So you haven't read his Silver Surfer run?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Atlantic: 'The Real Reasons for Marvel Comics Woes'
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
So you haven't read his Silver Surfer run?
The Broken Ska Record
Member
That's true. I didn't mean trades as a way to reinvigorate Marvel Comics, but a way to get several issues worth of content easily.
It's all odd because, by all accounts, his Sam Wilson run was really well done and appeared to be cognizant of race dynamics and the effects of prejudice intersecting with varying degrees of societal power.
85% of the reason comic sales are what they are is they stopped doing that 20 years ago.
Yeah Sam Wilson is woke as fuck, maybe it is ghost written?
BoogieWoogie
Banned
You mean his Dr Who run?
I noped out when he became a werewolf, but I certainly heard good things about it.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
The shady nightclub thing? Read some stuff about that before.
Fancyarcher
Member
This is a problem with modern comics in general, everything is about big events and what-have you, and as print slowly dies it's not exactly gonna any better.
They'll never drop the price though because of printing pages and money. Inflation has made comics way more expensive. D.C. had to drop 2 pages just to get 2.99 for example.
They'll never drop the price though because of printing pages and money. Inflation has made comics way more expensive. D.C. had to drop 2 pages just to get 2.99 for example.
comparing a novel to a comic is literally apples to oranges. they require completely different skills and effort to produce. not saying one is harder or easier than the other but the cost is what it is because of the money put into it. they don't just arbitrarily pick a number.
LordRaptor
Member
There's lots of things comics used to do that made it easier to 'onboard' new readers and establish continuity - like editor notes to prior events when referenced, or calling out character names and abilities, and its pretty easy to gloss over that stuff as a longterm reader, but indispensable to a newby
Valtýr;237910272 said:
Comics cost what they cost because there's not that many people buying them anymore, and the ones that do are 'collectors' who want 'prestige' format printing.
Mix Master
Member
Maybe folks are just getting fatigued of all superhero stuff in general comics, movies etc.
That's super weird considering the Americops storyline.
MadLaughter
Member
Tom Brevoort still at Marvel? He used to answer a shit-ton of questions on Tumblr or whatever preceded it, but almost all of them were the most condescending, petty bullshit.
The return of cap wolf was terrible, but it actually gets interesting again a few months after that ended.
Hell yeah!
THE BUBBLE WILL BURST.
Slott isn't that bad. I genuinely enjoy his Spider-Man stuff.
It's been done better before, but the book seriously benefits from having had a consistent writer for several years.
Also, Marvel, stop your fuckery with the X-Men. I get you're trying to devalue the property so that it's worthless and Fox have to hand the film rights back but let's understand a few things here;
Millions of people watch the X-Men movies
Thousands of people read comics
No matter how much you try to make the X-Men unbearable, it isn't going to have any effect on the cinema audience. Moviegoers don't care about what's going on in your comics. It's invisible to them. The only thing you hurt by releasing shitty comics is the sales of your own comics. The only thing you hurt by not licensing X-Men merchandise is your own revenue stream.
Millions of people watch the X-Men movies
Thousands of people read comics
No matter how much you try to make the X-Men unbearable, it isn't going to have any effect on the cinema audience. Moviegoers don't care about what's going on in your comics. It's invisible to them. The only thing you hurt by releasing shitty comics is the sales of your own comics. The only thing you hurt by not licensing X-Men merchandise is your own revenue stream.
I lent Nick Spencer money for a box of cartons of macaroni and cheese before he blew up. Never saw a dime. 
(That really did happen, but I'm not actually upset about it - he was a pleasant person to interact with online otherwise, so perhaps a wire got crossed or something.)
Regarding Dan Slott, I just want to mention that I met Dan Slott once, maybe 10 or so years ago, and it was really memorable. This was at a small comicon in NYC. He jubilantly spoke about a previous gig he'd had writing for DC, and a JLA story he'd written for them that wasn't published. Evidently he goes into a vast amount of detail in his scripts, and he effusively told us about the script for this story when we were standing at his table. He proceeded to reenact the entire story for us, including dedicated voices for Superman, Wonder Woman, and the forest animals they were teaming up with. All of the voices he did were amazing and the sheer excitement and jubilation he brought to telling this story showed his passion for the medium. I haven't read comics in several years now, but I do think no matter how firmly his position on a story is different from anyone else's, his is the kind of voice and creative force the comics or any artistic industry benefits greatly from. (With that said, if his behavior has become unpleasant online, I don't really follow comics so I wouldn't know about this, so I'd defer to your collective judgment about this.)
(That really did happen, but I'm not actually upset about it - he was a pleasant person to interact with online otherwise, so perhaps a wire got crossed or something.)
Regarding Dan Slott, I just want to mention that I met Dan Slott once, maybe 10 or so years ago, and it was really memorable. This was at a small comicon in NYC. He jubilantly spoke about a previous gig he'd had writing for DC, and a JLA story he'd written for them that wasn't published. Evidently he goes into a vast amount of detail in his scripts, and he effusively told us about the script for this story when we were standing at his table. He proceeded to reenact the entire story for us, including dedicated voices for Superman, Wonder Woman, and the forest animals they were teaming up with. All of the voices he did were amazing and the sheer excitement and jubilation he brought to telling this story showed his passion for the medium. I haven't read comics in several years now, but I do think no matter how firmly his position on a story is different from anyone else's, his is the kind of voice and creative force the comics or any artistic industry benefits greatly from. (With that said, if his behavior has become unpleasant online, I don't really follow comics so I wouldn't know about this, so I'd defer to your collective judgment about this.)
Between Marvel and ComiXolgy Unlimited + Hoopla, my comic buying has completely gone into the shitter. I was buying a decent amount of Marvel Print a few years ago when Star Wars launched, but once I got into digital comics, I realized how much money I was spending each month on issues that I read and then stuffed into a box somewhere anyway (I'm not a collector).
Now the only comics I really buy are from the smaller labels, and even those I tend to wait for sales. Since I upgraded to a 12.9 iPad Pro last month, I never see myself going to print again, and unless Marvel starts lowering prices, there's no reason for me not to just wait 6 months and read it on Unlimited. $4-$5 an issue for digital content is a bit steep. I'd love a DC unlimited but a lot of their stuff is available on Hoopla so it's not too much of an issue.
Now the only comics I really buy are from the smaller labels, and even those I tend to wait for sales. Since I upgraded to a 12.9 iPad Pro last month, I never see myself going to print again, and unless Marvel starts lowering prices, there's no reason for me not to just wait 6 months and read it on Unlimited. $4-$5 an issue for digital content is a bit steep. I'd love a DC unlimited but a lot of their stuff is available on Hoopla so it's not too much of an issue.
They use to do that on the first page, don't know why they stopped.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Nah. Marvel's movies are still killing it at the box-office and DC's comics are selling better than they have in years. The issue here is Marvel's extremely poor management of their comic line in recent years.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Who? Were those the Dr Doom side characters?I miss when the Fantastic Four had a book
I miss when the Fantastic Four had a book
I miss 4, it was a miniseries where the government came in and got Reed for tax evision. The FF was broke and had to live off Ben Grimm(he's rich) money. Human Torch got an right real quick.
slightconfuse
Banned
Doesn't help that a lot of talent left do thier own thing at image
Sectorseven
Member
Not paying $4 + tax for five minutes of content.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
Wasn't that the book they wanted to replace Waid's run with? What a shitstorm that was.
CharminUltra
Member
The neverending events and crossovers bs is what did it for me, and that's before getting into the shitty personalities.
slightconfuse
Banned
I miss when the Fantastic Four had a book
Most fantastic four runs are bad. It's a books that ether good or bad. Not a lot of middle ground
ScatheZombie
Member
Mostly accurate but a couple of the arguments feel too focused on things only hardcore fans care about - like the writers publicly being douchebags to fans at conventions.
But yeah, working in a comic shop, here are the problems we see both existing and new readers have:
1) There are currently 7 or 8 different versions of Spider-man running concurrently together. We have people come in and ask for Spider-man and we literally have to say "Which one?" Non-readers are completely put off by that. They expect one or two different Spider-mans, at most - not 7 alternate versions, most of which have absolutely no crossover between them and are often at direct odds with each other. And this happens with nearly all of the major characters. There's like 15 different Bat-Family comics running right now. A dozen Supermans. Hell, there's three different GotG teams, FFS. And whatever the hell X-Men is doing, aside from the antisemitism of course. So... they go to the trades section and pick out a completed series instead of getting the latest issue.
2) Diamond is an asshole distributor. It's nearly fucking impossible to get restocks on issues more than 2-3 weeks old. And their shipping rates are ridiculous and cut margins. Even then, every shipment has a half-dozen damaged singles that they then charge you again to re-ship, sometimes not arriving for weeks or months. Those two things mean we only stock exactly what we think we can sell. And when it sells out, that's it. If someone comes into the shop and sees Spider-man #8 on the new release section and wants to back-purchase #1-7, they are shit out of luck unless we miraculously still have copies from the original orders. So, again, off to the trades they go.
3) Too many storylines no one asked for and too many covers that still depict comics as immature, sexist garbage. We literally have parents and children come into the shop and take a look at some of the new release covers and walk out. Like that one where Harley Quinn is literally ripping off her shirt and her larger-than-her-head tits are popping out the top of a bullet-proof corset. Or that one where Batgirl looks like she's about to blow the Penguin. Or the one where Lex Luthor is trying to rape new Superman. Or the one where Nightwing is literally the villain's dick. This shit happens every god damn week. With major characters. That's not even counting all the other crazy one-offs we get from lesser known publishers and comics. Even when people get past that, you then have story arcs that no one is interested in. With the success of the MCU and the relative popularity of the DCCU, everyone and their grandmother are looking for comics related to the movies - if even in the slightest. Well, there really aren't any. And then they ask what this hero is doing in this comic and we're like... "Oh, yeah, Captain America is in Hydra now." and they either scoff and walk out of the store or... go pick up one of the trades that are actually relevant to the current popular non-comic stories.
It's not really just Marvel either. We've had way more cancelled subscriptions than new ones in the past 6+ months. And I mean way, way more. Marvel is just the one taking the biggest hit - but really, no one is making a product that appeals to anyone but their most devoted fans. For every new release, new run, or new take on a character that generates the slightest bit of traction outside of staple readership, they make a dozen missteps that drive those very same readers back away from the medium.
But yeah, working in a comic shop, here are the problems we see both existing and new readers have:
1) There are currently 7 or 8 different versions of Spider-man running concurrently together. We have people come in and ask for Spider-man and we literally have to say "Which one?" Non-readers are completely put off by that. They expect one or two different Spider-mans, at most - not 7 alternate versions, most of which have absolutely no crossover between them and are often at direct odds with each other. And this happens with nearly all of the major characters. There's like 15 different Bat-Family comics running right now. A dozen Supermans. Hell, there's three different GotG teams, FFS. And whatever the hell X-Men is doing, aside from the antisemitism of course. So... they go to the trades section and pick out a completed series instead of getting the latest issue.
2) Diamond is an asshole distributor. It's nearly fucking impossible to get restocks on issues more than 2-3 weeks old. And their shipping rates are ridiculous and cut margins. Even then, every shipment has a half-dozen damaged singles that they then charge you again to re-ship, sometimes not arriving for weeks or months. Those two things mean we only stock exactly what we think we can sell. And when it sells out, that's it. If someone comes into the shop and sees Spider-man #8 on the new release section and wants to back-purchase #1-7, they are shit out of luck unless we miraculously still have copies from the original orders. So, again, off to the trades they go.
3) Too many storylines no one asked for and too many covers that still depict comics as immature, sexist garbage. We literally have parents and children come into the shop and take a look at some of the new release covers and walk out. Like that one where Harley Quinn is literally ripping off her shirt and her larger-than-her-head tits are popping out the top of a bullet-proof corset. Or that one where Batgirl looks like she's about to blow the Penguin. Or the one where Lex Luthor is trying to rape new Superman. Or the one where Nightwing is literally the villain's dick. This shit happens every god damn week. With major characters. That's not even counting all the other crazy one-offs we get from lesser known publishers and comics. Even when people get past that, you then have story arcs that no one is interested in. With the success of the MCU and the relative popularity of the DCCU, everyone and their grandmother are looking for comics related to the movies - if even in the slightest. Well, there really aren't any. And then they ask what this hero is doing in this comic and we're like... "Oh, yeah, Captain America is in Hydra now." and they either scoff and walk out of the store or... go pick up one of the trades that are actually relevant to the current popular non-comic stories.
It's not really just Marvel either. We've had way more cancelled subscriptions than new ones in the past 6+ months. And I mean way, way more. Marvel is just the one taking the biggest hit - but really, no one is making a product that appeals to anyone but their most devoted fans. For every new release, new run, or new take on a character that generates the slightest bit of traction outside of staple readership, they make a dozen missteps that drive those very same readers back away from the medium.
LordRaptor
Member
I mean, for anyone who hasn't read Jim Shooters storytelling rant, its really eye-opening and for all the hate he got the dude knew what the hell he was doing and has proven it over and over.
PSlayer
Member
If this is the problem (which basically means that the audience doesn't want all that diversity) then what is the solution? keep wasting money for years (maybe decades) until there is one or two new "whales" that they can rely on besides the "nerds"? That assuming the investment will work in the long run.
Honestly i don't believe comic books have the potential to become a mainstream medium anymore. They may be a good source material for other mainstream mediums like movies and games but as an medium it's forever locked in a niche surviving thanks to other mediums.
Yep, they should have kept it, it's own thing. It was already Marvel Knights
I feel like I'm gonna lose my mind getting invested into another series that only lasts 9 goddamn issues.
Yep it's so annoying. Even worse cause some stuff doesn't get a relaunch. Like Power Man and Iron Fist
But that's okay since Captain Marvel is getting another to fix it's terribad sales. Maybe it'll even work one day!Also Marvel needs to teach their writers PR skills about twitter, the article touches on it, but man seeing Nick Spencer act like a baby about DC Rebirth was just sad stuff.
IndoAssassin
Banned
I don't get this there is currently 10 X-books, 15 if you count Deadpool and UA as an X-book. With more to be announced. X-fans need to get over it now.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Ain't nothing more to be said really. Marvel dug their own hole here. People generally reacted positively to the diversity push, Ms. Marvel found success despite all the bullshit they've been doing.
I can't speak on any specific instances, and I'm not saying the writers aren't at fault. But fanboys can be absolute jerks on social media like twitter. I don't think it's fair to expect writers to be acting professional 24/7 while people are free to attack them.
However, I'm not fully away of the whole situation. Like that whole writer threatened to punch a critic situation. Sounds extreme.
However, I'm not fully away of the whole situation. Like that whole writer threatened to punch a critic situation. Sounds extreme.
I also hate all those crossovers and stuff between books. For example, I wanted to read Guardians of the Galaxy comics after seeing the movie. I picked up Gotg v2 1 - 25. I started reading and was immediately confused because it started in the middle of a story. I found out I first had the read Drax the destroyer 1-4, then annihilation, then annihilation conquest and then I could start with guardians. The annihilation books where good btw, but its not very friendly for newcomers.
And don't even get me started about when I wanted to read all the x-men comics in order. With x-men, dazzler, new mutants, x-force etc all crisscrossing through eachother it's very hard to keep track off as a newcomer. Stuff like this almost turned me off reading and my guess is this also applies to a lot of people.
And don't even get me started about when I wanted to read all the x-men comics in order. With x-men, dazzler, new mutants, x-force etc all crisscrossing through eachother it's very hard to keep track off as a newcomer. Stuff like this almost turned me off reading and my guess is this also applies to a lot of people.
JimiNutz
Banned
Do they release everything as trades though? I thought they didn't and you usually have to wait ages after the comics originally came out?
I'm talking about completely scrapping the monthly issues and ONLY releasing trades. Who actually buys monthly comics anyway? Surely very very few people?
Yeah, it's a perfectly reasonable argument.
The comic industry is the snake eating its own tail. New readers aren't courted; they're almost actively discouraged. Even the new, rebooted Archie comic series (which is very good in a lot of ways) is dense and impenetrable for young kids.
The endless chasing of modest sales boosts has done comics (and the article is Marvel specific, but can easily be applied to most other publishers) no good. And, yes, there's been a terrible devaluing of stability in terms of comic book runs -- and the quality of comic book art as well.
The writer who threatened to punch the critic is Mark Waid. I mention this only because he's the one doing the Archie reboot.
(I interviewed Waid a bunch of times for Wizard: The Comics Magazine when it was a going concern, and he was always very pleasant and cordial. But I imagine dealing with comic fans can be very tough sometimes.)
Imagine being threatened by the guy who writes Archie.
The comic industry is the snake eating its own tail. New readers aren't courted; they're almost actively discouraged. Even the new, rebooted Archie comic series (which is very good in a lot of ways) is dense and impenetrable for young kids.
The endless chasing of modest sales boosts has done comics (and the article is Marvel specific, but can easily be applied to most other publishers) no good. And, yes, there's been a terrible devaluing of stability in terms of comic book runs -- and the quality of comic book art as well.
The writer who threatened to punch the critic is Mark Waid. I mention this only because he's the one doing the Archie reboot.
(I interviewed Waid a bunch of times for Wizard: The Comics Magazine when it was a going concern, and he was always very pleasant and cordial. But I imagine dealing with comic fans can be very tough sometimes.)
Imagine being threatened by the guy who writes Archie.
LordRaptor
Member
Outside of broader issues with print media in general, which comics are inexorably linked to and whatever solution evolves will be attached to, of course comics could be a mainstream medium - Newspapers still do the Sunday Funnies, which was the format that Will Eisners The Spirit is best known in, and the issues faced by modern comics aren't particularly worse than they were in the 50s when all sorts of publishers were going belly-up
my name is ed
Banned
I recommend giving DC a look tbh. I've favored Marvel for most of my capes comics reading but DC has a lot of solid titles right now.
Of course, Marvel has plenty of good titles but it seems to be a few rogue editors doing it right versus DC where things are going pretty well right now.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
It's a business. Like any other business, these writers are professionals and should be expected to act as such. I'm not saying that it's right for them to be attacked at all, but actively searching for people criticizing them or going on racist tirades is something that should be discouraged, which Marvel seemingly never does.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
My god that segment about constant relaunching and recycling titles for actual different series is ridiculous. Manga might have crazy nonsense storylines but at least their shit just runs from 1-300 or whatever so newcomers know exactly where to start.
The article is right about a lot of things but one thing stood out to me, despite how mainstream comic book stuff has become the barrier to entry is crazy without knowing someone that can help you out.
No shit issue #1s sell more, it's a lot easier to get into a new series than something that's been running across multiple issues of multiple series. Hell if you look at death of spider man arc in ultimate marvel the actual arc has lead ins all the way from other series and off shoots.
The article is right about a lot of things but one thing stood out to me, despite how mainstream comic book stuff has become the barrier to entry is crazy without knowing someone that can help you out.
No shit issue #1s sell more, it's a lot easier to get into a new series than something that's been running across multiple issues of multiple series. Hell if you look at death of spider man arc in ultimate marvel the actual arc has lead ins all the way from other series and off shoots.
broncobuster
Banned
Not yet. I'll check it out on MU.