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XSEED localizer upset Japanese devs removed accidental KKK reference (Kotaku)

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C

Corpekata

Banned
hydrophilic attack said:
Are you saying they make a list of money from games like that?

:lol
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They probably do actually. Stuff that caters to that crowd is typically a frequent reliable cash cow, even if the ceiling for sales is rather low, while a lot of their other stuff besides Falcom's new games doesn't have the stable base.
 
H

hydrophilic attack

Member
Squire said:
They've said before that other than Senran Kagura they're not pursuing titles like it anymore. SK itself is only still on the hook because it sells very reliably.
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Well, that's good, I guess.

And I guess it makes sense to keep SK specifically if it makes them a ton of money like y'all are saying
 
C

Chairmanchuck

Member
hydrophilic attack said:
Are you saying they make a lot of money from games like that?

:lol
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Those "boob" games sell far better than stuff like Xanadu e.g.

What I mean is that cross-financing might be a thing at XSeed. I dont actually know though. For the anime publishing company I worked for before, we used cross-financing to finance titles that we know wont sell that well.
 
O

Oreiller

Member
Dio said:
What in the hell are you talking about? The game isn't filled with memes at all. There's like...one?
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I very well may be misremembering. I remember being taken aback by a reference to the intro of SOTN which was jaring as hell though.
 
S

Supaidaman

Member
This is a weird thing to protest. I would only care for changes if they would change the story or gameplay in some capacity. But a random reference that only Japanese would get? lol wut.
 
A

Alucrid

Banned
Ventara said:
Ys, Legend of Heroes, Popolocrois, Shantae, EDF, and many more. XSEED covers quite a large variety of gaming.
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yeah but there's also the plethora of senran kagura games, akiba's games, onechanbara, etc. i think the quote in the op is pretty clear cut, xseed is ys and senran kagura, legend of heroes and akiba's. if you don't want to appear in one and be associated with the company in that manner, is being associated with the same company but on a different product all that better for you? seems like taking the credit loss and working the job until you can secure a position that you're proud of is the better option for that person in your imagined circumstance.
 
B

BTA

Member
I am legitimately amazed that he found a way to take an even more ridiculous stance on censorship and humor.
 
E

Eumi

Member
Wait so he wants to preserve the original meaning by... not localising the joke?

Am I reading this wrong or is this guy just that much of a self righteous idiot?
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Possibly the most irrelevant change one could complain about.

- ponpo

SolicitorPirate said:
Given the shitty idiots who form a portion of XSEED's target market, I guess it's not a huge surprise shitty idiots work there as well.
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Massive Duck said:
You calling me an asshole because I think some random loc monkey is dumb for caping for a KKK reference that wasn't even the dev's intent?
Click to expand...

XSEED confirmed "shitty idiot loc monkeys"
 
S

SolicitorPirate

Member
Pellegri Testament said:
Yes? Believe it or not fanservice does actually sell if the game has any redeeming qualities beyond the fanservice, which Senran Kagura does.
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As someone who has played basically every mainline Senran Kagura game to completion (only one I didn't complete was the first), I've never agreed with this idea that the Senran Kagura games are anything of worth without the fanservice.

The gameplay is better than most otaku games, but ultimately trite. The characters are nothing but tropes. And the only time I've ever genuinely liked a SR plot is in 2, and that was because it was fun watching how poorly the narrative blended with the game's boogie ninjas

Corpekata said:
They probably do actually. Stuff that caters to that crowd is typically a frequent reliable cash cow, even if the ceiling for sales is rather low, while a lot of their other stuff besides Falcom's new games doesn't have the stable base.
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Agreed. Just look at the amount of DLC that fanservice games like DOA or Senran Kagura have. That shit obviously sells, and likely has huge margins
 
J

jay

Member
GifGafIsTheBestGaf said:
holy shit so that was one of the reasons
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If you are cold-hearted enough to tell little girls that being porn stars is not something they should aspire to, that sexism and objectification exist, if you can break childrens' hearts like that, then you are a different sort of man than he.
 
V

Ventara

Member
L Thammy said:
Yeah, XSEED is a great company and I'm glad we have them. But we're in a weird era now.
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Can't disagree here. Times have been changing with XSEED, and not for the better is what I feel.

Alucrid said:
yeah but there's also the plethora of senran kagura games, akiba's games, onechanbara, etc. i think the quote in the op is pretty clear cut, xseed is ys and senran kagura, legend of heroes and akiba's. if you don't want to appear in one and be associated with the company in that manner, is being associated with the same company but on a different product all that better for you? seems like taking the credit loss and working the job until you can secure a position that you're proud of is the better option for that person in your imagined circumstance.
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BreezyLimbo said:
Same thing-It's the whole team working together on that game. Well he can choose not to work on the game. It'll affect his employment. But if you're working for XSeed, knowing the type of games they translate, you shouldn't be shocked or surprised when they continue localizing those same types of games.

Like....if I start working for Rockstar, and then am put to work on a game with ultra violence and edgy scenarios, I'm not gonna go 'I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS AT ALL'. I knew what I was getting into by working at Rockstar, I should not be shocked nor surprised when they decide to make another Grand Theft Auto.
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Putting aside that XSEED doesn't have a particular type of game they translate, I can't think of a major localizer that hasn't dipped their toes into something questionable, so for someone who wants to work as a translator, they cannot be faulted for choosing to work with a certain company, because no matter which way they go they'll run into it. And at the end of the day, having your name removed from the credits is a simple request that doesn't have to have the localizer overly show their disagreement (like what Tom did here) and can be easily granted by the publisher. I just feel that policy XSEED has is pretty hardline when it doesn't need to be.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Massive Duck said:
The fuck?

Time to replace that dude
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https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20...velous-usa.com/index.php?showtopic=27749&st=0

I don't know if he's the one who slid it in, and I don't think the company was mad, but he sure went to bat for it all using the same I'm taking a big stand self-aggrandizing demeanor and everything.

The most important thing to note here is that were not actually using "trap" as a transphobic slur at all. The character whos being called a "trap" is being accused of pretending to be a girl on the internet in order to curry favor with her male co-posters. She is NOT being accused of being a transgendered woman -- the idea is one of deception, not trans*.

This is important to note, because the word itself is not ALWAYS used as a slur. In fact, in common internet parlance (especially on 4chan), its used for exactly the purpose weve used it: to suggest that someone is not actually female, but pretends to be (and is quite convincing about it). Thus, a "trap": someone who fools men into thinking he is a she, trapping them into flirtatious behavior, including money and favors.

This usage of "trap" became popular when the Guilty Gear character Bridget was revealed to be male (not transgendered, mind you; he is still very much a he), and continues to be used regularly in the more politically-incorrect corners of the internet. 4chan is most notable for using this term in this fashion, which is why we chose to use it ourselves: Pitter is largely a parody of 2ch, which was the Japanese inspiration for 4chans existence. And in the original Japanese, the term "nekama" is used -- a word which combines "net" with "okama," the latter being a Japanese word of often negative connotation typically reserved for highly effeminate homosexual men who crossdress (especially in the entertainment and service industries).

The two terms are surprising similar in meaning and tone -- at least, if you go by the internet meaning of "trap," as opposed to the transphobic slur. And while we did consider other words to use here -- and indeed, have had other words suggested to us -- nothing else felt quite as "authentic." The most common suggestion we received, for example, was to replace "trap" with "G.I.R.L." (an acronym meaning "guy in real life"). The problem with this is, no one on 4chan actually uses G.I.R.L. in conversation. Its hard to type, for one thing, and if you leave out the periods, you just get "girl" or "GIRL," neither of which convey any meaning other than "young female" (or, in the latter case, "YOUNG FEMALE").

And authenticity is key to this games experience. Pitter HAS to feel like an actual internet message board, or else the immersion is completely lost. The posters on Pitter all represent stereotypical 2ch/4chan tropes: the super-mean guy who always wants to start something (and who uses a female avatar and username himself), the girl who makes a point of ALWAYS saying shes a girl, the guy who cant type worth a damn, the guy who role-plays every single thing he says, etc. Theyre all meant to represent "people you might interact with on the internet," and thanks to the tremendous translation and editing that went into their lines (not self-aggrandizing here, as I only personally worked on the main scenario and some of the other system text), they sound the part to a T.

And unfortunately, people on the internet are not always kind. Especially when their entire identity centers around being a jerk to everyone in order to feel better about themselves.

So no, I dont believe any word other than "trap" would capture both the meaning AND the tone of whats being said in the Japanese. But that then raises the question: does it need to?

This is where Im sure Ill lose a lot of people, but in my opinion, yes, yes it does. Akibas Trip, for all the irreverence and political incorrectness and silliness and stupidness, is a social satire at its core. It presents itself as a snapshot of modern Akiba culture, both good and bad -- and those who say "the whole game was so lighthearted, and then all of a sudden there was a slur out of nowhere" probably hadnt been talking to a lot of NPCs, as this title can be pretty scathing and offensive. Mixed in with all its silliness youll find casual xenophobia, misogyny, misandry, sexism and more, and its all played completely straight and may leave you feeling a little aghast and uncomfortable at times.

But thats the subtle beauty of Akibas Trip. Its painting a picture of Akihabara thats flattering in parts, but disturbing in others... and its not outright saying "this is good and this is bad," but its taking everything to such over-the-top levels that players are going to naturally (if subconsciously) get the message that some of what theyre seeing and reading is just... really awful. Its humanity laid bare at its pettiest and most base, in many cases... and yet youre defending the rights of people to BE petty and base, because you cant have the good without the bad. You cant have a place as magical as Akihabara without also accepting that its NOT a utopia -- people WILL misbehave, and eventually theyll get their comeuppance... but it may not be right away, and you may not be around to see it. But you still KNOW its wrong, and the game isnt suggesting otherwise in any way. When Eriko tells another user on Pitter, "Shut up, you g*ddamned tr*p," youre supposed to be like, WHOA. Not cool. Not cool at all. That is the appropriate reaction, and nothing in the game indicates that its acceptable or right to speak to other people in that manner.

Should we have used that word in the game? I believe so. Akibas Trip is history -- its quite literally a moment in time, captured in the medium of video game. Painting over the potentially hurtful elements of the game would be whitewashing history -- it would be like painting out the swastikas from early 1940s portraiture, or censoring every instance of the N-word in Django Unchained.

In fact, its even more innocent than that since the particular version of "trap" were using is not intended as the transphobic slur, but as the still commonly-used internet slang word. So to use a different simile, this would be like creating a game set in the 19th century, in which a woman is sent out to gather firewood and is referred to by her peers as a "faggot-gatherer." Historically, this would be an accurate use of another controversial word in its original form, before it ever became a slur -- and it would likely produce just as much controversy on Twitter as our use of "trap" did in Akibas Trip, despite our intent being only to represent a particular period and subject matter as true-to-life as possible.

Ultimately, we never, ever meant any offense whatsoever, and never even considered the fact that people might misinterpret our usage of the word "trap" until the controversy began this past weekend. We have since discussed what to do about this, and our decision was... not to do anything. We used what we felt to be the best word for the situation, and we maintain that to be true. And if one believes, as I do, that video games are a valid form of artistic expression (even games bearing the subtitle "Undead and Undressed"), we owe it to the industry not to back down on this. It may be "just one word," but next game, maybe itll be two. And then the game after that, maybe itll be a whole monologue
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Trojita

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Squire said:
They've said before that other than Senran Kagura they're not pursuing titles like it anymore. SK itself is only still on the hook because it sells very reliably.
Click to expand...

Shame. I kind of wanted to play that oppai rogue like dungeon crawler.

Though I have no idea if it is any good.
 
SinCityAssassin

SinCityAssassin

Member
The best thing about this is Lipschultz defended the joke as a shock value KKK joke, ironically REINTERPRETING THE ORIGINAL INTENT of the developers, who literally did not mean it to come across that way. So in defending the integrity of the game's artistic value, he essentially tried to warp the game's artistic value.
 
H

hydrophilic attack

Member
Tinfoilhatsron said:
D'aww, I think it's adorable you want to play detective GAF so bad :) Don't worry champ, I'm sure you'll make it someday.


Hmm. I wonder who he voted for...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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I'm not trying to be a detective. You'll notice that in the post I linked he was talking about a post that was mine. I just remembered the interaction. So it's not that I'm a detective. I'm just exceptional at holding a grudge
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Normally I am against changes in localisation but it this case it was the localiser that meant to make a change. It is obvious that was not the author's original intent and they even expressed that desire. This is misheard lyrics level of cringe.
 
S

Squire

Banned
I really think some of you guys are overthinking the credit denial. I don't think it's ideological on XSEEDs part, I think it's taking Tom's own idealism and using it against him in a way that'll ultimately get him out of people's hair while making use of whatever talent he possesses until that time arrives.

Again, I'd bet it's just shrewd, smart business.
 
N

Nachos

Member
"No, no, no. You don't get it – you clearly meant to be a shithead. Not wanting to be a monster undermines your every artistic merit."
 
D

Dio

Banned
excelsiorlef said:
https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20...velous-usa.com/index.php?showtopic=27749&st=0

I don't think he slid it in, and I don't think the company was mad, but he sure went to bat for it all.
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This one is fine, honestly. The slur was meant to be hurtful and fit the intent of the sentence exactly, and was the perfect way to transfer '2chan humor' to '4chan humor.'

The KKK thing wasn't even the original intent of Acquire so this entire furor over THAT is fucking stupid, and I think Tom is stupid for letting this be his hill to die on because of that.

It also is hilarious how many people are posting about how he's a right wing Trump supporter because of this.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
O

Orayn

Member
I personally felt "KKK witches" was pretty funny for its shock value, but when I mentioned it to my coworkers, they... were not as amused.
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I believe "edgelord" is an appropriate term for someone who thinks this is great and likes it so much that they make it their hill to die on even after the creators say it was unintentional.

Jesus H. Christ, Tom. I hope you're ideologically consistent any never play anything else where localization has influenced the creators, like 8-4's awesome work on Metal Gear Rising.
 
L

L Thammy

Member
Pyrrhus said:
Is "hill to die on" the only metaphor we have to fall back on in these situations?
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Orayn said:
I believe "edgelord" is an appropriate term for someone who thinks this is great and likes it so much that they make it their hill to die on even after the creators say it was unintentional.

Jesus H. Christ, Tom.
Click to expand...

Is this really the edge you choose to lord on?


...Is this really the katana you choose to sudoku on?
 
Trojita

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
To reference this in anime terms: The developer meant for this to be a WacDonald's joke. The localizer thought it was funny to see KKK in the game for some reason. Localizer decides to commit Sudoku to keep an unintended reference that only they found amusing.
 
S

Squire

Banned
Dio said:
This one is fine, honestly. The slur was meant to be hurtful and fit the intent of the sentence exactly, and was the perfect way to transfer '2chan humor' to '4chan humor.'

The KKK thing wasn't even the original intent of Acquire so this entire furor over THAT is fucking stupid, and I think Tom is stupid for letting this be his hill to die on because of that.

It also is hilarious how many people are posting about how he's a right wing Trump supporter because of this.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
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This might blow your mind, but voting progressively and being an asshole on one or even many avenues aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

It doesn't matter who he voted for.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Squire said:
This might blow your mind, but voting progressively and being an asshole on one or even many avenues aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

It doesn't matter who he voted for.
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Think that poster agrees, some other people in here were the ones saying "bet he's a Trumpster"
 
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