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[Raptor]

shadow of mordor has a sexy shelob in it? can i ally with her?

maybe i will install that game after the summer sale after all

Not Mordor, War has a sexy shelob.

 

[phantasmic_glaive]

Well there were the orcs and Southrons

Orcs!?

Wow..

Edit: you know what, nevermind. My Sunday's been good so far.

 

[JusDoIt]

Orcs!?

Wow..

Edit: you know what, nevermind. My Sunday's been good so far.

Hate to ruin your Sunday like this, but it's Monday.

 

[ponpo]

Well there were the orcs and Southrons

Since when were Middle Earth Orcs "black people" and not "orcs"?

 

[phantasmic_glaive]

Hate to ruin your Sunday like this, but it's Monday.

😂...shows you how good it's been. Thanks

 

[JusDoIt]

Since when were Middle Earth Orcs "black people" and not "orcs"?

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works

 

[Poppy]

Not Mordor, War has a sexy shelob.

preordered

 

[Skilletor]

Weren't people freaking out over the initial trailer for this game because they saw a black dude?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Since when were Middle Earth Orcs "black people" and not "orcs"?

See the previous page on one of the descriptions used. Even if it's supposedly purely descriptive, it doesn't set Tolkien in a fine light that he felt it was acceptable.

Edit:

Weren't people freaking out over the initial trailer for this game because they saw a black dude?

Yep, with much of the same discussion as before. Really annoying were the people claiming it was at odds with the established world when there's plenty of places in Middle-Earth black people can come from.

 

[Crankshaft]

I'm sure if Tolkien was alive today he would retcon the Haradrim or explain them better.

Or

Maybe he would double down and make them seem worse like a crazy old racist!
What do I know, I'm just an internet poster.

 

[Raptor]

preordered

My man!!

XD

 

[ponpo]

See the previous page on one of the descriptions used. Even if it's supposedly purely descriptive, it doesn't set Tolkien in a fine light that he felt it was acceptable.

For Haradrim or Orcs?

 

[Chao]

"We know you asked for it, so we made a black LOTR character at last!, Black community will finally have representation in this fantasy world.

*It's DLC so please buy the season pass for the game k thx"

 

[JonnyDBrit]

For Haradrim or Orcs?

The description used on the people of Far Harad, though admittedly they're compared to half-trolls.

 

[spazchicken]

Here's what he looks like:

Cool. Can he be main character and not 60 years old?

Nah, I take that back, this is progress.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Is that what EDarkness said though?

He just said it doesn't matter

 

[LurkingFear]

Is this the first black character ever in LotR?

No. the first was Blackwolf, The Dragonmaster.

 

[dragonchild]

Tolkien was racist, but his racism was more a sort of privilege-driven ignorance that's obnoxious but kind of down there on the scale.

It's not like LotR was any sort of ode to wishing bad things on blacks and while it's grating that the only dark-skinned folk in Middle-Earth served Sauron, the entire race barely gets a mention and (as pointed out by JonnyDBrit) they're unique among Sauron's allies for being portrayed as more an ally of circumstance than corrupted by the Ring. Now, take that by itself and it's still disgusting, but consider that the cast of LotR is also 99% male, including the entire Fellowship. He was certainly kinder to women in creating the roles of Eowyn and Galadriel, but while I don't know if he personally knew any blacks at all, he was at least married so his understanding of women wasn't zero.
My point is that for the most part he wrote like he was very insecure of his ability to understand anyone other than white men. He generally shied away from portraying anyone other than white men in any way, and probably only very reluctantly included women at all because at some point a world -- however fictional -- with zero women would've been ridiculous. It's unfortunate, but what I'm trying to say is, he seemed kind of honest about his ignorance. Far from ideal but I'll take that, at least, over someone who fills the void of ignorance with absolute certainty of something terribly untrue.

 

[luulubuu]

I don't know anything about LotR; why weren't there any black characters?

Tolkien pretty much described the orcs, the vile villains of the series like this;

So yeah.

 

[waveuponwave]

Well the question is always who you want to compare him to. Does it suck that all black people we know of in Middle Earth side with Sauron? Of course. But at the same time they are basically extras, I don't think there's any named Haradrim, the whole culture is barely fleshed out. And there's that 'maybe they are just misled by Sauron' paragraph someone already quoted.

Compared to the way Tolkien's pal C.S. Lewis made Narnia's neighbour Calormen a completely racist caricature of an Arab country where everyone except two or three characters is evil (and one of them turns out to be actually from Narnia)... I'll take Tolkien anytime

 

[Loxley]

Is this actually true?

Regarding race in Middle-earth and Tolkien's views on it, I always point people to this thread by GAF's former Tolkien scholar Edmond Dantes:

I've previously written that Tolkien created a world where darkness exerts a gravitational force to which every race and individual is susceptible. What we must do is consider how race works as a literary device for investigating this important issue. Race operates analogously to character types in many medieval works. This is something that aided Tolkien when writing to isolate certain characteristics for scrutiny and it also allowed him to play out general predispositions against individual choices, investigating the interplay of determinism and free will (fundamental aspects of the mythos). Of course the idea that racial predispositions can work as literary themes presents interesting problems. Let us examine some of the races. Tolkien wrote that Dwarves reminded him of Jews and he even employed Semitic phonemes in constructing their language. This may be construed as anti-Semitism, but Tolkien explicitly stated that this comparison was rooted in the experience of exile; Jews and Dwarves alike as essentially diasporic, simultaneously at home and foreign. It was a fascination for him, the idea of Dwarves in exile, laboring through an unwelcoming world against which their secrecy is a defense; driven from or attempting to return to ancestral homes. Further, when asked by a German firm in 1938 asking if he was of Aryan origin he wholly dismissed this; “I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.” – Letter #29.

Elves incite explorations of artistic creativity and the fragility of art in a changing world. The Huorns and Ents speak for nature against the depredations of the other races and are certainly a fitting nemesis for often discussed iron fist of industrialisation. Men are the most variable of Tolkien’s races and through them he investigates weakness, love and mortality. There is no moral polarisation of men in Middle-earth, not only are many Numenoreans corruptible, but in The Two Towers, Sam even doubts the ‘evil’ motives of a slain Haradrim warrior, wondering “what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home.” An adaptation of this line was used in The Two Towers film; spoken by Faramir.

Now moving onto Orcs (I place all varieties under this word) who expand on the consequences of tyranny. The mass production of hatred and the limiting of individual choice. Orcs are recognisably human and very little do they do that is outside the realm of human behaviour. Their actions throughout the mythos reinforce the Orcs’ kinship with humanity. Orcs are indeed depicted as ‘ugly’, but while their looks can be seen as an external metaphor for an internal condition, these are no more a fantasy characteristic than is Elven beauty. We can see ourselves idealised in the Elves. We see our shadow, the unadmitted, the worst side of human character in the vile but depressingly human behaviour of the Orcs and are thus forced to recognise it. Race is inconsequential, the exploration of the human condition at the fore.

Also of note is a rebuttal to the ‘civilisation against savages’ argument. The Orcs are representative of the industrialists that Tolkien was so wary of and the Children of Iluvatar representative of the Luddite ideal. To give but one example: the Goblins are established in The Hobbit as being capable of creating sophisticated machines far beyond the capabilities of mere savages and that is something on par with what the Numenoreans achieved. The theme of an advanced industrialist civilisation wreaking havoc on the more 'natural' way of life is a dominant theme and one that Tolkien was projecting when creating his mythos.

By refracting these issues through different races, Tolkien like medieval writers and scribes of ancient myth, risked flattening his characters into types; often described by his harshest critics as simple stereotypes. It can be equally said that Tolkien’s fascination with racial and cultural difference allowed him to explore the difficulty of understanding across cultural difference and the need for mutual respect. The Lord of the Rings places emphasis on the need for mutual respect and cooperation amongst the various peoples who coexist in Middle-earth and whose diverse cultures are threatened by the mono-cultural dominion of Melkor and Sauron.

The whole thread is worth reading through, it was a good discussion on the topic.

 

[JusDoIt]

Tolkien was racist, but his racism was more a sort of privilege-driven ignorance that's obnoxious but kind of down there on the scale.

It's not like LotR was any sort of ode to wishing bad things on blacks and while it's grating that the only dark-skinned folk in Middle-Earth served Sauron, the entire race barely gets a mention and (as pointed out by JonnyDBrit) they're unique among Sauron's allies for being portrayed as more an ally of circumstance than corrupted by the Ring. Now, take that by itself and it's still disgusting, but consider that the cast of LotR is also 99% male, including the entire Fellowship. He was certainly kinder to women in creating the roles of Eowyn and Galadriel, but while I don't know if he personally knew any blacks at all, he was at least married so his understanding of women wasn't zero.
My point is that for the most part he wrote like he was very insecure of his ability to understand anyone other than white men. He generally shied away from portraying anyone other than white men in any way, and probably only very reluctantly included women at all because at some point a world -- however fictional -- with zero women would've been ridiculous. It's unfortunate, but what I'm trying to say is, he seemed kind of honest about his ignorance. Far from ideal but I'll take that, at least, over someone who fills the void of ignorance with absolute certainty of something terribly untrue.

Top notch apologism.

 

[luulubuu]

Well the question is always who you want to compare him to. Does it suck that all black people we know of in Middle Earth side with Sauron? Of course. But at the same time they are basically extras, I don't think there's any named Haradrim, the whole culture is barely fleshed out. And there's that 'maybe they are just misled by Sauron' paragraph someone already quoted.

Compared to the way Tolkien's pal C.S. Lewis made Narnia's neighbour Calormen a completely racist caricature of an Arab country where everyone except two or three characters is evil (and one of them turns out to be actually from Narnia)... I'll take Tolkien anytime

I would drop both like the hot mess they are and go read something else, less self indulgence and with lesser bible tones.

Tolkien was racist, but his racism was more a sort of privilege-driven ignorance that's obnoxious but kind of down there on the scale.

It's not like LotR was any sort of ode to wishing bad things on blacks and while it's grating that the only dark-skinned folk in Middle-Earth served Sauron, the entire race barely gets a mention and (as pointed out by JonnyDBrit) they're unique among Sauron's allies for being portrayed as more an ally of circumstance than corrupted by the Ring. Now, take that by itself and it's still disgusting, but consider that the cast of LotR is also 99% male, including the entire Fellowship. He was certainly kinder to women in creating the roles of Eowyn and Galadriel, but while I don't know if he personally knew any blacks at all, he was at least married so his understanding of women wasn't zero.
My point is that for the most part he wrote like he was very insecure of his ability to understand anyone other than white men. He generally shied away from portraying anyone other than white men in any way, and probably only very reluctantly included women at all because at some point a world -- however fictional -- with zero women would've been ridiculous. It's unfortunate, but what I'm trying to say is, he seemed kind of honest about his ignorance. Far from ideal but I'll take that, at least, over someone who fills the void of ignorance with absolute certainty of something terribly untrue.

The guy was born in South Africa, and his villains are dark skinned people vs pale guys, yeah. No.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Because JRR Tolkien was a racist.

Except not really. The guy clearly had trouble breaking from stereotypical or problematic depictions in his works, but his books and even his interviews, he staunchly disagreed with racial prejudice. He's about as progressive you could have frankly asked for from a British dude in the early 50's who wrote LOTR as a faux-mythology for Western Europe.

He comes off as the kind of person who would make friends with an Asian guy, and at some point say to him "You people are such good mathematicians." Like, yeah, that's some racist bullshit. But that's about the best you could really hope for from someone in that era

 

[daxy]

I do wonder, have the people who call Tolkien racist actually read the books? Forget the movies. If you have and you have understood the major themes it addresses (as Loxley's post above summarizes quite well), surely you could not in your right mind come to the conclusion that Tolkien's work was some sort of mad allegory about race war? I'm baffled.

Their physical description is incidental to their nature? You could look for underlying racially suggestive imagery in any work of fiction if you look hard enough. Darth Vader wears a wholly black costume and is voiced by a black man, but after he turns on his evil (white) master and takes his mask off, he is shown as a white dude all along -- and his voice changes too. Was this because Lucas thinks that black men have an inherently menacing voice and this was utilized to make the audience understand that he is a bad dude, or is it simply because James Earl Jones has a beautiful and powerful low voice? Let's not forget the dual identity of the series' main hero/antagonist: Anakin Skywalker, who is the conflicted good guy, and the ubiquitously evil Darth [Dark] Vader [Father].

Tolkien pretty much described the orcs, the vile villains of the series like this;

So yeah.

Wrong. Illustrator's taking a lot of creative liberties and is projecting his/her own perceptions. The Orcs are described to have an sickly, ashen-like appearance. Nowhere is it stated that they have such noses either. Also, good job at cherry picking the image of the darkest Orc you could find, presumably from the LotR wiki. Really, well done.

 

[KojiKnight]

LoL. ...Awkward...

You know what, though? That 'race' background is actually a pretty great jumping-off point for a series that's already ret-conning so much of the series' lore.
Gimme a conflicted black hero from a splinter group that isn't sure why their leaders have long followed Sauron in the first place. That'd actually be much more interesting than typical fantasy fluff - because he'd basically be fighting everyone: Sauron, his own people, and the prejudice of the people he's trying to help. Wow, that'd be neat. (And people wondered if Boromir could be trusted near the ring....)

I'm totally game for this.

 

[Head.spawn]

Something something Token Tolkien black guy, something, something..

He better not die first.

 

[UncleSporky]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works

That page brings up a good point, an angle that I hadn't thought of before:

Orcs however, are not men. Unlike the wicked men who serve the Enemy, who might have been enslaved or beguiled, orcs are portrayed as irredeemably evil, or at least having a redemption outside the scope of the narrative. The origin of orcs is not clear, but they may be products of Morgoth's sorcery, or the descendants of tortured and ruined elves. Regardless of their origins they are not presented as a natural race, indeed there is no mention of orc women. Perhaps inspired by his Roman Catholicism, Tolkien's orcs may have more in common with demonic armies than foreign ones.

When you see them brought to life in film they are essentially like a horde of wingless demons. The "unnatural existence" aspect of them, with no known females and no known examples of redeemed/good orcs supports that idea. LotR has a biblical-style antagonist and he created an army of demons to serve him.

LoL. ...Awkward...

You know what, though? That 'race' background is actually a pretty great jumping-off point for a series that's already ret-conning so much of the series' lore.
Gimme a conflicted black hero from a splinter group that isn't sure why their leaders have long followed Sauron in the first place. That'd actually be much more interesting than typical fantasy fluff - because he'd basically be fighting everyone: Sauron, his own people, and the prejudice of the people he's trying to help. Wow, that'd be neat. (And people wondered if Boromir could be trusted near the ring....)

When I first saw this thread I had this thought too. It sounds pretty awesome, and would be a cool way to explore some less-explored territory in Tolkien's universe.

 

[BUNTING1243]

wait all those movies really never had a black person

 

[autoduelist]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works

After reading that page, I'm even less convinced he was 'racist'. Some questionable word choice based on today's standards? Yes. But many of the examples seem like stretches [as the page itself basically admits], and, as the same page discusses, there are plenty examples of -direct- discussion of anti-racist ideals, such as multiple passages indicating that having dwarves and elves put aside any differences and learning to understand and embrace each other's cultures would be a good thing. That's direct discussion in regards to race relations in my opinion, and trumps a lot of stuff like having orcs be dark skinned [evil being represented by dark/night is core symbology due to millennia of shared danger across all cultures during night, and not inherently racist, imo].

It's certainly an issue that requires far more nuance and reading than simply calling him racist and being done with it, as some here have. As that page itself indicates, quite a bit requires further reading than LOTR for more context... at which point I'm not sure any of us here are qualified to make such an extreme/damaging accusation. Well, I mean, sure, people are free to make it... but if all someone has read is a single web page which itself doesn't draw direct conclusions, I'm not sure anyone should trust said opinion.

 

[AlexFlame116]

Good. Very good! Props to them for doing this!

I guess that evens out sexy shelob

Wait how is a spider sexy?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Except not really. The guy clearly had trouble breaking from stereotypical depictions in his works, but his works and even his in interviews, he staunchly disagreed with racial prejudice. He's about as progressive you could have frankly asked for from a British dude in the early 50's

Well, there's the thing - one can be racist or use racists ideas even while opposing racism. Again, he wasn't the type to actively abuse anyone through it, but the prejudices in his works do show. Unfortunately, because he's one of the single-most influential authors ever, a lot of the general issues in the fantasy genre as a whole can be traced to people recreating his tropes without consideration of the fact those elements weren't necessarily good even if Tolkien did them, and well, there's the whole issue of adapting works to modern sensibilities vs retaining their original design/spirit/intent/whatever.

In this case though, I don't think Tolkien would especially mind it. This was a guy who had issues with his own work up until his death - frustrated by the fact that he'd created the orcs as seemingly, wholly evil even though that was at odds with both his personal theology and how he intended the cosmology of his world to work - so I don't think it'd be impossible to convince him that maybe he could have broadened out the visual diversity of the fellowship at least a tad.

Really, it would be sexy Shelob that would be the more pressing issue I'd think.

Edit:

Good. Very good! Props to them for doing this!

Wait how is a spider sexy?

So apparently the evil spider monster that's the daughter of an abomination that came out of literally not even God might know where somehow has the power to turn into a discount Yennefer.

 

[UncleSporky]

It's certainly an issue that requires far more nuance and reading than simply calling him racist and being done with it, as some here have. As that page itself indicates, quite a bit requires further reading than LOTR for more context... at which point I'm not sure any of us here are qualified to make such an extreme/damaging accusation. Well, I mean, sure, people are free to make it... but if all someone has read is a single web page which itself doesn't draw direct conclusions, I'm not sure anyone should trust said opinion.

If anyone would've had any qualifications to make such a judgement, it would've been Edmond Dantes...I'm not sure if we ever received full closure about him, but last I heard it was assumed he is no longer with us. His discussions on Tolkien's works were always in-depth and very fascinating.

 

[Loxley]

If anyone would've had any qualifications to make such a judgement, it would've been Edmond Dantes...I'm not sure if we ever received full closure about him, but last I heard it was assumed he is no longer with us. His discussions on Tolkien's works were always in-depth and very fascinating.

For what it's worth, those claims have never been verified. It's just an assumption some people have (though not me).

 

[Zyae]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works

That is all tenuous at best

 

[dragonchild]

The guy was born in South Africa

Dude, he moved to England when he was 3.

 

[Windam]

Well the question is always who you want to compare him to. Does it suck that all black people we know of in Middle Earth side with Sauron? Of course. But at the same time they are basically extras, I don't think there's any named Haradrim, the whole culture is barely fleshed out. And there's that 'maybe they are just misled by Sauron' paragraph someone already quoted.

They are. I believe somewhere in The History of Middle-earth or in one of his letters he explained that the many of the men of the east were approached by Morgoth, who proclaimed himself their god-king. (Remember that aside from the first Elves, nobody had seen a Vala before.) Tolkien also wrote that the two Blue Wizards who traveled to the east in the Third Age to disrupt Sauron's hold on the region were successful in their attempts to incite rebellion against Sauron (though he initially wrote that they had failed).

 

[Head.spawn]

wait all those movies really never had a black person

There was like one black guy that i remember, on screen for like a millisecond in Return of the King.

 

[Amneziak]

Do the people here condemning Tolkein also consider Bill Watterson a racist? Calvin and Hobbes is all-white. Even whiter than Lord of the Rings. No black people or any other non-whites appear at all throughout the entire run.

 

[JusDoIt]

After reading that page, I'm even less convinced he was 'racist'. Some questionable word choice based on today's standards? Yes. But many of the examples seem like stretches [as the page itself basically admits], and, as the same page discusses, there are plenty examples of -direct- discussion of anti-racist ideals, such as multiple passages indicating that having dwarves and elves put aside any differences and learning to understand and embrace each other's cultures would be a good thing. That's direct discussion in regards to race relations in my opinion, and trumps a lot of stuff like having orcs be dark skinned [evil being represented by dark/night is core symbology due to millennia of shared danger across all cultures during night, and not inherently racist, imo].

It's certainly an issue that requires far more nuance and reading than simply calling him racist and being done with it, as some here have. As that page itself indicates, quite a bit requires further reading than LOTR for more context... at which point I'm not sure any of us here are qualified to make such an extreme/damaging accusation. Well, I mean, sure, people are free to make it... but if all someone has read is a single web page which itself doesn't draw direct conclusions, I'm not sure anyone should trust said opinion.

Keep in mind that's from a Tolkien fansite and offers perhaps the most generous reading of his work and the racism therein. It was just the first link that came up in Google with an overview of the issues surrounding his work for those unaware, not the definitive word on the subject.

 

[Tubobutts]

Dude, he moved to England when he was 3.

And was against apartheid according to the Tolkien Gateway page that was linked.

 

[Madness]

Well he wrote the books like late 1930's to 1940's. Why would you expect him to have non-white characters? The UK was like 99% white, mass immigration wasn't a thing. There are people who draw allegories between Middle-Earth being western Europe, industrialization and the killing of the natural environment, etc. Most dark-skinned characters were just 'others' in the book aka Haradrim, Eastern forces, Orcs etc.

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

I mean he was British, the racism is implied.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

They are. I believe somewhere in The History of Middle-earth or in one of his letters he explained that the many of the men of the east were approached by Morgoth, who proclaimed himself their god-king. (Remember that aside from the first Elves, nobody had seen a Vala before.) Tolkien also wrote that the two Blue Wizards who traveled to the east in the Third Age to disrupt Sauron's hold on the region were successful in their attempts to incite rebellion against Sauron (though he initially wrote that they had failed).

It's stuff like this that makes it hard to parse (though for me, hopeful) on what his view of such matters would be. He was willing enough to see, "Oh um, that's probably a bit racist, I should fix that a little." But not enough to really go in-depth on what actual cultures and civilisations might exist beyond the map we usually get to see, and show why they weren't inherently tied to any dark lord. You can't even look at MERP for a good idea of what he might have accepted in more lenient fashion since it was made over a decade after his death.

Also it just occurred to me that the Baranor/Talion dynamic could, if they wanted to, play on the fact that Talion got sent to the black gate in part because he struck a noble, while Baranor's armour - unless that's just standard issue in Minas Ithil - makes it kinda seem like he's managed to stick pretty well to Gondor's societal standards.

 

[UncleSporky]

Tolkien also wrote that the two Blue Wizards who traveled to the east in the Third Age to disrupt Sauron's hold on the region were successful in their attempts to incite rebellion against Sauron (though he initially wrote that they had failed).

Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?

 

[Shaanyboi]

Do the people here condemning Tolkein also consider Bill Watterson a racist? Calvin and Hobbes is all-white. Even whiter than Lord of the Rings. No black people or any other non-whites appear at all throughout the entire run.

I mean there's a distinct difference between an artist never even considering that they only draw white people (which is waaayyyy common), versus a writer like Tolkein who openly invites and admits comparisons between the dwarves in LOTR as representations of the Jewish people. Or the orcs being scimitar-weilding dark skinned monsters from the East, with a whole bunch of other brown people joining Sauron. I mean the story brazenly includes themes about people getting over their racist baggage, but Tolkein wasn't above using problematic representations.

 

[Dmax3901]

wait all those movies really never had a black person

No black characters, but many of the Uruk Hai were Maori (indigenous people of New Zealand) and this guy played Lurtz, The Witch King and Gothmog (pus-faced orc in RotK).

 

[luulubuu]

Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?

Pretty much this, tribal race needs the word of a superior race to see their errors. Pretty creepy but of course, there will be some detail that will totally apologize this, I'm sure.

 

[Tubobutts]

Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?

Wizards in Middle Earth aren't humans. As far as I know, outside of them wearing blue, their appearance isn't described. Why do you assume they have to be white?

 

[Wulfram]

Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?

The Blue wizards are Maia, there's no particular reason to see them as white. They're more angels than missionaries.

Obviously the wizards we know took on the appearance of white men, but that would presumably be because they lived among them. I'd expect wizards living among people of colour to appear as people of colour.