Glass Shark
Banned
I haven't played Mania yet, but from watching quite a few videos of it, I hope the Mario series doesn't take any lessons from it.
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What Mario can learn from Mania
- Thread starter Mr.Fletcher
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Captain Europe
Member
That's a bit unfair, all of the stages are new, it's just themes that are being reused. You could even say the same about the NSMB games, all the games are using the same themes.
Super Mario World Rom Hackers are gonna start developing a game
Once the game is almost done, Nintendo is gonna announce New Super Mario Bros Switch
Nintendo is gonna cancel the fanmade game
I would sacrifice every Sonic game if it meant Sega had not thrown all their other franchises to the dogs, so I hope Nintendo doesn't learn a fucking thing from Sonic Mania
I'm sure it's a neat little game, but Nintendo has lots of good 2D platformers already. Yes, even new ones. Mario doesn't necessarily need to star in one. Take your "i luv nostalgia" and cram it. I love Virtua FIghter and Virutal On and Jet Set Radio WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE FULLY FUNDED FANGAMES OF THOSE, HUH?
I'm sure it's a neat little game, but Nintendo has lots of good 2D platformers already. Yes, even new ones. Mario doesn't necessarily need to star in one. Take your "i luv nostalgia" and cram it. I love Virtua FIghter and Virutal On and Jet Set Radio WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE FULLY FUNDED FANGAMES OF THOSE, HUH?
Professor Beef
Banned
Lost Levels was already bad enough, we don't need a rehash
I think it's cute that people go on about Sonic Mania rehashing stages (ignoring the completely new zones), whilst acting like recent 2D Mario isn't effectively using what would be the equivalent of the same "zones" for practically every game.
Aesthetics are still a valid suggestion either way. You could argue that they did that with Mario Maker... but you'd be wrong. Sonic Mania's is getting so much praise for its audiovisual presentation not because it looks and sounds like what 2D Sonic did on a Genesis... but because it's looks and sounds like what 2D Sonic may have done on a Saturn or Neo Geo. It's fucking beautiful.
Are you suggesting that it's on Sega to make the fangames exist first?
Aesthetics are still a valid suggestion either way. You could argue that they did that with Mario Maker... but you'd be wrong. Sonic Mania's is getting so much praise for its audiovisual presentation not because it looks and sounds like what 2D Sonic did on a Genesis... but because it's looks and sounds like what 2D Sonic may have done on a Saturn or Neo Geo. It's fucking beautiful.
Are you suggesting that it's on Sega to make the fangames exist first?
TheDinoman
Member
Thing is, at its highest potential, 2D Mario is one of Nintendo's monster sellers. Compare its sales to 3D Mario.
Both NSMB DS and Wii sold like 30 million each. Insane.
NSMB 2 and U didn't do nearly as well, but I'd chalk that up to being A.) both their respective consoles they were on being nowhere near as appealing to the mass market as the Wii and DS were and B.) people getting tired of the NSMB brand and aesthetics. Considering how sucessful the Switch has been, if Nintendo put more effort into 2D Mario and made it feel "new" again, I'm sure they could have a big seller again.
I love the way, all the elements in DKCR and TF are connected to the background and make some physical sense. Which there would be the same kind of logic in Mario games.
3D World is my favorite Wii U game (I enjoyed it more than BOTW even), but IMO the set of classic Sonics (1, 2, 3K, CD and now Mania) is superior to the whole Mario series (including the 3d games) in the art and music departments, easily. More variety, more creativity, more personality and quality on average.
Of course they are inferior games for other reasons (mechanics, level design, polish, etc.), but not in the art and music departments...
Dark Cloud
Member
I can't wait for "What can Super Mario Odyssey learn from Sonic Forces?"...I mean come on.
Yeah, Tropical Freeze is a better answer for what Mario should be striving to match/surpass. That game feels ambitious in a way 2D Mario hasn't felt since World while also paying homage to the games that came before. It also has one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard in a 2D platformer.
TheDinoman
Member
Soundtrack wise, the following kick the shit out of anything from 3D World:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNxrS4F_HwM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WtwJPEJCA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Wa8ymE3qo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTqrzwz6c8c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZVSqQaRJfQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqD4zftv99M
I could keep going.
Isn't that what people are complaining about the NSMB series?
I mean im not in love in the series, don't even find the level design that great (although i never played NSMBU and people seem to agree that's the best one).
I just find that is extremely weird that people act like Sonic Mania is some new high bar for 2D games in presentation when is just reusing the classic Sonic style.
Shadic7700
Member
The salt coming from Mario fans and the "Sonic was never good" people in this thread is giving me life lol in regards to the OP if they can make Mario's soundtrack anywhere near a percentage to Sonic's I may consider finishing a Mario game for once...
Really? I suppose it depends on musical taste but I felt that the music from Mario Galaxy 1 pretty much shit on any platformer ever made. If we're just talking 2D Mario then I'd agree ...as Nintendo needs to start giving it as much effort as Mario Galaxy (or Mario Kart for that matter).
A big problem with the NSMB series is the game lacks charm. The music is whatever, the artwork is whatever, presentation is just whatever.
If you look at Yoshi's Island, SMW, etc. they definitely had a certain charm/appeal. If you look at Mario Odyssey or Galaxy, those games ooze charm, etc. People are comparing it to Sonic Mania because in a way, that's what they want for 2D Mario. They want pixel Mario, with throwbacks, great level design, spectacular music, etc.
As for Mania's presentation, Sonic Mania IMO looks gorgeous. The game has tons of animations, Sonic has never looked better, all the stages have really unique special effects (Press Garden Act 2 - Gorgeous), etc.
I don't understand some of the hate/disgust to OP's comments, or why people talk about Sonic Force/3D Sonic/etc.
OP literally says 2D Mario within the first 10 sentences ffs. Like, what is this post.
Mania and Generations wipe the floor with any of the music in 3D World as much as i like some of the music in it.
Like we're talking DKC2 tier music in Mania.
This is a really bizarre comparison and feels kind of forced. Like, "NSMB's art needs to stop being so stale, just look at Sonic Mania. A game that's basing it's art off of 20+ year old games."
The art and music in NSMB games is quite good, it's just people are tired of it after four entries and want a shake-up and that's a fine criticism, but it has nothing to do with what Sonic Mania is trying to achieve. If anything Sonic Mania is trying to do a nostalgic callback to older games which is something NSMB does all the time and so it seems like Sonic is learning from Mario if anything.
The art and music in NSMB games is quite good, it's just people are tired of it after four entries and want a shake-up and that's a fine criticism, but it has nothing to do with what Sonic Mania is trying to achieve. If anything Sonic Mania is trying to do a nostalgic callback to older games which is something NSMB does all the time and so it seems like Sonic is learning from Mario if anything.
Captain Europe
Member
Have you played Sonic Mania? The themes in Sonic Mania haven't been used for over 20 years, so while I see what you mean, it's different, people aren't tired of these themes(yet, except for maybe Green Hill Zone). Not to mention the new themes are truly fantastic. It's also pretty creative with new gimmicks and bosses. And I found it rather challenging actually, while I can just stroll through the NSMB games with ease.
I do agree with NSMBU being the best 2D Mario, but that's because it's basically Super Mario World HD with bigger levels, it doesn't really do anything that's creative or exciting. And the boring art and music doesn't really give me any incentive to replay it.
I think people just really want a new 2D Mario with beautiful sprite work and an amazing soundtrack, especially now after Sonic Mania being a thing.
Yeah, but the game was creepy.
I'm baffled at why you listed story telling because that was one of the worst parts of Mania for me. There's an attempt at zone transitions for awhile yes and clearly some type of story going on but it falls flat on it's face in terms of presenting itself (What the hell is that gem? Where exactly do the HBH come from/is it another dimension?/
while completely dropping transition scenes that it ruins it. I'd have rather they'd skip over all that if they weren't going to go all in on it.
What's going on in that final fight? Are Eggman and the heavies working together? Why do they show up out for no real reason in the final fight?
So, Nintendo should just keep releasing games into their mirror?
AuthenticM
Member
I want a new Super Mario Bros. that looks like this:
CrunchyFrog
Member
lolwat, you lack imagination and experience if you think SMM has everything that the platforming genre has and will ever offer. Not to mention it's Nintendo's constant iteration and mastery that has brought the genre to where it is today. There absolutely should and will be more 2D Marios that continue to change what the genre is capable of, and frankly I wouldn't wanna live in a world where there wasn't.
clarknova156
Member
Mario Maker innovated the 2D genre in my opinion far more than Mania could ever. If Nintendo makes Mario Maker 2 for the Switch that's all they have to do.
Nocturnowl
Member
I get the sentiments OP but some of these comparisons are a bit sticky so to speak.
Sonic has always been far more visually ambitious than Mario and in this case as slick as Mania's visuals are they are plucking heavily from the past themselves so Mania arguably suffers from a similar kind of familiarity issue.
Mario does have a few callbacks to his other adventures in recent titles, be it the Super Mario Kart inspired stage of 3D World, enemy based things like bringing back Reznor in NSMB2 (or sumo bro for U), sometimes you even get entire games mining the nostalgia HARD like 3D Land being clearly inspired in numerous ways by SMB3. While I get why you mention the idea of taking it further like "mario plays tennis for a boss" I think in general the main games keep things kinda simple.
I think with Mario it's a case where the nostalgia mining is sprinkled across all his titles in bits and pieces, even Paper Mario Colour Splash went in strong with a SMB3 themed stage with Super Paper style mechanics for instance.
The 2D titles could definitely use a boost and Sonic Mania shows a strong example of how you can pull this all together, in Mario's case it seems to be a rather deliberate form of safety though I'd hope that things are gonna shift now that the NSMB branch is (presumably) done.
Actually Mario Maker is practically the Sonic Mania for Mario in a way and it's a tremendous love letter.
Completely agreed though that 2DMario with a shaken up sense of style (that 3D Mario like Odyssey employs) is something that should be happening.
Also this as a more apt comparison for Mario, DK absolutely went and ate his lunch, just that Tropical Freeze is on something of a slow burn to this day at getting that recognition.
Sonic has always been far more visually ambitious than Mario and in this case as slick as Mania's visuals are they are plucking heavily from the past themselves so Mania arguably suffers from a similar kind of familiarity issue.
Mario does have a few callbacks to his other adventures in recent titles, be it the Super Mario Kart inspired stage of 3D World, enemy based things like bringing back Reznor in NSMB2 (or sumo bro for U), sometimes you even get entire games mining the nostalgia HARD like 3D Land being clearly inspired in numerous ways by SMB3. While I get why you mention the idea of taking it further like "mario plays tennis for a boss" I think in general the main games keep things kinda simple.
I think with Mario it's a case where the nostalgia mining is sprinkled across all his titles in bits and pieces, even Paper Mario Colour Splash went in strong with a SMB3 themed stage with Super Paper style mechanics for instance.
The 2D titles could definitely use a boost and Sonic Mania shows a strong example of how you can pull this all together, in Mario's case it seems to be a rather deliberate form of safety though I'd hope that things are gonna shift now that the NSMB branch is (presumably) done.
Actually Mario Maker is practically the Sonic Mania for Mario in a way and it's a tremendous love letter.
Completely agreed though that 2DMario with a shaken up sense of style (that 3D Mario like Odyssey employs) is something that should be happening.
Also this as a more apt comparison for Mario, DK absolutely went and ate his lunch, just that Tropical Freeze is on something of a slow burn to this day at getting that recognition.
What does this mean?
They do not care about their consumers since 1992.
What does that have to do with anything? There being nothing to learn from Mania translates into that? What?
Millions of dollars in games and merchandise from Pokemon and Amiibo says you're wrong
Cymbal Head
Banned
More interesting world themes.
That's about it, really. 2D Mario has had 20+ years of successfully iterating on a formula, during which time Sonic has suffered from false starts, ill-advised revivals, and evolutionary dead ends. It doesn't make any sense to compare them by using the same metric.
That's about it, really. 2D Mario has had 20+ years of successfully iterating on a formula, during which time Sonic has suffered from false starts, ill-advised revivals, and evolutionary dead ends. It doesn't make any sense to compare them by using the same metric.
Why is there nothing to learn, Red Devil?
How is that wrong? It means Nintendo struck a cord.
I already said it on my first post.
So Nintendo doesn't care about their audience, yet they make it look easy striking cords with their audience.
2 + 2 = 5
Patrick Young
Member
I want a new Super Mario Bros. that looks like this:
Yes, me too. I love that classic art. When they draw something new in this style it looks just as good.
Played through some stages with a friend because he basically forced me too, not a big fan of Sonic's game so i wont make an assessment regarding how fun it is but im sure it is since everyone is creaming about it, although i did find something pretty fun but i guess is spoilers so im gonna tag it
That boss fight that is a puyo puyo battle
I don't have any problems with the game quality just the idea that Mario needs to learn from a retro throwback game.
TheDinoman
Member
Maybe it's because Mania is probably the first Sonic game that could go toe to toe with Nintendo's platformers in a long time.
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