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[Liabe Brave]

And because without them the animation wouldn't look as good and would likely look a lot more like a video game despite the high fidelity, which has occurred in films before.

You have failed to understand my point. "Wouldn't look as good" is relative, not absolute. You are treating one particular approach as if it's the only valid approach, and any deviation from it is a failure. This is fundamentally anti-art and anti-human, and I'm surprised you're not sensitive to that. You sound like 19th-century art critics propounding the unassailable perfection of Roman sculpture, deriding any expression outside those bounds.

Game animation literally works in the way of sacrifices having to be made due to constantly having to factor in player input. However, a lot of studios come up with ways around this. Whether it's creating an absurdly large library of animations that don't directly impede on player input, (Batman AK and ACU), or creating pitch perfect animation, (Inside), there's a lot of ways that improvements can be made based on those nuances already being seen in other games.

Here's your error made plain. These are not improvements, they are just changes. They may be valid in one context and not in another. There is no perfect art.

Neither are lacking in that regard.

And yet they're utterly different and totally incompatible. If you accept that animation can be successful yet disparate in that case, why are you so hellbent on homogenizing human motion? The end state of the regimen you suggest is a single library of movements used by all studios, with no human input allowed because it would violate the accuracy.

The game literally has some of the best visuals in the open world genre, so having overtly video gamey animation, (kinda like the very gamey QTE prompts), sorta directly goes against that goal.

The "realism" in this game can be entirely different from the "realism" of Arkham Knight, which is different from the "realism" of Uncharted, The Witcher etc. etc. Game makers have always felt free to explore nuance in movement, visuals, and feel under that vague "realist" rubric. What's gained by disallowing this?

 

[Equanimity]

You needing people to constantly reinforce that the game looks good smacks of fanboyism and insecurity.

5) You suck at being able to tell is someone's arguing in good faith then.

Your opinion about that is both moronic and irrelevant to this game.

7) Some opinions are asinine and off-topic. I really try to avoid engaging moronic diatribes in threads, but your stupidity needs calling out.

Consider instead that no one is stopping you from ignoring on-topic posts or discussion if they don't interest you. No one is forcing you to show your ass about how paranoid you are when it comes to vg discussion.

Make a thread about him while you're at it.

You don't need to be a dick about it. Come back to me when you're ready and able for a civilised discussion.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I get the concept, just looks like the execution is a bit off.



Yes, exactly, timing is a bit off/late, so it looks like he's shooting behind himself.

And yes, functionality is key, so as I mentioned earlier, it's a very nitpicky "issue". I'll try to drop it/ignore it

You're good—they're already tweaking stuff based on fan reaction and I want Insomniac to make the game as good as possible down the the smallest detail. They clearly want to as well

You don't need to be a dick about it. Come back to me when you're ready and able for a civilised discussion.

Take your own advice. Going after someone personally, no matter how polite you think you sound while doing so, still counts as being a dick.

 

[OldRoutes]

Yo that's Bryan from EGM and 1UP!

That's awesome that he's a creative director now!

 

[WordsintheWater]

looks like MJ will be Peter's love interest.

Damn nice spot, that's awesome. I hope they do great with the story for this game, I feel like we've never gotten a proper Spider-Man story in the games before. I want this game to be what Arkham was for Batman.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You have failed to understand my point. "Wouldn't look as good" is relative, not absolute. You are treating one particular approach as if it's the only valid approach, and any deviation from it is a failure. This is fundamentally anti-art and anti-human, and I'm surprised you're not sensitive to that. You sound like 19th-century art critics propounding the unassailable perfection of Roman sculpture, deriding any expression outside those bounds.

The absence of less animation tends to result in a less fluid animation. That's not really a subjective thing. See Berserk vs. something like TCW.

Here's your error made plain. These are not improvements, they are just changes. They may be valid in one context and not in another. There is no perfect art.

I don't see how they wouldn't be valid in this context.

And yet they're utterly different and totally incompatible. If you accept that animation can be successful yet disparate in that case, why are you so hellbent on homogenizing human motion?

It wouldn't even be homogenization. As making a character appear slightly more like he isn't a set of animations playing back but rather an actual character moving smoothly would work towards the ever increasing quality standard for character anim in the medium itself. Especially the open world genre as this gen has seen a huge improvement in that regard in comparison to last gen because that model became the most profitable.

B]The end state of the regimen you suggest is a single library of movements used by all studios, with no human input allowed because it would violate the accuracy.[/B]The "realism" in this game can be entirely different from the "realism" of Arkham Knight, which is different from the "realism" of Uncharted, The Witcher etc. etc. Game makers have always felt free to explore nuance in movement, visuals, and feel under that vague "realist" rubric. What's gained by disallowing this?

I can't even tell what the hell the bolded is talking about because it's so far removed from what i've been saying ITT that i'm near flabbergasted at it's ridiculousness. Especially considering how many times I specifically noted improvements that are specific nuances that apply to Spiderman.

Like just the little nuance of of easing into an idle pose adds a lot imho, so when Spiderman does something this. Instead of stopping on a dime, they include a small transition like this. He's sticky so his feet stop him but his upper body still reacts to that sudden loss in momentum. That sort of stuff is pretty common place at this point in triple A games, regardless of character and wouldn't sacrifice playability compared to having to wait for Max to get up after bullet time in Max Payne 3 or literally any action in GTAV. THAT'S the point where animation is constantly a hindrance.

That's straight up taken right out of ASM2 and is actually my favorite moment.

actually now that I think about it, I hope the add this little detail that always made the films look amazing, the subtle swaying of the arms caused by free falling:

^
Glorious, although not sure if feasible with a physics based web slinging system that prioritizes input over animation priority.

I'm so mad about how almost everything about the second film is bad because the first one had genuinely good ideas. Speaking of Homecoming Spiderman, I was actually watching a compilation of all his scenes in Civil War, (better be an option for that costume btw), another good way to showcase him reacting to a landing

over

^ the above is already halfway there truth be told

Explain how any one of these suggestions is in anyway shape or form detrimental to the game? Or would lead to "homogenization."

 

[rashbeep]

Really weird that people take issue with constructive criticism

 

[BigEmil]

Insomniac don't listen to GAF please you'll ruin it if you do, you do you as always!


Your company knows better and much more experienced in this field than some random people on GAF.

 

[Equanimity]

Take your own advice.

I can certainly verify that.

Going after someone personally,

Calling someone disingenuous for coming across disingenuous? I even suggested that I might be wrong.

no matter how polite you think you sound while doing so, still counts as being a dick.

You're just making up stuff as you go along.

I'm not going to waste more of my time with you.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Insomniac don't listen to GAF please you'll ruin it if you do, you do you!

Of devs did listen, we'd have a PC port of Lost Legacy coming tho

Really weird that people take issue with constructive criticism

Emotional investment can blind people to reason.

 

[Hawk269]

Just watched the video and it looks great. The ONLY funky thing is that scene where Spider-Man is running up the building at FLASH speed. That is a bit over the top and needs to be fixed. Everything else looks proper except for that wall running portion.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Just watched the video and it looks great. The ONLY funky thing is that scene where Spider-Man is running up the building at FLASH speed. That is a bit over the top and needs to be fixed. Everything else looks proper except for that wall running portion.

The speed at which it plays out is a bit much, but if it were slower, it could get tedious when trying to chase after something like the helicopter from the demo.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Insomniac don't listen to GAF please you'll ruin it if you do, you do you as always!

Explain with as little vagueness as possible how any of the above would even remotely ruin the game? I'd genuinely love to hear that being argued. Also I'm not sure if this needs to be said, but you're also on GAF, you're basically asking them to ignore you as well. This is even more comical considering that they've already changed some stuff in the game as a result of feedback.

Your company knows better and much more experienced in this field than some random people on GAF.

Already an employed animator tho but thanks for that. Not that people would need to be an animator to notice in the first place since i'm not the only person who noticed and some people agree ITT. :|

 

[SomTervo]

Just watched the video and it looks great. The ONLY funky thing is that scene where Spider-Man is running up the building at FLASH speed. That is a bit over the top and needs to be fixed. Everything else looks proper except for that wall running portion.

Remember he is mad/super strong and fast.

 

[Floody]

Just watched the video and it looks great. The ONLY funky thing is that scene where Spider-Man is running up the building at FLASH speed. That is a bit over the top and needs to be fixed. Everything else looks proper except for that wall running portion.

He uses a web to quickly build up speed, doesn't really seem too unbelievable. Personally I don't really have an issue with him getting back to swinging faster.

 

[FTF]

This game looks incredible, I can't wait. I'm buying a Pro for this (and GoW).

 

[Primethius]

This game looks incredible, I can't wait. I'm buying a Pro for this (and GoW).

It really does, probably the most stunning game I saw at E3.

Honestly contemplating picking up a 4K TV.

 

[King of Custard]

Oh look no one acknowledged my post and suddenly we're talking about The Witcher 3. I swear I saw some goal posts here?

I'm not going to keep posting examples for you guys to keep changing the game, these type of transitions exist in every game ever made.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh look no one acknowledged my post and suddenly we're talking about The Witcher 3. I swear I saw some goal posts here?

I'm not going to keep posting examples for you guys to keep changing the game, these type of transitions exist in every game ever made.

Did you not see the context of the witcher 3 being brought up on the last page? Or the acknowledgement that even with animation skipping due to instances where player input is prioritized that those both are excellent examples of animation blending? I actually didn't see your post as although it was addressing me, you (while being a bit condescending about me being an animator btw), didn't quote me at all.

 

[RyanardoDaVinci]

Something about that second swing seems off to me. Feels like there should be more of a snap to it when the line catches.

Yeah, he kinda just... floats over and into the next swing instead of falling, having the web snap tight, and continuing the swing.

It's like when you swing really high on the swings and the chains get slack and then SNAP with the tension of the downswing -- all of that is missing in the transition.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

lawd these nit picks roll my eyes back to the fourth of july

there's a point where it's constructive criticism then there's a point where it's some cute armchair developing

 

[ActWan]

looks so good!!!

 

[Spring-Loaded]

lawd these nit picks roll my eyes back to the fourth of july

there's a point where it's constructive criticism then there's a point where it's some cute armchair developing

Can you provide a list of what's acceptable to post about? Like a ToS, perhaps?

Is this bannable:

Yeah, he kinda just... floats over and into the next swing instead of falling, having the web snap tight, and continuing the swing.

It's like when you swing really high on the swings and the chains get slack and then SNAP with the tension of the downswing -- all of that is missing in the transition.

I hope that snap you're talking about is present too. If it's not, and the swinging feels intuitive, I'll be okay though.

 

[Crossing Eden]

lawd these nit picks roll my eyes back to the fourth of july

there's a point where it's constructive criticism then there's a point where it's some cute armchair developing

Do you have any other way to address the feedback besides calling it nitpicky?

Spoiler

Which is a laughable concept considering how iterative art is.

 

[8byte]

Crossing Eden - It's really bizarre that you keep on bringing up Batman AK for animation, when that game does exactly what this one does (that is, sacrifice some transitional animations in order to give player tepid control without having odd transition animations).

It's not that people are unwilling to accept criticism. It's that you're 100% unwilling to accept that maybe this is a creative decision to protect fast player input and battle pacing over a purely cinematic combat experience.

Maybe.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Crossing Eden - It's really bizarre that you keep on bringing up Batman AK for animation, when that game does exactly what this one does (that is, sacrifice some transitional animations in order to give player tepid control without having odd transition animations).

Which I already noted but also noted how it's animation blending is excellent and takes into account instances where the player isn't making any inputs with smooth transitions between one off actions and the idle/walk/run cycles.

It's not that people are unwilling to accept criticism. It's that you're 100% unwilling to accept that maybe this is a creative decision to protect fast player input and battle pacing over a purely cinematic combat experience.

I'm thinking it's more people are unwilling to accept criticism for a game they're hyped for....considering that I already said what you just typed. But also noted that there are ways around this besides incredibly fast skips between poses.

 

[Loudninja]

Just watched the video and it looks great. The ONLY funky thing is that scene where Spider-Man is running up the building at FLASH speed. That is a bit over the top and needs to be fixed. Everything else looks proper except for that wall running portion.

I dont think it will work if he was any slower in running up the building.

 

[King of Custard]

Did you not see the context of the witcher 3 being brought up on the last page? Or the acknowledgement that even with animation skipping due to instances where player input is prioritized that those both are excellent examples of animation blending? I actually didn't see your post as although it was addressing me, you (while being a bit condescending about me being an animator btw), didn't quote me at all.

No I didn't respond to you directly but I'm just following the flow of the thread. I apologies for the animator comment I ment it in a playful way.

Anyway to the point I did give examples why these snap transitions might need to exist and why is the Witcher 3 allowed to skip animations but Spider-Man isn't.

 

[Equanimity]

It really does, probably the most stunning game I saw at E3.

Honestly contemplating picking up a 4K TV.

You know what, I might have to pick up a 4K TV next year.

I dont think it will work if he was any slower in running up the building.

I agree.

 

[Crossing Eden]

No I didn't respond to you directly but I'm just following the flow of the thread. I apologies for the animator comment I ment it in a playful way.

Anyway to the point I did give examples why these snap transitions might need to exist and why is the Witcher 3 allowed to skip animations but Spider-Man isn't.

I didn't say that the game isn't allowed to skip animations only that it looks unnatural and stiff. And how those skips even exist without player inputs like that gif of him landing a page back. I suggested ways that it could be better in that regard.

 

[onemanasylum]

Of devs did listen, we'd have a PC port of Lost Legacy coming tho



Emotional investment can blind people to reason.

No has has an issue with legit criticism though have they? It's a discussion forum, people are allowed to agree or dis-agree.not everything is fanboyism..Another over-used word here. You seem to be getting emotional, no one is is really.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Crossing Eden - It's really bizarre that you keep on bringing up Batman AK for animation, when that game does exactly what this one does (that is, sacrifice some transitional animations in order to give player tepid control without having odd transition animations).

Every game does this, yeah. It's done to varying degrees though, and while I think Spider-Man so far looks to have better looking combat than arkham knight animation-wise (that game sped moves up just a tad too far for my tastes beyond what Arkham City had, along with going overboard with the "zip straight to next enemy" stuff), the transitions between moves in AK—when the game DOESN'T have to resort to the "fly across the room" thing—look really smooth.

Here's a random vid at a random part that I clicked on. He throws one guy by the arm, then clearly prepares a backfist move on the next, performs that move, then catches another enemy's kick without any abrupt "jump cuts." It all looks like something someone could do in a choreographed fight, but it's being controlled. There's still a lot of "cheating" going on, but every game has to resort to this to some degree.

EDIT:

there are abrupt shifts in animation which contrasts with the more believable animations and transition present in that fight. The individual attack animations and takedowns especially sell the weight and presence of the characters, but then there's also these notable shifts.

No has has an issue with legit criticism though have they? It's a discussion forum, people are allowed to agree or dis-agree.not everything is fanboyism..Another over-used word here. You seem to be getting emotional, no one is is really.

You've got people all throughout this thread going at Crossing Eden for always going after Sony properties despite his observations of this game being as valid as any other. It's pretty blatant people are getting defensive over criticism levied at this game, and if it were a simple matter of disagreement, people wouldn't feel the need to constantly complain about the "nitpicking" in a thread about snippets of game footage, and constantly try to paint the animation criticism as having an agenda behind it. They're emotionally invested in the game to the point they introduce talk of poster motives and attempt to undercut discussion by ascribing fanboyishness to a given side.

 

[RyanardoDaVinci]

I dont think it will work if he was any slower in running up the building.

If I were Spidey, when going up a building I would hit the wall, double-webshoot up and yank myself up to the top faster than I could run.

 

[Spinluck]

Every thread having to do with this game devolves into this bullshit.

Fuck it! Great time to be a Spidey fan.

Woooooo boy!

 

[Spring-Loaded]

If I were Spidey, when going up a building I would hit the wall, double-webshoot up and yank myself up to the top faster than I could run.

When watching Homecoming, I thought about how they'd accomplish the vertical wall-run present in SM2 (PS2) and this new game, and thought that periodically firing webs at the building during the run would be a good way of selling it.

Every thread having to do with this game devolves into this bullshit.

Fuck it! Great time to be a Spidey fan.

Woooooo boy!

People complaining about discussion about the game? Yeah, it gets old

 

[Dynomutt]

Every game does this, yeah. It's done to varying degrees though, and while I think Spider-Man so far looks to have better looking combat than arkham knight animation-wise (that game sped moves up just a tad too far for my tastes beyond what Arkham City had, along with going overboard with the "zip straight to next enemy" stuff), the transitions between moves in AK—when the game DOESN'T have to resort to the "fly across the room" thing—look really smooth.

Here's a random vid at a random part that I clicked on. He throws one guy by the arm, then clearly prepares a backfist move on the next, performs that move, then catches another enemy's kick without any abrupt "jump cuts." It all looks like something someone could do in a choreographed fight, but it's being controlled. There's still a lot of "cheating" going on, but every game has to resort to this to some degree.

EDIT:

there are abrupt shifts in animation which contrasts with the more believable animations and transition present in that fight. The individual attack animations and takedowns especially sell the weight and presence of the characters, but then there's also these notable shifts.



You've got people all throughout this thread going at Crossing Eden for always going after Sony properties despite his observations of this game being as valid as any other. It's pretty blatant people are getting defensive over criticism levied at this game, and if it were a simple matter of disagreement, people wouldn't feel the need to constantly complain about the "nitpicking" in a thread about snippets of game footage, and constantly try to paint the animation criticism as having an agenda behind it. They're emotionally invested in the game to the point they introduce talk of poster motives and attempt to undercut discussion by ascribing fanboyishness to a given side.

You could say that the speed of the double kick at the end of the combo appears a bit uh spring-loaded?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

You could say that the speed of the double kick at the end of the combo appears a bit uh spring-loaded?

👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽

That speed is fine, but the transition between the first kick and the next attack is what I'm talking about.

 

[King of Custard]

I didn't say that the game isn't allowed to skip animations only that it looks unnatural and stiff. And how those skips even exist without player inputs like that gif of him landing a page back. I suggested ways that it could be better in that regard.

But that could exist so he isn't constantly knocked over by enemies while his animation is playing and the other two examples you give do happen during player input, one during a combo and the other while traversing the city.

 

[WordsintheWater]

So what villain that's never been done in a Spider-Man game do people want to see? I kind of want to see Hydroman, but I guess he would roughly be the same thing as Sandman.

 

[rashbeep]

No has has an issue with legit criticism though have they? It's a discussion forum, people are allowed to agree or dis-agree.not everything is fanboyism..Another over-used word here. You seem to be getting emotional, no one is is really.

Saying the animation blending could be improved is legit criticism like it or not

 

[Crossing Eden]

But that could exist so he isn't constantly knocked over by enemies while his animation is playing and the other two examples you give do happen during player input, one during a combo and the other while traversing the city.

But during that time it would be acceptable to have a skip or just have a better blending system in general that very smoothly transitions between the easing in and counter attack. Which is again, something that Arkham Knight and ACU already do since their timing is based on rhythm just like this game.

 

[Djostikk]

Oh, this game gonna be rad.

 

[Loudninja]

Insomniac games are really nailing this so far.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

So what villain that's never been done in a Spider-Man game do people want to see? I kind of want to see Hydroman, but I guess he would roughly be the same thing as Sandman.

Give it up I tried many times

 

[Ascenion]

So what villain that's never been done in a Spider-Man game do people want to see? I kind of want to see Hydroman, but I guess he would roughly be the same thing as Sandman.

I just want to see a villain done right in a Spider-Man game. Not a single main antagonist has been handled in any fashion other than underwhelming.

 

[Loudninja]

Goddamn.

 

[BigEmil]

Explain with as little vagueness as possible how any of the above would even remotely ruin the game? I'd genuinely love to hear that being argued. Also I'm not sure if this needs to be said, but you're also on GAF, you're basically asking them to ignore you as well. This is even more comical considering that they've already changed some stuff in the game as a result of feedback.


Already an employed animator tho but thanks for that. Not that people would need to be an animator to notice in the first place since i'm not the only person who noticed and some people agree ITT. :|

They got experienced game animators they know what they're doing they see this too they have their reasons for their design choices while your just some random animator who's no better than the animators at Insomniac at their own game they been developing with for years.

 

[onemanasylum]

Saying the animation blending could be improved is legit criticism like it or not

Never said it never...nothing to do with my post. People are allowed to not agree animation blend is an issue, or does everyone who dis-agree is a fanboy? Great logic.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

So what villain that's never been done in a Spider-Man game do people want to see? I kind of want to see Hydroman, but I guess he would roughly be the same thing as Sandman.

What crossovers with other Marvel properties would the licensing allow for? Because I'd want to see interactions with the punisher and daredevil, which hasn't happened since that PS1 Spider-Man iirc. Punsiher isn't a spider-man villain, but is more street level and has butted heads with other heroes.

I just want some villains that could be faced out in the open-world in some way, that can keep up with Spider-Man. All too often, boss battles occur in cordoned off rooms. The last SM game I played with an aerial fight out in the city was that first movie game and I never owned SM2, just played bits of it and only bothered swinging around—the swinging in this new game deserves to be used in a good fight.

Never said it never...nothing to do with my post. People are allowed to not agree animation blend is an issue, or does everyone who dis-agree is a fanboy? Great logic.

Do you need someone to gather the posts being referred to? Here's one:

Crossing criticizing a PS exclusive? Well I never...

Stuff like that's interspersed throughout the thread.

 

[onemanasylum]

What crossovers with other Marvel properties would the licensing allow for? Because I'd want to see interactions with the punisher and daredevil, which hasn't happened since that PS1 Spider-Man iirc. Punsiher isn't a spider-man villain, but is more street level and has butted heads with other heroes.

I just want some villains that could be faced out in the open-world in some way, that can keep up with Spider-Man. All too often, boss battles occur in cordoned off rooms. The last SM game I played with an aerial fight out in the city was that first movie game and I never owned SM2, just played bits of it and only bothered swinging around—the swinging in this new game deserves to be used in a good fight.



Do you need someone to gather the posts being referred to? Here's one:



Stuff like that's interspersed throughout the thread.

Taking comments out of context....it's regarding the same poster doing it over, and over, in other threads as well for other games...Context is important.