Support NeoGAF

[Gattsu25]

Wait how is a spider sexy?

...for whatever reason there are a number of examples of stories that involve half-woman half-spider creatures.

Just talking about games within the past few years then both

Spoiler

Dark Souls

and

Spoiler

Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

are examples that initially introduce the creature by showing the "attractive" half-woman before showing the full body of the creature.

I'll never understand this shit or why it seems to be a trope.

 

[Fury451]

Lovecraft was racist too

Lovecraft was comically racist and xenophobic even for his time. He sorta seemed to soften slightly later. Guy had a lot of personality issues.

Anyway,this is pretty cool. Going to wait on the game because the first oe got repetitive despite being good, but this looks great so far

 

[Gattsu25]

Lovecraft was comically racist and xenophobic even for his time. He sorta seemed to soften slightly later. Guy had a lot of personality issues.

Oh yeah. Lovecraft was pretty overt with his racism and xenophobia.

It's a shame.

 

[TheCthultist]

It's a shame.

Eh, more a lesson than anything else. Just because someone's a sheltered, xenophobic idiot in real life, doesn't mean you cant enjoy their creations. The ridiculousness of Lovecraft's case makes it a bit easier to separate the two than with other writers. Still, as far as racist authors go, Tolkien is not one that comes to mind in the sea of more overt examples.

 

[sorathecrow]

Based on the racialist subtext of his work and the fact that he lived in a time when racism was the status quo. It's an assumption, but a pretty safe one.

Anyone can be a villain if you generalize them based on the worst ideas of the eras they lived in.

 

[Albino_Yeti]

Damn people. So quick to throw labels around.

Tolkien's earlier works definitely could be interpreted as, if not maliciously racist, then culturally prejudiced. He was a product of a Eurocentric society, and it probably shows.

But over time, his views definitely changed. As he got older, he rejected the concept of racial discrimination, and as some have already said, was adamantly opposed to Apartheid and the racial superiority complex of the Nazis.

So if you're gonna be so quick to label him as a racist, at least take the time to consider that, as with most people, his views changed as he got older. Does that make his earlier views any less problematic? No. But it's not like he went around until his dying breath calling black people subhuman savages like some in this thread would lead you to believe.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Eh, more a lesson than anything else. Just because someone's a sheltered, xenophobic idiot in real life, doesn't mean you cant enjoy their creations. The ridiculousness of Lovecraft's case makes it a bit easier to separate the two than with other writers. Still, as far as racist authors go, Tolkien is not one that comes to mind in the sea of more overt examples.

Yeah, Tolkien's racism is mild compared to Lovecraft for sure. With Lovecraft I do find it hard to separate, though. Some of Lovecraft's letters, like the way he saw Slavic and Italian immigrants on the train, that disgust he felt, it was so deep, so urgent. It really feels similar to his descriptions of primal fear and terror of grotesque monsters in his work. He had such deep, almost paralyzing disgust and fear toward the world that carries through in his horror.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Damn people. So quick to throw labels around.

Tolkien's earlier works definitely could be interpreted as, if not maliciously racist, then culturally prejudiced. He was a product of a Eurocentric society, and it probably shows.

But over time, his views definitely changed. As he got older, he rejected the concept of racial discrimination, and as some have already said, was adamantly opposed to Apartheid and the racial superiority complex of the Nazis.

So if you're gonna be so quick to label him as a racist, at least take the time to consider that, as with most people, his views changed as he got older. Does that make his earlier views any less problematic? No. But it's not like he went around until his dying breath calling black people subhuman savages like some in this thread would lead you to believe.

What did he believe when wrote the books?

And why did he make the subhuman savages in his books dark skinned

 

[Mister Wolf]

...for whatever reason there are a number of examples of stories that involve half-woman half-spider creatures.

Just talking about games within the past few years then both

Spoiler

Dark Souls

and

Spoiler

Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

are examples that initially introduce the creature by showing the "attractive" half-woman before showing the full body of the creature.

I'll never understand this shit or why it seems to be a trope.

The legend of the spider woman Arachne dates back to Roman/Greek times.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Damn people. So quick to throw labels around.

Tolkien's earlier works definitely could be interpreted as, if not maliciously racist, then culturally prejudiced. He was a product of a Eurocentric society, and it probably shows.

But over time, his views definitely changed. As he got older, he rejected the concept of racial discrimination, and as some have already said, was adamantly opposed to Apartheid and the racial superiority complex of the Nazis.

So if you're gonna be so quick to label him as a racist, at least take the time to consider that, as with most people, his views changed as he got older. Does that make his earlier views any less problematic? No. But it's not like he went around until his dying breath calling black people subhuman savages like some in this thread would lead you to believe.

You must know something I don't. Did Tolkien say black people looked less troll-like in his old age? Otherwise, yeah, I'm fine with labeling him a racist.

 

[TheCthultist]

What did he believe when wrote the books?

And why did he make the subhuman savages in his books dark skinned

The first part I can't say, as I'm not him.
The second's simple enough though. Because dark is the opposite of light and he constantly used light as a symbol for good... You see it with tons of fiction writers. There's a reason so many monsters and evil creatures are given dark skin in so many different works of fiction. Its an easy way to denote some connection to the darkness of that world, whatever it may be.

It really feels similar to his descriptions of primal fear and terror of grotesque monsters in his work. He had such deep, almost paralyzing disgust and fear toward the world that carries through in his horror.

I'm almost positive the two were heavily connected. And its pretty disturbing to think of someone living like that. Thankfully, even his racism started dying out as he got older. There are serveral letters where he quite literally berates his younger self for being so narrow-minded and stupid.

 

[Albino_Yeti]

You must know something I don't. Did Tolkien say black people looked less troll-like in his old age? Otherwise, yeah, I'm fine with labeling him a racist.

So you're just gonna ignore his thoughts on Apartheid and Nazi racism? What somebody does later in life doesn't matter if they did something wrong earlier in life?

The first part I can't say, as I'm not him.
The second's simple enough though. Because dark is the opposite of light and he constantly used light as a symbol for good... You see it with tons of fiction writers. There's a reason so many monsters and evil creatures are given dark skin in so many different works of fiction. Its an easy way to denote some connection to the darkness of that world, whatever it may be.

This was my answer as well.

 

[TheCthultist]

The legend of the spider woman Arachne dates back to Roman/Greek times.

And as much as I love the trope thats developed from sexy spider girls, Tolkien would be rolling in his grave if he saw that. Dude was relentlessly terrified of spiders for all his life. Hence Ungoliant and Shelob and those nameless spiders in the Hobbit.

 

[miller.skippins]

Seems some of you guys are really seeing this world in binary black and white (literally).

i.e. If it doesn't fit your viewpoints, he's a xxx-ist. No question. In absolute terms.

Some of you don't even consider historical context. Culture. The Era it is in.

Why don't you brand the entire Europe as Racists as well since most people of that era thought that all non-white are savages.

You might as well brand the entire china in the 20th century as racists since they considered Caucasians as 'red devils with no morals'.

By your viewpoint, EVERYONE in history is a racist except yourself and your cohort.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

So you're just gonna ignore his thoughts on Apartheid and Nazi racism? What somebody does later in life doesn't matter if they did something wrong earlier in life?

This was my answer as well.

Yes, I am ignoring it because it is irrelevant. A person can be intellectually liberal but still have visceral prejudice toward black people. Racism is a spectrum, not a binary. It's nice he showed improvement on the spectrum. But the man saw black faces as bestial and frightening, which is the definition of prejudice and racism. It's really not complicated at all.

 

[muckymucks]

I'm being completely serious here: why does it always have to be black? There's other races that could use representation. Asians alone make up a huge majority. And what's the biggest demographic that needs more representation in general but also Lord of the Rings? WOMEN. It just seems like such an easy way to score some points: lets make a character black. Just once I'd like to see a Hispanic or Chinese or something else. Even in the movie industry, people end up asking for black version of things. The latest one is a black James Bond. Why? Fuck it, give me a Indian Englishman as James Bond. Give me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naveen_Andrews

 

[miller.skippins]

Yes, I am ignoring it because it is irrelevant. A person can be intellectually liberal but still have visceral prejudice toward black people. Racism is a spectrum, not a binary. It's nice he showed improvement on the spectrum. But the man saw black faces as bestial and frightening, which is the definition of prejudice and racism. It's really not complicated at all.

By your definition...EVERYONE...literally EVERYONE in history is a racist.

 

[JusDoIt]

Anyone can be a villain if you generalize them based on the worst ideas of the eras they lived in.

I never said he was a villain, I just said he was likely a racist. You can be a mostly decent person and still be racist. All you have to do is believe that race is anything but a social construct and that it in turn determines character. Believe those things and you're a racist, plain and simple. His work definitely seems to reflect such beliefs. And if his work represents his own personal racism, as I assume it does, he would not have been out of place because he lived in a time when racism and racialism was very, very, very common.

 

[miller.skippins]

I'm being completely serious here: why does it always have to be black? There's other races that could use representation. Asians alone make up a huge majority. And what's the biggest demographic that needs more representation in general but also Lord of the Rings? WOMEN. It just seems like such an easy way to score some points: lets make a character black. Just once I'd like to see a Hispanic or Chinese or something else. Even in the movie industry, people end up asking for black version of things. The latest one is a black James Bond. Why? Fuck it, give me a Indian Englishman as James Bond. Give me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naveen_Andrews

because the concept of forces of darkness = evil and forces of light = good. People feared darkness as being 'in the dark' means you can't see and we all have the inherent fear of the unknown.

 

[Gattsu25]

By your definition...EVERYONE...literally EVERYONE in history is a racist.

No. All people can hold prejudices or hold racist beliefs according to that logic.

Which...is true?

 

[Albino_Yeti]

Yes, I am ignoring it because it is irrelevant. A person can be intellectually liberal but still have visceral prejudice toward black people. Racism is a spectrum, not a binary. It's nice he showed improvement on the spectrum. But the man saw black faces as bestial and frightening, which is the definition of prejudice and racism. It's really not complicated at all.

Couldn't the reason simply be what theCthulist said?

Because dark is the opposite of light and he constantly used light as a symbol for good... You see it with tons of fiction writers. There's a reason so many monsters and evil creatures are given dark skin in so many different works of fiction. Its an easy way to denote some connection to the darkness of that world, whatever it may be.

And even if that's not the reason, and he really did view black faces as frightening because they were black, don't you think it's possible he retracted that view later in life? To use the same example more times than I probably should, going off of his disgust at the evils of the Nazis and the Apartheid, I think it's reasonable to say he shed most, if not all, of whatever racism he had before then.

 

[miller.skippins]

I never said he was a villain, I just said he was likely a racist. You can be a mostly decent person and still be racist. All you have to do is believe that race is anything but a social construct and that it in turn determines character. Believe those things and you're a racist, plain and simple. His work definitely seems to reflect such beliefs. And if his work represents his own personal racism, as I assume it does, he would not have been out of place because he lived in a time when racism and racialism was very, very, very common.

which lies in the conundrum....if racism is 'normal', is it still 'bad' from the historical context?

We can all play armchair analyst here and judge history based on our knowledge of the past and hindsight and our current learnings, but it's just all that...hindsight.

Can anyone of you here guarantee yourself that you will not be the same if you lived in that era too?

Our current leaning are the results of our era...just like Tolkien's. 'Judging' him based on current modern context just shows a serious lack of objectivity.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

i.e. If it doesn't fit your viewpoints, he's a xxx-ist. No question. In absolute terms.

No, he's a racist because he negatively prejudges black people based on their features.

Some of you don't even consider historical context. Culture. The Era it is in. Why don't you brand the entire Europe as Racists as well since most people of that era thought that all non-white are savages.

Sure, I agree. Most of humanity is quite prejudiced and always has been.

You might as well brand the entire china in the 20th century as racists since they considered Caucasians as 'red devils with no morals'.

Sounds good.

By your viewpoint, EVERYONE in history is a racist except yourself and your cohort.

I never said I was perfect. Racism is a spectrum, not a binary. But I see no reason to play your politically correct game and use gentle words to pretend Tolkien isn't prejudiced when the text is there in front of all our eyes.

 

[JusDoIt]

which lies in the conundrum....if racism is 'normal', is it still 'bad' from the historical context?

We can all play armchair analyst here and judge history based on our knowledge of the past and hindsight and our current learnings, but it's just all that...hindsight.

Can anyone of you here guarantee yourself that you will not be the same if you lived in that era too?

Our current leaning are the results of our era...just like Tolkien's. 'Judging' him based on current modern context just shows a serious lack of objectivity.

Yes it was still bad. My grandmother is still alive. She was born back when he was writing his racist ass books. It wasn't that long ago.

And before we get too moral relativist, slavery was once common (and still is): it's bad.

Murdering people because of their ethnicity was common (and still is): it's bad.

Racism was once common (and still is): it's bad.

 

[muckymucks]

because the concept of forces of darkness = evil and forces of light = good. People feared darkness as being 'in the dark' means you can't see and we all have the inherent fear of the unknown.

I don't buy that. I think black people get so much representation because they complain the most.

 

[miller.skippins]

No, he's a racist because he negatively prejudges black people based on their features.



Sure, I agree. Most of humanity is quite prejudiced and always has been.



Sounds good.



I never said I was perfect. Racism is a spectrum, not a binary. But I see no reason to play your politically correct game and use gentle words to pretend Tolkien isn't prejudiced when the text is there in front of all our eyes.

Politically correct? what the hell?

I am just saying you are judging tolkien based your own current leanings...which is a result of the current era....

He may be a racist then.......and do 95% of the people living in that era...which makes him what.........just a normal person of that era?

If so, what are we trying to discuss here? A fictional writer and language professor of his era writing a series of popular novels featuring viewpoints that is normal for his era?

Tolkien is not Voltaire or Socrates. He doesn't proclaimed himself to be anything other than a writer and a professor. I think it's the future generation and put him up on a higher pedestal for some reason and then judging him based on a 'standards' of modern times.....

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Our current leaning are the results of our era...just like Tolkien's. 'Judging' him based on current modern context just shows a serious lack of objectivity.

Dead wrong. Objectivity is finding a quote from his books where he compares black faces to "half-trolls," and then using terms that capture the meaning of that comparison. In this case, calling him "racist" and "prejudiced" is the only objective choice based in evidence. You are arguing for a subjective judgment, but you should note that prejudging people based on their faces (aka prejudice) and racism did exist in his time as well and were concepts he would have understood.

 

[Jocund]

I don't buy that. I think black people get so much representation because they complain the most.

We don't get "so much" representation.

 

[muckymucks]

We don't get "so much" representation.

More than every other race in the United States other than white.

Just once I'd like to see an Asian or Pakistani or Mexican who's a regular Joe whose race has nothing to do with why they're in the story. It rarely happens.

 

[miller.skippins]

I don't buy that. I think black people get so much representation because they complain the most.

I am not christians so correct me if i am wrong, but the concept of light (good) & dark (evil) seems to be a judeo-christian concept. No?

 

[AlexFlame116]

Hang on. So this:

Is also this?!

I've missed out on a lot...

...Where to even begin with this one...

Rachnera?

 

[JusDoIt]

More than every other race in the United States other than white.

Just once I'd like to see an Asian or Pakistani or Mexican who's a regular Joe whose race has nothing to do with why they're in the story. It rarely happens.

Maybe, just maybe, black people are underrepresented AND other ethnic minorities are also underrepresented.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Politically correct? what the hell?

I am just saying you are judging tolkien based your own current leanings...which is a result of the current era....

He may be a racist then.......and do 95% of the people living in that era...which makes him what.........just a normal person of that era?

If so, what are we trying to discuss here? A fictional writer and language professor of his era writing a series of popular novels featuring viewpoints that is normal for his era?

Tolkien is not Voltaire or Socrates. He doesn't proclaimed himself to be anything other than a writer and a professor. I think it's the future generation and put him up on a higher pedestal for some reason and then judging him based on a 'standards' of modern times.....

Some of us are using the text to show that he saw black faces negatively, and using the commonly-understood word that describes that phenomenon. Yes, racism was normal for his era. Yes, his view that black faces are troll-like was normal for his era. Most people can see that passage in Return of the King, acknowledge that it's fucked up, and move on.

 

[TheCthultist]

Hang on. So this:

Is also this?!

I've missed out on a lot...

Rachnera?

...I may be a bit bias on this subject...
By the sound of things they're writing it off as either some innate ability she's always had to assume a human form, or that coming in contact with the Ring gave her the ability. Either way, I'm all for seeing what weird direction they decide to take it down.

 

[Jocund]

More than every other race in the United States other than white.

That is a poor outlook to have. All non-white peoples are hurting for representation. Don't try and make it out to be "black people don't have it so bad" when we're all being ignored or otherwise misrepresented. That is disingenuous and skirting close to some oppression olympics shit.

 

[WrenchNinja]

You are allowed to like Lord of the Rings. It does not make you a bad person just because Tolkien held shitty beliefs. But trying to dismiss this stuff like it's not there kind of makes you look like an asshole.

 

[JusDoIt]

You are allowed to like Lord of the Rings. It does not make you a bad person just because Tolkien held shitty beliefs. But trying to dismiss this stuff like it's not there kind of makes you look like an asshole.

This. It's okay, y'all. I liked Shadow of Mordor too.

 

[muckymucks]

Maybe, just maybe, black people are underrepresented AND other ethnic minorities are also underrepresented.

Black people are not underrepresented, like, at all. Go to any American TV network Web site and find black actors, you'll spot some instantly. Now find an Indian or Hispanic actor. Good luck.

 

[Albino_Yeti]

...I may be a bit bias on this subject...
By the sound of things they're writing it off as either some innate ability she's always had to assume a human form, or that coming in contact with the Ring gave her the ability. Either way, I'm all for seeing what weird direction they decide to take it down.

Makes me question the authenticity of this quote from the article:

"We even have a Tolkien scholar working with us, Janet Croft, who helps us vet everything before just to make sure that we make the best possible game that's also true to this universe."

I kid I kid. I don't really mind, it's not like this game is trying to be canon, so why not have some fun with the lore.

 

[Aske]

Awesome news. Tolkien's mythology is a product of its time, and those who build on it badly need to give Middle Earth greater diversity if it's going to stay relevant. Design of the character looks great, and I hope we get to know more Haradrim/Southrons in future games.

 

[Xe4]

Tolkien was quite progressive for his time, from what I have read of him and his work. That doesn't mean he didn't have some unfortunate racial sentiments of the time creep into his work, although not to the same extent that many think. It's entirely possible to acknowledge the lesser aspects of a person's character while not wholly throwing out their work as "racist garbage" or whatever.

That said, I'm glad there's more interaction going on with the different people of Middle Earth in a constructive manner. Good on the game.

 

[Merc_]

Black people are not underrepresented, like, at all. Go to any American TV network Web site and find black actors, you'll spot some instantly. Now find an Indian or Hispanic actor. Good luck.

The Hispanic and Indian people I know would tell you to go to hell for trying to use them to dismiss the problems black people face when it comes to representation in the media. Get out of here with this oppression olympics shit.

 

[adversarial]

As a young black dude, I always thought that was curious - as I got older I figured Tolkien just made Sauron's minions the "black" guys of LOTR.

The Hispanic and Indian people I know would tell you to go to hell for trying to use them to dismiss the problems black people face when it comes to representation in the media. Get out of here with this oppression olympics shit.

Agree, that tired line of thought is played out.

 

[Dmax3901]

I don't buy that. I think black people get so much representation because they complain the most.

Yeah whinge, whinge, whinge am I right? It's not a competition dude.

 

[Mifec]

Hang on. So this:

Is also this?!

I've missed out on a lot...

Rachnera?

Also this

Spoiler

I'm glad they went full on fanfiction.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

That's putting it mildly

I lol'd.

 

[TheCthultist]

Also this

Spoiler

I'm glad they went full on fanfiction.

Yup. Someone working on the game clearly got a hold of those fanfictions that I certainly had nothing to do with. Well played, Monolith. Well played. That or they've been going through PlagueOfGripes' work recently...

 

[Mifec]

Yup. Someone working on the game clearly got a hold of those fanfictions that I certainly had nothing to do with. Well played, Monolith. Well played.

Spider pervert pls go

Spoiler

jk you do you my dude <3

 

[ResourcefulStar]

The legend of the spider woman Arachne dates back to Roman/Greek times.

Arachne was a regular woman who got turned into a regular spider. It's an etiological myth depicting the origin of spiders. Even Ovid didn't sex her spider form up.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Arachne was a regular woman who got turned into a regular spider. It's an etiological myth depicting the origin of spiders. Even Ovid didn't sex her spider form up.

Depictions of half women half spider started springing up because of the legend.