big N's perspective, less than 4% of the population is LGBT (at least in America), and im not sure how much of that percentage represents transgendered people.
Unless theres something important to say, I dont see how making Link transgendered would be in their priorities at all. It was simple comedy via contrast, and if anything the perverted voice the man Link gets clothes from has seems more like a total piss take. I dont see how this is at all a positive depiction.

Ok.... I don't really need to be reminded that because I''m a small minority that my representation just isn't that important... I kinda know that.

My post had nothing to do with Zelda...

 

[Hallowed]

It's telling, isn't it? The sad state in which trans representation is regarding video-games when people are this desperate to try and make out Link to be trans when he's clearly not. It's already been explained what that scene was about and yet people still want to block it out and believe what they want.

If anything is learned from this, it's that more, clear, representation is needed.

 

[G-Unit]

Sees article
Roll eyes

 

[tci]

That's either a quote by the developer or a fan making their interpretation of intent. And didn't you hear? Interpretations are bad, no one should ever make them

No one is saying you can't have them. By all means. But that doesn't mean it is the correct interpretation of it. All I am saying is that the author is grasping and making a point from a standpoint, not by the contents of the game.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No one is saying you can't have them. By all means. But that doesn't mean it is the correct interpretation of it. All I am saying is that the author is grasping and making a point from a standpoint, not by the content of the game.

What's a correct interpretation though? What's THE correct interpretation? Aren't interpretations inherently neither correct or incorrect? Because if an interpretation is correct, isn't it just fact at that point?

 

[KingV]

Fascinating how Gamergate bullshit just enters into the accepted narrative...

For the record Wu has never said whether she is or isn't trans.

Whether or not she talks about it, it is well-established that she is trans.