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New Ocarina of Time Any% World Record by TorjeAGC: 17:09

I can't get into exploitative speedruns. I get the appeal for some, but to me mastering the actual game and completing all of the challenges in record time is more impressive. Granted it wouldn't be done in some 17 minutes but, nonetheless.
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
I can't get into exploitative speedruns. I get the appeal for some, but to me mastering the actual game and completing all of the challenges in record time is more impressive. Granted it wouldn't be done in some 17 minutes but, nonetheless.
There are glitchless speedruns, too.
 

Kindekuma

Banned
17:09? Jesus. I remember when OoT was considered dead at 18:10. TorjeAGC admits to making mistakes in the run despite being WR, so something in 16:50s sounds possible, but man, these runs are almost frame for frame perfect at times. Congrats to the runner!
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
I mean, I am also not impressed by speedruns that utilize stuff like this to skip 99% of the game. But that's only because "speedrun" means something specific to me, it means doing something really fast within the game's purposeful limitations.

Now if we just did something as pedantic as rename what this is, I'd be fine with it. Cause it's absolutely still an impressive and highly skill-based thing that's happening here. But it needs to be classified somehow differently. Same way Tool Assisted Speedruns have their own nomenclature. "Glitch-based Speedrun" I dunno, something.
 

emb

Member
What's he doing when he first falls to the basement, goes through the wall, and then climbs back up? Not sure I've seen that before, though obviously I don't pay much attention to the developments.

I can't get into exploitative speedruns. I get the appeal for some, but to me mastering the actual game and completing all of the challenges in record time is more impressive. Granted it wouldn't be done in some 17 minutes but, nonetheless.
I don't really agree with you, but I see where you're coming from! They have rulesets out there for that too. For this game the best times for that clock in at just under 4 hours. http://www.speedrun.com/oot#Glitchless

Certain games beaten as fast as possible become really degenerate to watch/play, so it makes sense to avoid certain things. I'd draw the line much closer to allowing things though. To me manipulating the rules of the game world is the interesting part (not that I'm really capable of discovering things or even executing most things).
 

JayEH

Junior Member
I mean, I am also not impressed by speedruns that utilize stuff like this to skip 99% of the game. But that's only because "speedrun" means something specific to me, it means doing something really fast within the game's purposeful limitations.

Now if we just did something as pedantic as rename what this is, I'd be fine with it. Cause it's absolutely still an impressive and highly skill-based thing that's happening here. But it needs to be classified somehow differently. Same way Tool Assisted Speedruns have their own nomenclature. "Glitch-based Speedrun" I dunno, something.

They're called Any% Runs.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
They're called Any% Runs.

Oh yeah? I see that in the OP, but it wasn't super clear to me what it meant. I feel like I've heard it before, and it meant just not doing all the things in a game. Like a 100% speedrun being getting All The Stuff, and an any% being just rushing to the end. Is that not the case? Does any% imply glitch-use explicitly?
 

MUnited83

For you.
What the fuck is this garbage? So he hacked the game and its a speed run of a hack or major glitch...wow so impressive...

Edit: Apparently I don't understand the art of speedruns.
"Hacking " the game by exclusively using actual controller input on real hardware is pretty impressive I would say.
 

Fireblend

Banned
I mean, I am also not impressed by speedruns that utilize stuff like this to skip 99% of the game. But that's only because "speedrun" means something specific to me, it means doing something really fast within the game's purposeful limitations.

Now if we just did something as pedantic as rename what this is, I'd be fine with it. Cause it's absolutely still an impressive and highly skill-based thing that's happening here. But it needs to be classified somehow differently. Same way Tool Assisted Speedruns have their own nomenclature. "Glitch-based Speedrun" I dunno, something.

That's pretty much exactly what "any%" means. It implies "finishing the game" without any other requirement. Just do whatever's necessary to get to the credits.
 

Mugsy

Member
I mean, I am also not impressed by speedruns that utilize stuff like this to skip 99% of the game. But that's only because "speedrun" means something specific to me, it means doing something really fast within the game's purposeful limitations.

Now if we just did something as pedantic as rename what this is, I'd be fine with it. Cause it's absolutely still an impressive and highly skill-based thing that's happening here. But it needs to be classified somehow differently. Same way Tool Assisted Speedruns have their own nomenclature. "Glitch-based Speedrun" I dunno, something.

Most games will have an any% speedrun, a 100% speedrun (if applicable), and if the any% is too far off of playing the game normally there will probably be another category that is essentially any% with some extra restriction to keep it somewhat normal. For Ocarina of Time this is called the "all dungeons" run in which the runner must have completed all major dungeons before beating Ganon. They use warp glitches and do things out of order but they still do all the major parts of the game.
 

Lukemon

Member
I can't get into exploitative speedruns. I get the appeal for some, but to me mastering the actual game and completing all of the challenges in record time is more impressive. Granted it wouldn't be done in some 17 minutes but, nonetheless.

That's the beauty of speedruns, though - multiple categories exist for pretty much every game so if you want to see or challenge the best glitchless runs, you can. Easily. The fastest times will naturally always involve exploits, though, and a lot of people fail to realise just how precise and difficult some of the tricks in these are to pull off outside of TAS runs.

Edit: Beaten like a 5min+ SMB run, but still relevant.
 
Oh yeah? I see that in the OP, but it wasn't super clear to me what it meant. I feel like I've heard it before, and it meant just not doing all the things in a game. Like a 100% speedrun being getting All The Stuff, and an any% being just rushing to the end. Is that not the case? Does any% imply glitch-use explicitly?

Any% means using absolutely anything in the game to complete it as fast as possible, 100% is your typical get everything category but also has no restrictions. Depending on the severity of the glitches games have their own specific categories that range from banning certain glitches to straight glitchless.
 

FSLink

Banned
Oh yeah? I see that in the OP, but it wasn't super clear to me what it meant. I feel like I've heard it before, and it meant just not doing all the things in a game. Like a 100% speedrun being getting All The Stuff, and an any% being just rushing to the end. Is that not the case? Does any% imply glitch-use explicitly?

Any% means using whatever means necessary to get to the end (outside of using external hacking tools), so yeah usually it's glitch filled. I find the majority of any% runs more interesting than most 100% speedruns since it tends to show more weird programming quirks and how the game handles certain situations, and combining it with precise speedy gameplay.

That's the beauty of speedruns, though - multiple categories exist for pretty much every game so if you want to see or challenge the best glitchless runs, you can. Easily. The fastest times will naturally always involve exploits, though, and a lot of people fail to realise just how precise and difficult some of the tricks in these are to pull off outside of TAS runs.

Yeah as a fighting game player despite not having issues with most combos in most fighting games, some of these speedruns make me cringe at how precise they have to be lol. It's awesome how good speedrunners can make certain skips look effortless, but sometimes people overlook how much effort it actually takes.
 

DoubleYou

Member
Oh yeah? I see that in the OP, but it wasn't super clear to me what it meant. I feel like I've heard it before, and it meant just not doing all the things in a game. Like a 100% speedrun being getting All The Stuff, and an any% being just rushing to the end. Is that not the case? Does any% imply glitch-use explicitly?

Any% means no rules. Just beating the game as fast as you possibly can. I think most games have some glitchless categories. Don't think they're very popular though.
 

emb

Member
Oh yeah? I see that in the OP, but it wasn't super clear to me what it meant. I feel like I've heard it before, and it meant just not doing all the things in a game. Like a 100% speedrun being getting All The Stuff, and an any% being just rushing to the end. Is that not the case? Does any% imply glitch-use explicitly?
Nah, it doesn't really specify that. It's just that, as a speedrun, the default rule is just 'beat the game as fast as possible'. Any% is a shorthand way of saying that there are no other (or few other) rules. It doesn't necessarily mean that the game does or doesn't involve glitches.

If certain things need to be ruled out to make a more interesting category, the category would be named for what it doesn't have (eg: glitchless or no major glitches).
 

JayEH

Junior Member
Oh yeah? I see that in the OP, but it wasn't super clear to me what it meant. I feel like I've heard it before, and it meant just not doing all the things in a game. Like a 100% speedrun being getting All The Stuff, and an any% being just rushing to the end. Is that not the case? Does any% imply glitch-use explicitly?

Any% means it's whatever it takes to beat the game so glitches to skip big portions of the game are fair. 100% definition can vary from game to game it could be getting literally 100% completion rate in the game or just doing everything necessary in order to complete the game legit. Even 100% speed runs would include some glitches though not on the scale of this.
 

Lukemon

Member
Yeah as a fighting game player despite not having issues with most combos in most fighting games, some of these speedruns make me cringe at how precise they have to be lol. It's awesome how good speedrunners can make certain skips look effortless, but sometimes people overlook how much effort it actually takes.

Right? Same for me, love fighting games and can pull the odd 1-frame link out of my ass from time to time, but watching runs where they're trying tricks that have that same 1/60th (or 1/30th) of a second demand but just to save minimal time (and often adding time if failed) is fascinating and exciting. A good couch at a marathon run really helps build understanding of the tougher tricks - runners themselves are usually too busy trying not to fuck these tricks up to really explain them fully as they happen. And some of them are NUTS.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
Got it. Sounds like that category is pretty well-defined as-is, I may just be looking for something explicitly referenced as "glitchless."

That said, I did love those Mario 64 videos that went into insane detail about how to jump through invisible rooms or beat the game with like a half-button press or all this insane glitchy stuff.
 
100% floored and pure respect for this guy. The amount of skill it take to be so pixel perfect for those glitches is crazy. I need to watch more vids.
 

Stopdoor

Member
Speed run glitch discussion is so weird to me, I have trouble imagining how a 'glitchless' run would even go (though it apparently exists I guess), considering glitches can range from completely game breaking to extremely subtle that you'd barely even notice it and have people complain about it. You'd have to define weirdly specific rules that seem like would invite more heated discussion than just embracing what the player can perform through plain inputs.
 

Seronei

Member
I mean, I am also not impressed by speedruns that utilize stuff like this to skip 99% of the game. But that's only because "speedrun" means something specific to me, it means doing something really fast within the game's purposeful limitations.

Now if we just did something as pedantic as rename what this is, I'd be fine with it. Cause it's absolutely still an impressive and highly skill-based thing that's happening here. But it needs to be classified somehow differently. Same way Tool Assisted Speedruns have their own nomenclature. "Glitch-based Speedrun" I dunno, something.

The thing is, this is the only objective way to define it. Anything else you have to speculate what the devs intentions were and then it's a clusterfuck of different opinions on what actually counts as a glitch.

The only limitation is what's possible in the game, because that's the only thing you're certain of.

Speed run glitch discussion is so weird to me, I have trouble imagining how a 'glitchless' run would even go (though it apparently exists I guess), considering glitches can range from completely game breaking to extremely subtle that you'd barely even notice it and have people complain about it. You'd have to define weirdly specific rules that seem like would invite more heated discussion than just embracing what the player can perform through plain inputs.

Exactly. There's a reason glitchless stopped being enforced on speeddemosarchive almost 10 years ago, it's just a huge mess to enforce and you have to have discussions of every little trick found in every game if it's actually a glitch or not.
 

Bluenoser

Member
I did not think my comments would derail this thread this much, nor was it my intention. I clearly misunderstood what was going on and like I said had different expectations about how the speedrun would go down. Did I use harsh words, yes but maybe you all should go back to focusing on the record speed run instead.

https://www.speedrun.com/oot

100% record is 4 hours 15 minutes. Maybe more along the lines of what you were expecting.
 

Revven

Member
Speed run glitch discussion is so weird to me, I have trouble imagining how a 'glitchless' run would even go (though it apparently exists I guess), considering glitches can range from completely game breaking to extremely subtle that you'd barely even notice it and have people complain about it. You'd have to define weirdly specific rules that seem like would invite more heated discussion than just embracing what the player can perform through plain inputs.

This is very true and whenever a glitchless category gets made, there is generally a lot of discussion about what is defined as "glitchless". Even OoT Glitchless isn't without what some people would probably consider a glitch; generally exploits. So, I think one example of this would be the crouch stab taking on the damage from the last attack you used. Some people might consider that a glitch (outside of the community) but it's programmed that way in the game -- so it's not a glitch but rather an exploit because it's how the devs programmed it in the game.
 
Speedruns generally don't interest me and make me think "who cares?" ... Then I watched the video and couldn't stop watching. That shit was pretty impressive.
 

nynt9

Member
Has anything new been discovered since the last WR or are we at optimizations at this point to the extremes

The last WR still had some errors but it got such good RNG that it was still WR, presumably this one has less errors and equally good RNG.
 

mclem

Member
Glitch-based speedruns are always very impressive, but it does bother me a bit that they tend to get most of the press, when I can't help but liken them to running a marathon yet taking a shortcut to skip 26 miles!
 

gngf123

Member
Glitch-based speedruns are always very impressive, but it does bother me a bit that they tend to get most of the press, when I can't help but liken them to running a marathon yet taking a shortcut to skip 26 miles!

Running a marthon and skipping 26 miles removes all the skill from a marathon.

Executing multiple glitches with extremely small time windows in a short space of time does not.
 

trh

Nifty AND saffron-colored!
I think the people that are bothered with the massive skip might enjoy the MST category. You need to get all Medallions, Stones and (Ganon Tower) Trials. It still features glitches of course, but nothing quite as drastic as any%.
 
Glitch-based speedruns are always very impressive, but it does bother me a bit that they tend to get most of the press, when I can't help but liken them to running a marathon yet taking a shortcut to skip 26 miles!

That's because this category isn't a marathon, it's a sprint through the X-Men's Danger Room.
 

graybot

Member
... have you never seen a speedrun before?

I can't really say I have seen one before

I always assumed speed runs had to play the game properly without glitching right to the end

I think I would appreciate them more if done correctly
 

Released

Member
I can't really say I have seen one before

I always assumed speed runs had to play the game properly without glitching right to the end

I think I would appreciate them more if done correctly

And if you learned the ins and outs of what's going on in this speedrun, maybe you'd appreciate this more than it being done "correctly" (assuming you mean glitchless, this is also harder to define than you might initially think). Many of the tricks in the run have a 1 frame window for success. You're not going to encounter something that precise in normal casual gameplay.
 

rekameohs

Banned
Knowing very little about speedruns, are glitch less runs considered MUCH more impressive than glitched?
I think all of them should be impressive in their own ways, especially for a game as popular - and therefore, competitive - as this one.
 

Released

Member
Knowing very little about speedruns, are glitch less runs considered MUCH more impressive than glitched?

No, for a couple of reasons usually.

1) People new to glitches may see them and think they're easy to execute, as if just knowing what to do is a free path to pulling them off, and sometimes that is the case but not usually. There's a reason none of this stuff ever crops up for you playing the game casually. They require specific inputs, positions, angles, etc. Normal gameplay rarely requires anything with that level of precision. It's not uncommon for the hardest section of a speedrun to be a glitch.

2) Deciding what is and isn't a glitch is way more complicated and messy than people new to speedruns tend to think it is. Sure, the glitch in this speedrun where Torje warps from Deku Tree into the endgame is certainly a huge glitch, but when you get into the small things, differentiating becomes very subjective. A good example in OoT and other Zeldas is you can sometimes use bombs to boost Link across gaps he wouldn't ordinarily be able to cross. The game is working as intended, with the explosion physics being able to throw Link. But speedrunners can use that to accomplish unintended things. Glitch or not? It's debatable, and most runners would rather avoid such debate.
 

rekameohs

Banned
Like I said, I know very little about SRs. Didn't know if the community holds one or the other in a higher regard
Well, it's like any community, people have different interests. It's not some hivemind. So some prefer 100%, some prefer low%, some prefer TAS, etc.

But OOT any% is probably one of the most competitive categories.
 

mclem

Member
Running a marthon and skipping 26 miles removes all the skill from a marathon.

Executing multiple glitches with extremely small time windows in a short space of time does not.

Okay, the marathon shortcut requires a high level of parkour skill :)

I don't really mind that this is a thing, and it's absolutely a feat; don't get me wrong on that. It just bothers me a bit that it's the most high-profile of the options, the one that seems to get the lead promotion much of the time.

But no, I'm not being fair; this is still a phenomenal performance, and that absolutely ought to be celebrated.
 
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