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DF Retro: Metal Gear Solid 2 - A Kojima Masterpiece
- Thread starter Theorry
- Start date
God damn John, I think this is my favorite episode yet. The fact that you took the time and energy to give all that background before getting into the technical talk was really appreciated as a huge fan of the game.
I'll never forget how mind-blowing this game was back on release, but after seeing the whole video I'm somehow even more impressed! I've always thought the game looked and performed spectacularly, but the way you went into detail about every element and post processing effect makes me realize I should go back to the game and try to appreciate them in real time myself.
There's so much to say about this game and what's shown in your video, but I'll just say fantastic work, and I'm thrilled for what's next! Also, all that footage of Kojima and his team was surprising, is it all from that MGS2 documentary or something? I'd love to see the whole thing if it's available somewhere.
I'll never forget how mind-blowing this game was back on release, but after seeing the whole video I'm somehow even more impressed! I've always thought the game looked and performed spectacularly, but the way you went into detail about every element and post processing effect makes me realize I should go back to the game and try to appreciate them in real time myself.
There's so much to say about this game and what's shown in your video, but I'll just say fantastic work, and I'm thrilled for what's next! Also, all that footage of Kojima and his team was surprising, is it all from that MGS2 documentary or something? I'd love to see the whole thing if it's available somewhere.
TheGamingBox
Banned
so going off the mgs 2 vita, what ps2 ports to vita were actually better than the original ps2 versions?
NoctisVsStar
Member
Mgs2 the best in the series.
John, I just wanted to let you know my roommate is a huge fan of the game and he really enjoyed your video. I've never played the game, but I respect the heck out of it after seeing the attention to detail it has, and I appreciate knowing which versions to go for when playing it for the first time. Cheers!
Cow Mengde
Banned
Oh good, I was wondering when we would get the next episode. I'll have something to watch during lunch.
sotodefonk
Member
Damn, i remember downloading the trailer, those 103 MB? with my 56 kbps modem, like all night, and was amazed of it.
Then I got to play it like 6 months after release after a friend lend me the ps2 when he went to take vacations. Still was amazed, and pulled a no sleep that night. Great time I had with that.
Then I got to play it like 6 months after release after a friend lend me the ps2 when he went to take vacations. Still was amazed, and pulled a no sleep that night. Great time I had with that.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Visually and such it's always been great, it was panned by in the day cause it just wasn't as good as one and characters were less memorable.
In hindsight and with the direction of the series over time, ends up making two feel better and better
In hindsight and with the direction of the series over time, ends up making two feel better and better
A great video like usual. The only thing missing was any info on the second extended demo with English voice acting that ends shortly after the Vulcan Raven sequence that was available in official magazine demo discs. Not required though as it seemed identical to the release version.
Kojima had a rather striking insight about the internet and the rise of social media.
Its truly the most insightful and Prescient commentary ever realized in a videogame.
Its a really a singular achievement in this regard.
SeanHollister
Neo Member
Such fond memories of that E3 trailer -- watching it night after night, showing it off to friends just to watch their jaws drop...
Between the trailer and the demo, I totally ruined myself for the actual game, though. I was expecting non-stop epic Snake action, and was disappointed to get Raiden instead. Took a while before I could fully appreciate it.
Between the trailer and the demo, I totally ruined myself for the actual game, though. I was expecting non-stop epic Snake action, and was disappointed to get Raiden instead. Took a while before I could fully appreciate it.
PyroPaperPlanes
Member
...
That looks insane for a PS1 game. Hot damn.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Ok, finally got to watch it.
I'm surprised people weren't convinced the graphics were in game at first. They are better than what the best Dreamcast can offer, but they weren't that big of a leap either. It had a lot of great post processing effects the DC can't do, but the character models were low poly as hell. I think Shenmue had better character models than MGS2.
That said, the game did make very clever use of the PS2 hardware to work around the limitation. The reflections were impressive. It also highlights just what a weird machine the PS2 was. Weird and unbalanced.
I'm surprised people weren't convinced the graphics were in game at first. They are better than what the best Dreamcast can offer, but they weren't that big of a leap either. It had a lot of great post processing effects the DC can't do, but the character models were low poly as hell. I think Shenmue had better character models than MGS2.
That said, the game did make very clever use of the PS2 hardware to work around the limitation. The reflections were impressive. It also highlights just what a weird machine the PS2 was. Weird and unbalanced.
Actually, Shenmue and MGS2 are very comparable when it comes to main characters. Both Ryo and Snake have ~4000 triangles. Snake is slightly more complex, but for all intents and purposes, they are about the same.
The NPCs in Shenmue, though, are a lot lower than MGS2 soldiers. Weird as it may seem, MGS2 can even put more characters on-screen at once (the tanker holds, for instance).
I suspect the two games are reasonably comparable from an overall geometry standpoint, though, when taking scenery into account - but obviously MGS2 features better shadows, more lights, runs at 60fps and uses tons of post-processing techniques.
I think they both look great but I think MGS2 holds up better due to its very focused vision. Shenmue is far more ambitious in terms of what it's trying to display (a full city environment).
By keeping the environments in MGS2 narrow in scope and focusing on very specific types of color schemes, the game has a more coherent look that holds up better.
I would say that the two games were similarly ambitious but in very VERY different ways. I love them both, though, so I only like to draw comparisons out of pure fascination.
sixteen-bit
Member
that 30fps is gonna be a disappointment coming off 2
Cow Mengde
Banned
Yeah, part of what makes Shenmue so impressive is that it's open world with outdoors environments, whereas MGS2 was more confined. Obviously it's a design choice and works well for both games.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Persona 4: Golden (minus the re-recorded Chie and Teddie voices I guess)
Odin Sphere: Leifthrashir is very good but that's also present on PS3 and 4.
Final Fantasy X / X-2 HD Remaster - Vita is more prone to FPS hitches but visually its comparable to PS3.
God of War Collection
may be more but these are from the top of my head.
edit: kinda sad that John didn't point out Snake/Raiden kissing the posters of the models when he was pointing out all the unique things about the game
ResidentDante
Member
Is MGS3 upped to 60 on the HD collection?
Ha ha, yeah.Persona 4: Golden (minus the re-recorded Chie and Teddie voices I guess)
Odin Sphere: Leifthrashir is very good but that's also present on PS3 and 4.
Final Fantasy X / X-2 HD Remaster - Vita is more prone to FPS hitches but visually its comparable to PS3.
God of War Collection
may be more but these are from the top of my head.
edit: kinda sad that John didn't point out Snake/Raiden kissing the posters of the models when he was pointing out all the unique things about the game
...but God of War is not at all better on Vita. It's a god awful port with a resolution that is barely improved and a much lower overall frame-rate. It's 20-30fps on Vita while the PS2 originals are 60fps with screen tearing. Bad ports.
Ratchet and Jak are also terrible while Sly Cooper, while not terrible, is dropped from 60fps to 30fps on Vita.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Issue in shenmue was loading I haven't played Mgs2 in a long while to remember that aspect
They are weirdly similar in terms of loading frequency as both games are very segmented but MGS2 is much faster there.
It does.
I think it's easily the best looking PS1 game simply because of how close to the cartoon it looks and how it avoids (or atleast tries to) a lot of PS1's technical issues.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Oh didn't realize that, I should look up more info on it then.
In my case I still have the PS3 hooked up along with my Pro and because I have a not-so-gaming laptop, full HD and 100% accurate emulation is out of the question so I'm happy with the MGS, GOW etc remaster collections on the PS3.
However, both PCSX2 and Dolphin are so well optimized now that even on my i5 ultra low voltage laptop with intel HD 5500 graphics, I am able to play games at 720p at full speeds with performance modifiers/hacks so that's at least one way to preserve my PS2 library in cases where no remasters exist.
Well done on the video! It was awesome and packed with a lot of interesting information.
Like many others, I wasn't too happy with some of the things in MGS2 (granted I was also around 9), but I have since grown to really appreciate the game and think it's easily one of the best MGS games. After having watched the video, I am eager to start up another playthrough.
Like many others, I wasn't too happy with some of the things in MGS2 (granted I was also around 9), but I have since grown to really appreciate the game and think it's easily one of the best MGS games. After having watched the video, I am eager to start up another playthrough.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Yes and it looks great the majority of the time.
However there are some areas, namely the bigger more populated ones, where MGS3 framerate tanks even on PS3.
Give Legacy Collection on PC/PS4/XBO.
I wonder if the frame rate is arbitrary, enabling 144+Hz on PC, or if they simply doubled some timing calculations to convert 30 to 60.
A.Romero
Member
MGS2 is a game that in my opinion will only be truly appreciated in the future.
It blows my mind that Kojima was talking about a lot of stuff that happened afterwards in regards of information control and such.
Truly a master piece. I feel lucky to have been there when that mythic trailer was released and that I was able to experience the game without knowing anything about it.
MGS3, MGS4 and TPP have the better gameplay but concept wise I think MGS2 is untouchable.
It blows my mind that Kojima was talking about a lot of stuff that happened afterwards in regards of information control and such.
Truly a master piece. I feel lucky to have been there when that mythic trailer was released and that I was able to experience the game without knowing anything about it.
MGS3, MGS4 and TPP have the better gameplay but concept wise I think MGS2 is untouchable.
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
Personally my favorite game of all time. Very excited to watch this!
The game was so insightful. It prompted me to start asking questions at a young age. It's one of those games that I think helped shape my path forward, as silly as that might sound.
The game was so insightful. It prompted me to start asking questions at a young age. It's one of those games that I think helped shape my path forward, as silly as that might sound.
Runs better on 360 right?
Yes, the framerate is much more stable on 360, that's the version I own. The controls are annoying tho, the pressure sensitive stuff is replaced with button combinations that sometimes aren't even explained (for example they may still tell you to "press a button sightly" or "harder" when you actually have to use button combinations, at least in the Spanish translation. Maybe this doesn't happen in English)
The port itself is well done, but the controls were adapted as an afterthought.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Great video
This game was on another level if you were there since the beginning. That bait and switch...there won't ever be anything like that again.
This game was on another level if you were there since the beginning. That bait and switch...there won't ever be anything like that again.
Odin Sphere maybe? Lol
In seriousness, I think the major issue that screwed basically every PS2->Vita conversion is that all the Vita ports were based on PS3 HD Remasters, so they were ported up and then back down. I would imagine every PS2 game on Vita would have looked much better than the PS2 version if they were porting straight from PS2 to Vita. Instead of a definitive portable port of a PS2 game, we would get a compromised portable port of a PS3 HD remaster
Justin Bailey
------ ------
Man, this game has really been getting a resurgence lately. I remember it was not looked on fondly after release.
It wasn't? I mean, I know some folks felt burnt on the whole Raiden thing and overabundance of codec cutscenes, but overall it was almost universally held in high regard.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Really though. Any chance of the HD Collection being BC?
Would love to replay 2-3 on my XBOS or even better, Scorpio.
Would love to replay 2-3 on my XBOS or even better, Scorpio.
Nah all the fans and critics hated it. That's why it sold only 7 million copies and got a disappointing 96 score on Metacritic.
Great video. Perhaps it's too negative to bother sharing this thought, but when I see how fondly MGS2 continues to be is looked back on as a game and piece of gaming history I can't help but feel guilt for deriving joy from the warm glow of some kind of latent fanboy schadenfreude.
As someone who often perused the very heart of the hardcore Xbox fanboy community (TeamXbox) back in in the day, I vividly remember the amount of digital ink spilled smugly proclaiming it be a joke of a game compared to objectively superior Splinter Cell. For some more subtly (and not-so-subtly) racist posters, it was exhibit A of the superiority of Western developers over there "J*p" counterparts...
As someone who often perused the very heart of the hardcore Xbox fanboy community (TeamXbox) back in in the day, I vividly remember the amount of digital ink spilled smugly proclaiming it be a joke of a game compared to objectively superior Splinter Cell. For some more subtly (and not-so-subtly) racist posters, it was exhibit A of the superiority of Western developers over there "J*p" counterparts...
too much, mods?
Strangelove77
Member
Awesome video. Crazy that the game was made in 2 years.
Amazing video and love how long and indepth they are. MGS2 was just impossibly good looking for its time.
MGS3 now please. The difference in scope was fascinating since PS2 had to do dense uneven jungle environment for MGS3 with the same sort of attention to detail that NGS2 had and it was fantastic. I absolutely loved the foliage and water in MGS3.
I'd also love to see Sheep Dog n' Wolf for PS1 covered someday but I doubt it'll happen because it's a game that wasn't that much popular plus it's hard to get (I think). It is imo the best looking PS1 game and very closely matches the Looney Tunes cartoons. It was trying to do 2D cartoon look before cel shading shaders were even available.
Check out how that wall goes from appearing like a 3D tunnel but turns out to be a flat 2D wall and this is despite not actually using cel shading (which didn't exist for games then) which is built to give 3D models a flat 2D look.
I LOVED this game, so I'm very interested for a DF retro on this !
On topic, I remembered the hype around this game being insane, the trailer, the demo with ZOE, but in the end, it's really not my favorite MGS game, for me the first one still hold a very a special place in my heart.
That said, I didn't know the trick used for reflections in this game and it blew my mind !
Maxey
Member
MGS2 was one of the very few games to make my jaw drop just from watching the trailer. The only other one I remember giving me that reaction was Gran Turismo 3. Shit looked absolutely real to me back in the day.
However, only many years later I got to play it for the first time through the HD collection on PS3, right after completing MGS1 for the first time too.
Really solid game to this day still, but years of hearing about it and having most surprises spoiled meant I wasn't experiencing the game completely blind, so stuff like Raiden's reveal or the whole mind fuckery at the later half of the game were things I already knew going in.
That said, I still had a grand old time playing it and still enjoyed quite a few things in it that I did not know about beforehand, like the whole Fatman boss fight or Vamp.
However, only many years later I got to play it for the first time through the HD collection on PS3, right after completing MGS1 for the first time too.
Really solid game to this day still, but years of hearing about it and having most surprises spoiled meant I wasn't experiencing the game completely blind, so stuff like Raiden's reveal or the whole mind fuckery at the later half of the game were things I already knew going in.
That said, I still had a grand old time playing it and still enjoyed quite a few things in it that I did not know about beforehand, like the whole Fatman boss fight or Vamp.
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
Amazing video and love how long and indepth they are. MGS2 was just impossibly good looking for its time.
MGS3 now please. The difference in scope was fascinating since PS2 had to do dense uneven jungle environment for MGS3 with the same sort of attention to detail that NGS2 had and it was fantastic. I absolutely loved the foliage and water in MGS3.
I'd also love to see Sheep Dog n' Wolf for PS1 covered someday but I doubt it'll happen because it's a game that wasn't that much popular plus it's hard to get (I think). It is imo the best looking PS1 game and very closely matches the Looney Tunes cartoons. It was trying to do 2D cartoon look before cel shading shaders were even available.
Check out how that wall goes from appearing like a 3D tunnel but turns out to be a flat 2D wall and this is despite not actually using cel shading (which didn't exist for games then) which is built to give 3D models a flat 2D look.
looks really nice, reminds me a bit of megaman legends (PSX) :
ExitPlanetDust
Member
I just had an epiphany. MGS2 is Big Trouble in Little China.
•Whiny (but capable) lead who thinks he's the main character (also named Jack).
•Begins grounded in reality but escalates to supernatural levels of absurdity toward the end.
•Over-the-top henchmen/boss characters (yeah I know the other games have this, but it works in context here).
•Follows Escape from New York/(inspired)MGS1.
Generalizing a bit here, but I can't believe I didn't see it before.
•Whiny (but capable) lead who thinks he's the main character (also named Jack).
•Begins grounded in reality but escalates to supernatural levels of absurdity toward the end.
•Over-the-top henchmen/boss characters (yeah I know the other games have this, but it works in context here).
•Follows Escape from New York/(inspired)MGS1.
Generalizing a bit here, but I can't believe I didn't see it before.
I can see that working!
Yes, this does work and that's what we've done in the past.
However, my backwards compatible PS3 is long dead and the only one we have capable of doing this is at the office in the UK (not with me in Germany) and that's a PAL unit.
Soooo...it would have been possible but difficult to set up especially since we were short staffed last week.
Xbox analysis would have been right out, though, which is the one I really wanted to do.