Xist2inspire
Member
This is key. You can have fanservice that's not totally classless, there are levels to this.
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If fighting games want to be mainstream esports, they need less fanservice
- Thread starter DrArchon
- Start date
Steve Youngblood
Member
That's great. I get that there are basically two different definitions of what fanservice is, and that you have a desire to "take it back" so to speak. But this is just a dumb argument mired in semantics. One can probably contextually determine which "fanservice" we're talking about, and it's clear what's being discussed right now.
Sure, she needs to be flexible and aerodynamic and yet:
A character who's body is also a weapon who is more flexible and more acrobatic than Cammy who doesn't need his ass or pectorals bulging out of his body. There is no reason for Cammy's design other than titillating the male straight gamer.
AWizardDidIt
Member
I'm still salty over the Juri redesign. Street Fighter's best design in years and then in SF5 they give her huge boobs and a skin tight body suit (with initial designs showing a v cut down the middle that went below her navel).
I posted it for fun, ofc there's a middleground or maybe a tournament attire that can be used like other martial arts sports idk.
Yappadappadu
Member
I don't know about sexy clothes, but all of them wearing the same tournament clothes would look boring to me.
I like to see them battle in different outfits.
Sure, she needs to be flexible and aerodynamic and yet:
A character who's body is also a weapon who is more flexible and more acrobatic than Cammy who doesn't need his ass or pectorals bulging out of his body. There is no reason for Cammy's design other than titillating the male straight gamer.
I'm not talking about need so much as plausible choices that the character could have made herself. I'm aware that she's not real and made no actual choices herself on a meta level. But creators have to have latitude to make choices for their characters, and I don't have a problem with a leotard when it's a real actual thing that a real actual acrobatic person can choose to wear.
I find Laura much more over the top, but I can also acknowledge that there are no doubt women who do dress like that in real life. I don't think all fanservice should be removed. I think we need (as I've already said) orders of magnitude less of it though.
Dark Ninja
Member
Sexuality NO NO we can't have that on American TV. Violence turn that shit up.
I do like that we have Disney XD Cammy meme now like ESPN Mika.
I do like that we have Disney XD Cammy meme now like ESPN Mika.
ESPN? TBS? It's almost as though they're already mainstream.
ViolentP
Member
The cultivation of enticement of the female body at an early age.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Just create tournament Evo costumes that each character must use during top 8, but don't be lazy with it.. knowing Capcom they would just give the guys and girls some default costumes. Be creative, personally I think espn issue is cammy's super finisher.
There's already plenty of classy outfits in the game to choose from, so adding more doesn't solve the problem. ESPN's problem has been with the default outfits. Players already have enough to worry about being on the biggest stage in fighting games, and now they have to worry about choosing the right outfit for TV which is silly.
Cammy's design has been around for 20+ years, and plenty of women identify with her character and dress up as her. The fault lies with Capcom for designing animations that focus on her crotch. We already seen them go back and fix her introduction animation, and later remove her nipples from her default costume, so those design decisions should be questioned, especially when you look at how they designed Chun Li, Juri, Laura, etc. for SFV.
ESPN is just looking out for their own best interests.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Oh I get what you're saying, and I don't particularly disagree with you, however at the same time I see this as an Americanism, that wouldn't be required here.
In your mainstream, people can't curse, or be nude/sexual, but violence is fine.
CSI is nonstop corpse close-ups, but no nipple shots or "shits".
The MKX situation of tone down sex appeal, but increase gore, is actually quite fucked up.
The greatest Irony of all these things, is always when I travel to FG events, DoA has by far the most female entrants.
shira
Member
Valve has "low violence" models for Dota 2 in China - its enabled in China, but everywhere else gets the "full violence" models. I think that's the kind of thing that could happen for viewers.
Full crotch shots on Twitch and ESPN can have their censored version
The Lone Dragon
Member
Nope. Been 2 years, and some members of Gaf keep trying to sing this same tune.
SF5 has been on TV like 5 or 6 times already around the world.
Hate to break it to you, but fighting game esports are already being taken seriously.
SF5 has been on TV like 5 or 6 times already around the world.
Hate to break it to you, but fighting game esports are already being taken seriously.
Crankshaft
Member
My ex girlfriend loved Dead or Alive and thought the girls were beautiful and sexy. Not everyone demonizes sex appeal.
They don't have to be the same,
Jeans and a blouse looks good on women in real life too.
Not all clothes have to show cleavage and panties to look good.
It's just an extra set of clothes for mainstream appeal and for TV/advertisers.
WaterAstro
Member
Isn't the leotard sexier?
Anyway, ESPN shouldn't be allowed to tell players what to pick.
League of Legends is THE esports, and it has skins, but Riot doesn't tell the players to pick certain skins.
Anyway, ESPN shouldn't be allowed to tell players what to pick.
League of Legends is THE esports, and it has skins, but Riot doesn't tell the players to pick certain skins.
Riposte
Member
People are arguing about leotards and stuff, but the basic premise of this thread is a dud. Street Fighter having sexy costumes doesn't stop it from being on ESPN - so where is the argument in the first place? A more sensible or honest topic from the OP would've been a direct "I wish Street Fighter didn't have these sexy costumes", because the esports angle doesn't make much sense.
League Of Legends also doesn't have the kind of camera angles that Street Fighter V has, though, right?
NoctisVsStar
Member
The leotard isn't the issue is probably just CA finisher that's all
Brawndo Addict
Banned
'Gamers' couldn't even admit Quiet was deliberately over-sexualized (to the point of absurdity) even when Kojima straight up admitted to it. For some reason people would rather die denying what's a blatantly obvious truth to any other human being who has a life outside the industry.
The hilariously hyperbolic and aggressive defenses from people on what should be a completely uncontroversial issue make me embarrassed to be a part of this community. The "If I can't have tits and ass then you might as well just ban games or put everyone in a burka" argument is so infantile that I struggle to understand how these kind of people cope with the realities of a modern workplace, let alone dating.
We always have to use kid gloves when discussing these topics because people get so upset by having their precious gaming safe-space intruded upon by people who believe women should have a place at the table. You realize how little developers think of you when they create this stuff, right? They're laughing their way to the bank as you go out of your way to defend something they intentionally made to exploit your childish predilections in the first place.
The hilariously hyperbolic and aggressive defenses from people on what should be a completely uncontroversial issue make me embarrassed to be a part of this community. The "If I can't have tits and ass then you might as well just ban games or put everyone in a burka" argument is so infantile that I struggle to understand how these kind of people cope with the realities of a modern workplace, let alone dating.
We always have to use kid gloves when discussing these topics because people get so upset by having their precious gaming safe-space intruded upon by people who believe women should have a place at the table. You realize how little developers think of you when they create this stuff, right? They're laughing their way to the bank as you go out of your way to defend something they intentionally made to exploit your childish predilections in the first place.
Im sorry, what?
Quiet is one of the most criticized and brutally mocked characters in the history of gaming.
People threat Quiet with less respect as a creation than actual honest to goodness fanservice characters for the sake of tits and ass.
I legitimately appreciate this.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Are you serious? You can look in threads from this very year to see people still denying there was anything wrong with Quiet, let alone all the huge threads when the game was first being marketed and sold. People took that words and deeds shit to heart and refused to budge, "she has to wear that because she breathes through her skin lol".
This might be true in some communities today, but it was in no way the dominant discourse for a long, long time. That's how pathetic the gaming community can be. It can take years for us to admit to something as baseline and obvious as that.
TatteredHat
Member
I sort of doubt that the existence of fanservice is going to be the make or break point for someone when they consider if they want to start watching fighting game esports.
(in before "But it totally was for me.")
(in before "But it totally was for me.")
It's pretty interesting to see people say that fan service blocks fighters from being"real esports" then ignore all the fan service in mobas, games that already have tv contacts and multi-million dollar prize pools.
"That Cammy skin is scandalous, but I need to drop 300 for fire bikini DotA skin n this year's compendium!"
Fan service is not, not will ever be, the block.
"That Cammy skin is scandalous, but I need to drop 300 for fire bikini DotA skin n this year's compendium!"
Fan service is not, not will ever be, the block.
It does, just not in gameplay.
Still, there's a better argument for cinematic angles being a problem for televised esports then sexy models, especially in sf5 where the camera spends a great deal of time up shirts and down shirts. Hiring an actual fashion designer would help things. But again, none of that is a gate. If it we're, ESPN would be covering kof14 exclusively.
MetaCircular
Member
They went from ugly and sexualized to the point of hilarious stupidity in MK9 to ugly and boring in MKX. I'd take the first option (Battle Strippers) any day.
I also think any comments about the 'practicality' of fighting game outfits are off-base. It is literally the last consideration I want designers to have. Aesthetic appeal is way more important.
AstroNut325
Member
No. I like it that way. Keep the outfits as-is. Not a fan of networks being afraid to show skin.
I don't understand the hatred of Fan Service on GAF, Jesus Christ.
I can certainly agree some designs are a bit over the top (Quiet, MGS5), but Mika and Cammy have been eating those costumes for decades and nobody playing them gave a shit about ESPN
America's fear of sexuality/nudity compared to their love of violence is equally confusing to me
I can certainly agree some designs are a bit over the top (Quiet, MGS5), but Mika and Cammy have been eating those costumes for decades and nobody playing them gave a shit about ESPN
America's fear of sexuality/nudity compared to their love of violence is equally confusing to me
I never once brought up the definition of fan service myself, have no idea why I was expected to define it, and have zero concern for "taking it back". The only thing I cared about was who is or isn't part of the conversation so often due to people's stereotyping.
Forsaken82
Member
Except the difference here is a Cheerleader is not the primary focus during a televised event...
Now if you argued "why do they air the Lingerie Football league, but hate this idea?" You'd have an argument... (i dont know if they ever aired the Lingirie football league, but it makes my point)
Taliban Stan
Member
I think it's weird how much more perved out SF5 is vs SF4. I also don't get why they can't make a CPT mode that locks out stages and costumes and has CPT rules built in.
They could keep the softcore stuff they enjoy making while still making something that can be broadcast without a sexual content warning.
Having said that, real sports have cheerleaders in bikini tops and boy shorts gyrating whenever they go to a commercial break so I question how truly ruinous women in sexy costumes can be.
They could keep the softcore stuff they enjoy making while still making something that can be broadcast without a sexual content warning.
Having said that, real sports have cheerleaders in bikini tops and boy shorts gyrating whenever they go to a commercial break so I question how truly ruinous women in sexy costumes can be.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Yep.
Playing UMvC3 in front of my family where the opponent has chosen Felicia is really... awkward.
Again, the whole fear of sexuality while promoting violence thing is reductionist and not an effective argument at all. Both gratuitous violence and objectification have negative effects if taken too far. They absolutely are not mutually exclusive. Just like how desensitization to extreme violence can have an adverse impact on children and adults alike, the overt sexualization of women sets unrealistic expectations for what women should do and how they should dress to be considered "sexy", and further propagates the misogynistic stereotypes that have plagued the fighting game community for years. And misogyny is definitely still an issue in the community and among gamers in general.
Nobody is saying to take these things out completely. If you want to enjoy a more sexualized or violent experience then you are welcome to. But as video games strive for a larger audience they need to reconsider the norms of the past to reach larger and more diverse audiences.
I think the problem you're seeing here is two issues being conflated.
The issue of America apparently having a problem with sex and male and female video characters not being designed equally.
Personally I don't have a massive issue with fan service if it was equal, but it never is. Compare the male cast and female cast in SFV and it's pretty clear the female cast was designed to titillate where at worst the male cast(Hot Ryu, Zangief, Urien etc or any male who happens to show a lot of skin in the game) were designed with a power fantasy focus in mind or as a kind of joke.
Why do people keep parroting that without it having any base on anything.
"I guess this must be an american thing" is just a lazy way trying to brush this thing off.
I think that voilence is easier to diggest in general because you can make it easily commical, or not real like slapstick in cartoon. Violence and conflict is also something that is easier to implement in games in general.
Hilarious how it it didn't event take 2 post for another person to mention this "argument"
nikos
Member
Or the US could be less uptight about trivial bullshit such as video game characters in skimpy clothing. Rest of the world doesn't care and is fine.
I remember seeing an ice cream commercial of a topless woman on the beach when I lived in Europe. Even as a kid, I knew it was good marketing. I turned out just fine.
Cammy in a leotard isn't going to hurt anybody. Meanwhile, on the next channel, the most violent shit is probably being shown but nobody cares because cartoon ass cheeks aren't showing.
I remember seeing an ice cream commercial of a topless woman on the beach when I lived in Europe. Even as a kid, I knew it was good marketing. I turned out just fine.
Cammy in a leotard isn't going to hurt anybody. Meanwhile, on the next channel, the most violent shit is probably being shown but nobody cares because cartoon ass cheeks aren't showing.
Stallion Dan
Member
It's just an ass or a pair of tits, get over it.
Should note, that cultivation is usually done by really overbearing machismo and sexism, at least in my experience.
Agreed. The sensitivity to skin and equating it to bringing down a gender is ridiculous in a game which shows both male and female warriors as equal prowess wise. The whole fan service not equal is bs for SFV when the camera zooms in on the junk of Claw, Zangief and Urien, and featuring males in underwear
I have never seen anybody here in gaf ever defend quiet or talk about her without a mocking tone.
Kojimas "ashamed of your deeds" tweet is thrown around everywhere in the net to mock the design.
Some Default costume splash images are absolutely embarrassing, specially Janna's and Misfortune's.
Stallion Dan
Member
Same ESPN complaining about Mika and Cammy?
First Google images, not cherry picking, I bet is more revealing stuff to find.
First Google images, not cherry picking, I bet is more revealing stuff to find.