shadow of mordor has a sexy shelob in it? can i ally with her?
maybe i will install that game after the summer sale after all
Not Mordor, War has a sexy shelob.
shadow of mordor has a sexy shelob in it? can i ally with her?
maybe i will install that game after the summer sale after all
Well there were the orcs and Southrons
Orcs!?
Wow..
Edit: you know what, nevermind. My Sunday's been good so far.
Well there were the orcs and Southrons
Hate to ruin your Sunday like this, but it's Monday.
Since when were Middle Earth Orcs "black people" and not "orcs"?
preorderedNot Mordor, War has a sexy shelob.
Since when were Middle Earth Orcs "black people" and not "orcs"?
Weren't people freaking out over the initial trailer for this game because they saw a black dude?
See the previous page on one of the descriptions used. Even if it's supposedly purely descriptive, it doesn't set Tolkien in a fine light that he felt it was acceptable.
For Haradrim or Orcs?
Here's what he looks like:
He just said it doesn't matterIs that what EDarkness said though?
Is this the first black character ever in LotR?
I don't know anything about LotR; why weren't there any black characters?
Is this actually true?
I've previously written that Tolkien created a world where darkness exerts a gravitational force to which every race and individual is susceptible. What we must do is consider how race works as a literary device for investigating this important issue. Race operates analogously to character types in many medieval works. This is something that aided Tolkien when writing to isolate certain characteristics for scrutiny and it also allowed him to play out general predispositions against individual choices, investigating the interplay of determinism and free will (fundamental aspects of the mythos). Of course the idea that racial predispositions can work as literary themes presents interesting problems. Let us examine some of the races. Tolkien wrote that Dwarves reminded him of Jews and he even employed Semitic phonemes in constructing their language. This may be construed as anti-Semitism, but Tolkien explicitly stated that this comparison was rooted in the experience of exile; Jews and Dwarves alike as essentially diasporic, simultaneously at home and foreign. It was a fascination for him, the idea of Dwarves in exile, laboring through an unwelcoming world against which their secrecy is a defense; driven from or attempting to return to ancestral homes. Further, when asked by a German firm in 1938 asking if he was of Aryan origin he wholly dismissed this; I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine. Letter #29.
Elves incite explorations of artistic creativity and the fragility of art in a changing world. The Huorns and Ents speak for nature against the depredations of the other races and are certainly a fitting nemesis for often discussed iron fist of industrialisation. Men are the most variable of Tolkiens races and through them he investigates weakness, love and mortality. There is no moral polarisation of men in Middle-earth, not only are many Numenoreans corruptible, but in The Two Towers, Sam even doubts the evil motives of a slain Haradrim warrior, wondering what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home. An adaptation of this line was used in The Two Towers film; spoken by Faramir.
Now moving onto Orcs (I place all varieties under this word) who expand on the consequences of tyranny. The mass production of hatred and the limiting of individual choice. Orcs are recognisably human and very little do they do that is outside the realm of human behaviour. Their actions throughout the mythos reinforce the Orcs kinship with humanity. Orcs are indeed depicted as ugly, but while their looks can be seen as an external metaphor for an internal condition, these are no more a fantasy characteristic than is Elven beauty. We can see ourselves idealised in the Elves. We see our shadow, the unadmitted, the worst side of human character in the vile but depressingly human behaviour of the Orcs and are thus forced to recognise it. Race is inconsequential, the exploration of the human condition at the fore.
Also of note is a rebuttal to the civilisation against savages argument. The Orcs are representative of the industrialists that Tolkien was so wary of and the Children of Iluvatar representative of the Luddite ideal. To give but one example: the Goblins are established in The Hobbit as being capable of creating sophisticated machines far beyond the capabilities of mere savages and that is something on par with what the Numenoreans achieved. The theme of an advanced industrialist civilisation wreaking havoc on the more 'natural' way of life is a dominant theme and one that Tolkien was projecting when creating his mythos.
By refracting these issues through different races, Tolkien like medieval writers and scribes of ancient myth, risked flattening his characters into types; often described by his harshest critics as simple stereotypes. It can be equally said that Tolkiens fascination with racial and cultural difference allowed him to explore the difficulty of understanding across cultural difference and the need for mutual respect. The Lord of the Rings places emphasis on the need for mutual respect and cooperation amongst the various peoples who coexist in Middle-earth and whose diverse cultures are threatened by the mono-cultural dominion of Melkor and Sauron.
Tolkien was racist, but his racism was more a sort of privilege-driven ignorance that's obnoxious but kind of down there on the scale.
It's not like LotR was any sort of ode to wishing bad things on blacks and while it's grating that the only dark-skinned folk in Middle-Earth served Sauron, the entire race barely gets a mention and (as pointed out by JonnyDBrit) they're unique among Sauron's allies for being portrayed as more an ally of circumstance than corrupted by the Ring. Now, take that by itself and it's still disgusting, but consider that the cast of LotR is also 99% male, including the entire Fellowship. He was certainly kinder to women in creating the roles of Eowyn and Galadriel, but while I don't know if he personally knew any blacks at all, he was at least married so his understanding of women wasn't zero.
My point is that for the most part he wrote like he was very insecure of his ability to understand anyone other than white men. He generally shied away from portraying anyone other than white men in any way, and probably only very reluctantly included women at all because at some point a world -- however fictional -- with zero women would've been ridiculous. It's unfortunate, but what I'm trying to say is, he seemed kind of honest about his ignorance. Far from ideal but I'll take that, at least, over someone who fills the void of ignorance with absolute certainty of something terribly untrue.
Well the question is always who you want to compare him to. Does it suck that all black people we know of in Middle Earth side with Sauron? Of course. But at the same time they are basically extras, I don't think there's any named Haradrim, the whole culture is barely fleshed out. And there's that 'maybe they are just misled by Sauron' paragraph someone already quoted.
Compared to the way Tolkien's pal C.S. Lewis made Narnia's neighbour Calormen a completely racist caricature of an Arab country where everyone except two or three characters is evil (and one of them turns out to be actually from Narnia)... I'll take Tolkien anytime
Tolkien was racist, but his racism was more a sort of privilege-driven ignorance that's obnoxious but kind of down there on the scale.
It's not like LotR was any sort of ode to wishing bad things on blacks and while it's grating that the only dark-skinned folk in Middle-Earth served Sauron, the entire race barely gets a mention and (as pointed out by JonnyDBrit) they're unique among Sauron's allies for being portrayed as more an ally of circumstance than corrupted by the Ring. Now, take that by itself and it's still disgusting, but consider that the cast of LotR is also 99% male, including the entire Fellowship. He was certainly kinder to women in creating the roles of Eowyn and Galadriel, but while I don't know if he personally knew any blacks at all, he was at least married so his understanding of women wasn't zero.
My point is that for the most part he wrote like he was very insecure of his ability to understand anyone other than white men. He generally shied away from portraying anyone other than white men in any way, and probably only very reluctantly included women at all because at some point a world -- however fictional -- with zero women would've been ridiculous. It's unfortunate, but what I'm trying to say is, he seemed kind of honest about his ignorance. Far from ideal but I'll take that, at least, over someone who fills the void of ignorance with absolute certainty of something terribly untrue.
Except not really. The guy clearly had trouble breaking from stereotypical or problematic depictions in his works, but his books and even his interviews, he staunchly disagreed with racial prejudice. He's about as progressive you could have frankly asked for from a British dude in the early 50's who wrote LOTR as a faux-mythology for Western Europe.Because JRR Tolkien was a racist.
Tolkien pretty much described the orcs, the vile villains of the series like this;
So yeah.
LoL. ...Awkward...
You know what, though? That 'race' background is actually a pretty great jumping-off point for a series that's already ret-conning so much of the series' lore.
Gimme a conflicted black hero from a splinter group that isn't sure why their leaders have long followed Sauron in the first place. That'd actually be much more interesting than typical fantasy fluff - because he'd basically be fighting everyone: Sauron, his own people, and the prejudice of the people he's trying to help. Wow, that'd be neat. (And people wondered if Boromir could be trusted near the ring....)
Orcs however, are not men. Unlike the wicked men who serve the Enemy, who might have been enslaved or beguiled, orcs are portrayed as irredeemably evil, or at least having a redemption outside the scope of the narrative. The origin of orcs is not clear, but they may be products of Morgoth's sorcery, or the descendants of tortured and ruined elves. Regardless of their origins they are not presented as a natural race, indeed there is no mention of orc women. Perhaps inspired by his Roman Catholicism, Tolkien's orcs may have more in common with demonic armies than foreign ones.
LoL. ...Awkward...
You know what, though? That 'race' background is actually a pretty great jumping-off point for a series that's already ret-conning so much of the series' lore.
Gimme a conflicted black hero from a splinter group that isn't sure why their leaders have long followed Sauron in the first place. That'd actually be much more interesting than typical fantasy fluff - because he'd basically be fighting everyone: Sauron, his own people, and the prejudice of the people he's trying to help. Wow, that'd be neat. (And people wondered if Boromir could be trusted near the ring....)
Wait how is a spider sexy?I guess that evens out sexy shelob
Except not really. The guy clearly had trouble breaking from stereotypical depictions in his works, but his works and even his in interviews, he staunchly disagreed with racial prejudice. He's about as progressive you could have frankly asked for from a British dude in the early 50's
Good. Very good! Props to them for doing this!
Wait how is a spider sexy?
It's certainly an issue that requires far more nuance and reading than simply calling him racist and being done with it, as some here have. As that page itself indicates, quite a bit requires further reading than LOTR for more context... at which point I'm not sure any of us here are qualified to make such an extreme/damaging accusation. Well, I mean, sure, people are free to make it... but if all someone has read is a single web page which itself doesn't draw direct conclusions, I'm not sure anyone should trust said opinion.
If anyone would've had any qualifications to make such a judgement, it would've been Edmond Dantes...I'm not sure if we ever received full closure about him, but last I heard it was assumed he is no longer with us. His discussions on Tolkien's works were always in-depth and very fascinating.
Dude, he moved to England when he was 3.The guy was born in South Africa
Well the question is always who you want to compare him to. Does it suck that all black people we know of in Middle Earth side with Sauron? Of course. But at the same time they are basically extras, I don't think there's any named Haradrim, the whole culture is barely fleshed out. And there's that 'maybe they are just misled by Sauron' paragraph someone already quoted.
wait all those movies really never had a black person
After reading that page, I'm even less convinced he was 'racist'. Some questionable word choice based on today's standards? Yes. But many of the examples seem like stretches [as the page itself basically admits], and, as the same page discusses, there are plenty examples of -direct- discussion of anti-racist ideals, such as multiple passages indicating that having dwarves and elves put aside any differences and learning to understand and embrace each other's cultures would be a good thing. That's direct discussion in regards to race relations in my opinion, and trumps a lot of stuff like having orcs be dark skinned [evil being represented by dark/night is core symbology due to millennia of shared danger across all cultures during night, and not inherently racist, imo].
It's certainly an issue that requires far more nuance and reading than simply calling him racist and being done with it, as some here have. As that page itself indicates, quite a bit requires further reading than LOTR for more context... at which point I'm not sure any of us here are qualified to make such an extreme/damaging accusation. Well, I mean, sure, people are free to make it... but if all someone has read is a single web page which itself doesn't draw direct conclusions, I'm not sure anyone should trust said opinion.
And was against apartheid according to the Tolkien Gateway page that was linked.Dude, he moved to England when he was 3.
They are. I believe somewhere in The History of Middle-earth or in one of his letters he explained that the many of the men of the east were approached by Morgoth, who proclaimed himself their god-king. (Remember that aside from the first Elves, nobody had seen a Vala before.) Tolkien also wrote that the two Blue Wizards who traveled to the east in the Third Age to disrupt Sauron's hold on the region were successful in their attempts to incite rebellion against Sauron (though he initially wrote that they had failed).
Tolkien also wrote that the two Blue Wizards who traveled to the east in the Third Age to disrupt Sauron's hold on the region were successful in their attempts to incite rebellion against Sauron (though he initially wrote that they had failed).
I mean there's a distinct difference between an artist never even considering that they only draw white people (which is waaayyyy common), versus a writer like Tolkein who openly invites and admits comparisons between the dwarves in LOTR as representations of the Jewish people. Or the orcs being scimitar-weilding dark skinned monsters from the East, with a whole bunch of other brown people joining Sauron. I mean the story brazenly includes themes about people getting over their racist baggage, but Tolkein wasn't above using problematic representations.Do the people here condemning Tolkein also consider Bill Watterson a racist? Calvin and Hobbes is all-white. Even whiter than Lord of the Rings. No black people or any other non-whites appear at all throughout the entire run.
wait all those movies really never had a black person
Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?
Wizards in Middle Earth aren't humans. As far as I know, outside of them wearing blue, their appearance isn't described. Why do you assume they have to be white?Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?
Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?