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[boredandlazy]

We don't know because there is no language indicator to make it apparent unless you are LGBTQ yourself or are familiar with LGBTQ.

Is that considered a good or bad way to go about it?
I'll admit it didn't really cross my mind whilst playing it, however as soon as I read there was apparently a trans character in Horizon this was the first character that came to mind.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Whether or not she talks about it, it is well-established that she is trans.

Link?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Also word of advice if your hot take is to come in here and post about how society at large doesn't really think or care about Queer representation and thus Queer folk shouldn't expect much because we're so statistically insignificant... yeah save the typing time, next to no Queer person is not aware of that, we literally when talking about Queer representation don't need to be reminded about how insignificant we are. We don't need you to explain that to us.

 

[Quonny]

Link?

No, Wu.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Whether or not she talks about it, it is well-established that she is trans.

By absolutely no one but Gamergate....

So yeah...

 

[SarusGray]

Is that considered a good or bad way to go about it?
I'll admit it didn't really cross my mind whilst playing it, however as soon as I read there was apparently a trans character in Horizon this was the first character that came to mind.

If we're going by transgender representation like the character was actually transgender, it's bad in a sense it'll fly by many gamers head but good that the LGBTQ community will see it but bad that it was an opportunity to introduce a pretty cool transgender character to the general populace but good in a sense that GG is heading towards a good direction.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Ok.... I don't really need to be reminded that because I''m a small minority that my representation just isn't that important... I kinda know that.

My post had nothing to do with Zelda...

I said it was important in media, but also understandable why its taking so long for something that doesn't just seem like tokenism. The zelda character moans like a sex pervert, which isnt the first time ive seen this kind of representation in Japanese media, so im really baffled as to how that case was being championed (yes I know youre not talking about Zelda, but its relevant).

 

[tci]

What's a correct interpretation though? What's THE correct interpretation? Aren't interpretations inherently neither correct or incorrect? Because if an interpretation is correct, isn't it just fact at that point?

Like I posted earlier the author is interpreting some characters as transgender when it is not clearly represented in the game(s).

Just because a woman cross-dress to fit a male dominant role does not make her transgender. And a man is not a transgender just because he cross-dresses to sneak into a city or tricking a man to get an item. Isn't that kinda like shitting at a group of genders as well?

Again I think the article is reaching too much to find transgender issues. Maybe that is because the author comes from that said group, and is seeing something there when it is not.

I would love for Laura to actually have a proper article about a transgender character in a game. The topic is for sure open for discussion, and causes heated debate. But Zelda and Horizon is not one of them. At least not from the basis of the article.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I said it was important in media, but also understandable why its taking so long for something that doesn't just seem like tokenism. The zelda character moans like a sex pervert, which isnt the first time ive seen this kind of representation in Japanese media, so im really baffled as to how that case was being championed (yes I know youre not talking about Zelda, but its relevant).

Not to my post which was literally a reply to someone saying we shouldn't even bother with trans representation at all but only focus on gay representation because apparently the acronym is a priority list

 

[SomTervo]

And yet Ubisoft sit there and totally nail it

Based Ubisoft

 

[JeTmAn81]

Whether or not she talks about it, it is well-established that she is trans.

As a former regular listener to her podcasts, I was curious about this and looked it up a couple of times. There's no evidence outside of gossip of likely malicious intent that Brianna Wu is transgender.

 

[MrGreencastle]

Yeah the Zelda one I think is more about crossdressing than a commentary on trans culture.

That said, I thought it was cool, because you get to check out a society that for many years has not had a whole lot of exploration despite the 'lore' explaining the whole female-dominated culture the Gerudo have had for many years in Zelda.

Even better (minor spoilers):

Spoiler

Later on in the game, you get a chance to purchase male-Gerudo clothing from another vendor in a town that you have to build from the ground-up. I figured, hey, maybe they will finally let me in with this garb - NOPE, still a voe! They are very strict, even toward the saviour of their entire city.

Thinking about it further though... I wonder if the Gerudo town would kick you out if you came out as a trans man. A voe is a voe I bet they are far less accepting toward that as a society compared to, say, the Gorons (

Spoiler

who actually are allowed in despite being male - there's even a Hylian girl that is studying that discrepancy there!

).

 

[Replicant]

I'm really finding it hard to believe that they brought up Horizon. I know I've mentioned it earlier in the thread, but nothing alludes to that character being a trans character. If anything, like someone else mentioned, it seems more like a Mulan situation where a woman either disguised herself as a man to become a soldier, or a woman defied society to do what she wanted with her life.

Yeah, I can understand the desire for trans representation, but Asian literature and popular media have plenty of "women dressing up like men to be able to perform the same societal roles that men are allowed to do but women aren't" trope. This is mostly a carry-over from the olden days where in order to not be noticed, a female martial artist dress up as a man only to reveal herself as a beautiful woman later on. Takarazuka theater troupe in Japan is also based on this idea of women cross-dressing as men. That particular tribe in Horizon is clearly asian tribe and was likely designed with this trope in mind.

 

[Platy]

My headcanon is that Wu is trans ... like Jade Raymond, Corrinne Yu, Kellee Santiago, Rieko Kodama, etc

In my headcanon only Anna Antrophy is cis

 

[boujeejamboree]

Money never bought an ounce of time.

 

[tuhbakie]

I sold my Switch and copy of Zelda when I reached the Gerudo town because of how infuriated I was. I had been role-playing as an immigrant venturing into Hyrule with the goal of wanting a better life. This meant working towards purchasing a home and earning rupees through jobs I could be proud of. However, when I was kicked out of that town and denied entry--I was honestly triggered. There this city resided in the shadow of walls that stood on each of its sides. Yet, here I was, yes, a man, unfortunately, but someone of color and a different culture (in the confines of the game; I was trying to understand the struggle of others less fortunate than I), who was told to get out, told I couldn't be given an opportunity or respect because of my background. It made me sick. This was something out of a certain country's current political climate. I just do not know what Nintendo were thinking or how they were able to release a game like this which promotes exclusivity and discrimination. Again, just sickening.

 

[Ketkat]

I sold my Switch and copy of Zelda when I reached the Gerudo town because of how infuriated I was. I had been role-playing as an immigrant venturing into Hyrule with the goal of wanting a better life. This meant working towards purchasing a home and earning rupees through jobs I could be proud of. However, when I was kicked out of that town and denied entry--I was honestly triggered. There this city resided in the shadow of walls that stood on each of its sides. Yet, here I was, yes, a man, unfortunately, but someone of color and a different culture (in the confines of the game; I was trying to understand the struggle of others less fortunate than I), who was told to get out, told I couldn't be given an opportunity or respect because of my background. It made me sick. This was something out of a certain country's current political climate. I just do not know what Nintendo were thinking or how they were able to release a game like this which promotes exclusivity and discrimination. Again, just sickening.

Ok?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Ok?

They're making fun of people talking about Zelda and Trans issues for shits and giggles I imagine

Probably think they're super witty too.

 

[pashmilla]

I sold my Switch and copy of Zelda when I reached the Gerudo town because of how infuriated I was. I had been role-playing as an immigrant venturing into Hyrule with the goal of wanting a better life. This meant working towards purchasing a home and earning rupees through jobs I could be proud of. However, when I was kicked out of that town and denied entry--I was honestly triggered. There this city resided in the shadow of walls that stood on each of its sides. Yet, here I was, yes, a man, unfortunately, but someone of color and a different culture (in the confines of the game; I was trying to understand the struggle of others less fortunate than I), who was told to get out, told I couldn't be given an opportunity or respect because of my background. It made me sick. This was something out of a certain country's current political climate. I just do not know what Nintendo were thinking or how they were able to release a game like this which promotes exclusivity and discrimination. Again, just sickening.

you know you've been on gaf too long when you can no longer tell the difference between stupid shitposting and stupid genuine opinions

 

[Ketkat]

They're making fun of people talking about Zelda and Trans issues for shits and giggles I imagine

Yeah I got that.

Its just not even comparable and I don't even know what he wants us to say about that.

 

[The Wart]

I sold my Switch and copy of Zelda when I reached the Gerudo town because of how infuriated I was. I had been role-playing as an immigrant venturing into Hyrule with the goal of wanting a better life. This meant working towards purchasing a home and earning rupees through jobs I could be proud of. However, when I was kicked out of that town and denied entry--I was honestly triggered. There this city resided in the shadow of walls that stood on each of its sides. Yet, here I was, yes, a man, unfortunately, but someone of color and a different culture (in the confines of the game; I was trying to understand the struggle of others less fortunate than I), who was told to get out, told I couldn't be given an opportunity or respect because of my background. It made me sick. This was something out of a certain country's current political climate. I just do not know what Nintendo were thinking or how they were able to release a game like this which promotes exclusivity and discrimination. Again, just sickening.

Sigh. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[WordsintheWater]

I understood her to be a woman that had over come her male dominant society by showing her strength. Nothing implied to me she was trans.

Cool character either way, I liked her.

Exactly how I saw the character, that's why I was racking my brain trying to think of who the author of the article was talking about.

 

[Makonero]

I sold my Switch and copy of Zelda when I reached the Gerudo town because of how infuriated I was. I had been role-playing as an immigrant venturing into Hyrule with the goal of wanting a better life. This meant working towards purchasing a home and earning rupees through jobs I could be proud of. However, when I was kicked out of that town and denied entry--I was honestly triggered. There this city resided in the shadow of walls that stood on each of its sides. Yet, here I was, yes, a man, unfortunately, but someone of color and a different culture (in the confines of the game; I was trying to understand the struggle of others less fortunate than I), who was told to get out, told I couldn't be given an opportunity or respect because of my background. It made me sick. This was something out of a certain country's current political climate. I just do not know what Nintendo were thinking or how they were able to release a game like this which promotes exclusivity and discrimination. Again, just sickening.

poe's law just went into effect

 

[Fhtagn]

you know you've been on gaf too long when you can no longer tell the difference between stupid shitposting and stupid genuine opinions

Thanks to assholes mocking the word into the ground, nobody sincerely uses triggered anymore, even in therapy groups for survivors of childhood trauma, so, that's the tip off that this is a tasteless joke.

For example: https://mobile.twitter.com/Menwithaven/status/842551528569356289

 

[AlucardGV]

you guys are kidding, that's a 2/10 bait effort

 

[kitchenmotors]

Oh come on they are reaching with Zelda, cross-dressing isn't the same same as transgender.

"I’m going to put both transvestite and cross-dresser together for simplicity. Transvestites and cross-dressers are typically heterosexual males who wear traditionally feminine clothing. Transvestite has been labeled in the past to associate cross-dressing with sexual arousal, but that term has changed to transvestic fetishism.

Cross-dressers don’t associate with the LGBTQ community and don’t see themselves as anything but straight/heterosexual. Drag queens and drag kings are not usually labeled as cross-dressers/transvestites. Why? Good question, actually. People that dress in drag tend to be gay and cross-dressers tend to be straight."

Yeah, the Zelda thing is reaching. But it's Polygon, can't expect something of substance.

I love Bolson. With a great gay character in Zelda. Best character in the game.

I sold my Switch and copy of Zelda when I reached the Gerudo town because of how infuriated I was. I had been role-playing as an immigrant venturing into Hyrule with the goal of wanting a better life. This meant working towards purchasing a home and earning rupees through jobs I could be proud of. However, when I was kicked out of that town and denied entry--I was honestly triggered. There this city resided in the shadow of walls that stood on each of its sides. Yet, here I was, yes, a man, unfortunately, but someone of color and a different culture (in the confines of the game; I was trying to understand the struggle of others less fortunate than I), who was told to get out, told I couldn't be given an opportunity or respect because of my background. It made me sick. This was something out of a certain country's current political climate. I just do not know what Nintendo were thinking or how they were able to release a game like this which promotes exclusivity and discrimination. Again, just sickening.

You're not cute. You're not going to win internet cred points. Go do something meaningful in your actual life than trying to be clever on the internet. No one cares about how big your e-dick is.

 

[mothball]

you know you've been on gaf too long when you can no longer tell the difference between stupid shitposting and stupid genuine opinions

tell me about it

 

[KahooTs]

Is there any suggestion of Bolson's sexuality in the game?

 

[Blackthorn]

I noticed Horizon's example and thought it was an elegant way to go about it considering the terminology would be a long way from existing given the society's current level of development and highly defined gender roles amongst the Carja, and to a lesser degree the Osseram and Nora too. The Banuk seem truly egalitarian, though.

It's tricky in fantasy worlds. Trans acceptance is a result of advanced, peaceful societies, but of course trans people have always existed. Even if they can't be out and accepted and transitioned in the game world, they should still exist, and get by as well as they can in their circumstances.

 

[Platy]

Is there any suggestion of Bolson's sexuality in the game?

Besides the borderline offensive stereotype, no

 

[Bastables]

That's...interesting. I never even considered Janeva in Horizon a trans character, honestly. I always assumed she was a woman, especially considering the diversity of the women represented in the game. Weird.

I 'd agree, She identified as a women. Trying to counter read her as Trans is as problematic as applying it to noted military "cross dressers" such Joan of Arc (who never hid that she was a women, or more correctly identified as a male) or Mulan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing,_gender_identity,_and_sexuality_of_Joan_of_Arc

But I guess a counter reading can be as valid as any other reading, and it does generate thinking about the issue.

 

[The Wart]

Yeah, the Zelda thing is reaching. But it's Polygon, can't expect something of substance.

I really don't think that's fair. Sure it is ambiguous whether the merchant is really "trans"
vs an opportunistic cross dresser (though again she does insist on being referred to as a woman even when there are no Gerudo around she would need to hide from) but, as other people have pointed out previously, societal attitudes toward cross dressing are not unrelated to attitudes towards trans people.

 

[HK-47]

I noticed Horizon's example and thought it was an elegant way to go about it considering the terminology would be a long way from existing given the society's current level of development and highly defined gender roles amongst the Carja, and to a lesser degree the Osseram and Nora too. The Banuk seem truly egalitarian, though.

It's tricky in fantasy worlds. Trans acceptance is a result of advanced, peaceful societies, but of course trans people have always existed. Even if they can't be out and accepted and transitioned in the game world, they should still exist, and get by as well as they can in their circumstances.

Its a give and take between knowing how people and ingroups act and wanting to make a fantasy world that is welcoming.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I haven't got to that part in Horizon yet so I don't know the full context, but that example reads more like a homage to Mulan.

I haven't seen Mulan since the 90s though, so there's probably some subtext I'm missing.

 

[J-Skee]

I think Horizon's character is more of a Mulan type of character - just a brave crossdresser. Also, the criticism in the article isn't valid seeing that the Sundom's society and culture isn't really about being inclusive.

If she is indeed a trans well then he was probably the best handling of it in a video game. No need to just say "I'm trans" as it wouldn't fit in this context, and he would def be pursecuted in this region for admitting it.
Guerilla built an in-game culture and doing the above would damage the atmosphere and political climate that the Carja represent / uphold.

Literally, when you ask for a realistic trans character... this would be it. Y'all can argue they should have had a larger role, but I think they're a good representation.

Would the characters in Horizon when he the word "trans"? I feel like it would be called something different.

 

[xelios]

I sold my Switch and copy of Zelda when I reached the Gerudo town because of how infuriated I was. I had been role-playing as an immigrant venturing into Hyrule with the goal of wanting a better life. This meant working towards purchasing a home and earning rupees through jobs I could be proud of. However, when I was kicked out of that town and denied entry--I was honestly triggered. There this city resided in the shadow of walls that stood on each of its sides. Yet, here I was, yes, a man, unfortunately, but someone of color and a different culture (in the confines of the game; I was trying to understand the struggle of others less fortunate than I), who was told to get out, told I couldn't be given an opportunity or respect because of my background. It made me sick. This was something out of a certain country's current political climate. I just do not know what Nintendo were thinking or how they were able to release a game like this which promotes exclusivity and discrimination. Again, just sickening.

 

[rackham]

Who was the trans character in HORIZON?

 

[chillybright]

Is she considered trans?

 

[boujeejamboree]

Money never bought an ounce of time.

 

[Nanashrew]

Fascinating how Gamergate bullshit just enters into the accepted narrative...

For the record Wu has never said whether she is or isn't trans.

Okay, that is my mistake and I fully apologize for it.

 

[Drewboy64]

Tend to agree, as much as i love the game and Nintendo. Japanese as a whole is still in the "crossdressing = funny" stage and media where trans characters are something other than a walking joke is rare (only thing i can think of off the top of my head is Catherine).

Doesn't mean that trans characters are *only* jokes, like with One Piece where it's definitely a joke but they're also goodhearted people who are very self-sacrificing, but i would doubt Nintendo had any pro-trans awareness when doing the Gerudo Town infiltration plotline.

Not a videogame, but the show Midnight Diner actually had a pretty good episode about a trans person. Beyond that though, I dunno.

Yeah, I kinda agree it's stretching, though it's nice to think about Zelda having that level of awareness of trans people

 

[rackham]

Who's the trans character in HORIZON?

 

[Platy]

It says a lot about the lack of trans characters in videogames when a journalist is so desperate to read any slight chance of a trans character as a real deal

 

[rackham]

It says a lot about the lack of trans characters in videogames when a journalist is so desperate to read any slight chance of a trans character as a real deal

I think it says more about the journalist.

 

[Laughing Banana]

DA4 will probably take place in Tevinter... Krem is from Tevinter... please god Bioware Krem as party member and love interest

Fat chance for that, considering you can actually kill him in Iron Bull's quest.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I see that as I expected the not so subtle point behind the gerudo quest goes ignored to propose falsehoods. The entire idea is that the game is mocking the gerudo town for being as segregated as it is, that's why Link, a male has to bear through the burden of wearing a weak as shit armor (it's only a level 3 armor and along side the stuff you get In the shrine of resurrection, it's the only armor that can't be upgraded) when in town at all times, as taking off any piece whatsoever will immediately alert the guards that Link is male and will result in him being kicked out. Couple this with the fact that the male gorons are let in and even question why they're let in, and the secret clothing shop that sells male specific clothing that's apparently illegal to sell in town despite the shop keep remarking that there's always a demand for male clothing for some reason, and it's pretty clear the game is mocking the gerudo town because of how selective it is with who it let's in.

Then throw in the actual male gerudo outfit that Link can buy, that's a level 9 armor and is upgradable and it's pretty clear the gerudo clothes you use to infiltrate the gerudo town aren't some grand hint that Link is secretly trans, but that they're meant to be a burden.

Seriously, I'm in the process of questioning if I'm trans or not, and I wouldn't suddenly magically have all the answers if I threw a dress on, because I already have and it didn't solve my issues which were already present.

 

[ShyMel]

I don't know what you meant to say, but I'm of the camp that doesn't view the Horizon character as even identifying as trans. They're more like Mulan

This is how I read the character as well. The Carja abide by strict gender roles. The lady you give the hunting medals to makes a comment on how Carja women aren't raised to hunt (or something to that effect), I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Carja female NPCs wear dresses/skirts and makeup, and there are no female Carja guards/soldiers minus the Mulan-esque character. Also (spoiler for another sidequest in the game)

Spoiler

the game has a sidequest helping a gay man see the work of his dead lover and specifically uses male pronouns when referencing his lover, leaving no room for ambiguity. So I think if the character in question was to be trans, it would have been crystal clear.

 

[TransTrender]

They are reaching really, really goddamn hard with Zelda.

No shit.
I haven't played the other games yet, because you know...BotW, but come on.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think it says more about the journalist.

No, I think it says more of the industry that someone has to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find trans characters in games.

 

[Nudull]

That Mass Effect example is pretty ass-backwards of Bioware, considering the goodwill they got from Dragon Age Inquisition.