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[Bobby Roberts]

But Bobby, you realize that there are a ton of people, across several SW threads that discuss the parts of TFA that didn't work for them based on the movie we got and WITHOUT saying what they would have done differently, right?

And?

What are you even suggesting right now? That I'm some sort of hypocrite for not swooping in at every example that occurs in every conversation about every film on NeoGAF and holding those people accountable and/or congratulating and back-patting the people that do manage to give their opinion based on their own thoughts/feelings with relevant support from the film itself?

Nah man. Not only is that not my responsibility, that's not the bar that has to be maintained in order for my thoughts on the matter to remain valid, either.

You know what, as fun as these movie threads are and all, I don't believe I've ever seen anyone actually change their mind. Like ever. Are we all just wasting our time?

Of course we are.

I'm not even really being a smartass about that. Of course this is a giant waste of time. Why would it be otherwise?

It's nothing really wrong with it. You don't have to have reciepts on the number of minds changed by your weekend blah-blah on a gaming forum to justify the time spent, I don't think.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

And?

What are you even suggesting right now?

The issues that existed for you and I that brought down our enjoyment were ignored/not seen as a deal breaker with others that viewed Kong.

The reverse happened with TFA and in that, it is virtually no different in my mind. Fanfics aside, when people say I viewed the movie that was presented and based on that, I have this reaction and here's why, I accept it if valid.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The issues that existed for you and I that brought down our enjoyment were ignored/not seen as a deal breaker with others that viewed Kong.

The reverse happened with TFA and in that, it is virtually no different in my mind. Fanfics aside,

Why would you set them aside when that's very obviously a huge part of the point I'm making?

Of course if you remove like 85% of the argument I'm making the similarities you're trying to draw suddenly seem "virtually no different."

Jesus.

 

[Days like these...]

McCallum hasn't been there for like 5 years. Probably more like 7 or 8



But it absolutely is.

See this is kinda what I'm getting at with the CinemaSins/Talking Points part of the program here - people obviously don't have a real firm grasp on the concepts/ideas they're trying to swing at both the movie and (more importantly) the people who like it. It's often very simplistic, superficial and slipshod in terms of analysis & reasoning.

The schism is almost always, in this (neverending, ongoing) conversation regarding "originality/rehash/remake" in Star Wars, a question of whether someone wants to look at the film through the prism of "did it do what it was trying to do and how was it done" vs. "Did I not get what I wanted and how do I hit it for not even attempting the thing I was hoping for."

One avenue leads towards actually reviewing the movie
The other avenue leads towards pouting

The first avenue can lead to a bad review, absolutely. Because you can judge it for what it tried to do and failed
The other avenue is just sour grapes cheap cynical armchair executive bullshit that serves primarily to suggest "If it had just been what I wanted, everyone would have liked it even more."

People seem to not like the idea that millions of people got something they didn't want, and people really, really liked it anyway.

I really don't care that people liked it. Secondly, I didn't want anything in particular. Its about what I didn't want, which was a soft reboot and that's exactly what we got.

 

[RedSwirl]

I don't even mind that TFA redid the same plot structure as ANH. Phantom Menace did that. I mainly just didn't like Jakku and Starkiller Base. What was wrong with Lucas's idea of making Jakku (or whatever it would have been) a junk planet? And I think it's agreed upon that Starkiller Base was a massive ass-pull. I stand by my assertion that the prequels at least tried to have a sense of "newness" to their locations and details, however badly you think the execution went. Planets like Naboo, Kamino, and Coruscant looked cool as shit the first time we saw them.

However, I would still suggest Force Awakens to someone who has never seen Star Wars at all. All that rehashing means nothing to someone who never saw the OT to begin with, and TFA is a well-constructed movie.

I just hope VIII and IX don't get caught up in all this discussion about plot twists and all that crap. It doesn't need to try to be mysterious and surprising just for the sake being so in itself.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I really don't care that people liked it. Secondly, I didn't want anything in particular. Its about what I didn't want, which was a soft reboot and that's exactly what we got.

"This movie isn't what I wanted it to be and that's why it sucks."

That's hollow as hell. It's even more hollow because "what I wanted it to be" wasn't even a thing, it was absence of thing. It was negative of thing.

It's not even a "soft reboot." It's a fucking sequel.

"Soft Reboot" is just more execu-speak for a thing that already has a word

 

[Days like these...]

"This movie isn't what I wanted it to be and that's why it sucks."

That's hollow as hell. It's even more hollow because "what I wanted it to be" wasn't even a thing, it was absence of thing. It was negative of thing.

It's not even a "soft reboot." It's a fucking sequel.

"Soft Reboot" is just more execu-speak for a thing that already has a word

Yew right. Rehash then.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Why would you set them aside when that's very obviously a huge part of the point I'm making?

Of course if you remove like 85% of the argument I'm making the similarities you're trying to draw suddenly seem "virtually no different."

Jesus.

The 15% as you call it is what I have been addressing this entire time, man. The avenue that leads to an actual review as you put it it.

Those people are attacked the same in these threads as the ones that imagine Luke being the one that pulled the sword from the snow.

I don't really care about the fanfic people.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The 15% as you call it is what I have been addressing this entire time, man.

WHY.

Yew right. Rehash then.

Jesus.

If you guys wanted new shit, you'd be watching new shit. But you don't want new shit. You want Star Wars. You want to watch and rewatch Star Wars.

Star Wars is going to have Star Wars shit in it.

That's the fuckin' point of it.

 

[Monocle]

We're talking about force users that can have full lightsaber battles on life support. Derive strength from anger and hatred and can (now) defeat people who were previously kicking our ass by attuning with the force.

Darth Vader was the chosen one. His exceptional potential was dampened but not extinguished by his life support suit. He benefited from direct training by some of the greatest Jedi who ever lived, and later one of the greatest Sith lords who ever lived. So of course this ravaged husk of a man could still kick ass.

Kylo Ren is an undisciplined student. A wet-behind-the-ears sorta-kinda Dark Jedi. Even his master confirmed his training was incomplete. The dark side doesn't flow through emotional instability. It's channeled through pain and rage. Kylo was trying to make it work for him during the final duel by banging on his wound and trying to center himself, but he was visibly losing it.

If he was so injured he shouldn't have beaten finn and driven rey to a corner in the first place.

Fatigue is a thing. Kylo's decline plays out in a very clear and logical way if you pay attention to the visual cues. Throughout the battle he's losing control, losing strength. Honestly it's all right there on the screen. There is no irregularity to explain away here.

"That doesn't look like anything to me."

For all the threads that have been on this movie, to say that is the only valid criticism is...an interesting take.

It's not the only valid criticism but it's the one that resonates most with me, since I really do think Starkiller Base was one derivative element too much.

 

[FTF]

I loved it and saw it in theaters like 6 times ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Though I've only watched it on blu ray a couple of times for whatever that's worth.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

If you guys wanted new shit, you'd be watching new shit. But you don't want new shit. You want Star Wars. You want to watch and rewatch Star Wars.

Star Wars is going to have Star Wars shit in it.

That's the fuckin' point of it.

What a simplification of what people want.

Some people want new SW experiences that don't instantly feel like shit they already saw. After 40 years of a ton of different experiences across various media, that is what some of us want. I knew they would play it safe with Episode 7:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=185104667

...but not THAT safe.

If Episode 8 is different than anything we have seen in a SW film (in terms of set pieces, moments, story) it will go on to further highlight for people how derivative 7 was.

It's not the only valid criticism but it's the one that resonates most with me, since I really do think Starkiller Base was one derivative element too much.

Thanks for the clarification. I was like...huh?!

 

[Monocle]

You know what, as fun as these movie threads are and all, I don't believe I've ever seen anyone actually change their mind. Like ever. Are we all just wasting our time?

Changing people's minds isn't the only purpose. Sometimes it's nice just to see things from a different angle.

Which is a possibility that manifests only in the posts that aren't self-indulgent shitflings.

"This garbage is shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!"

Fascinating.

 

[jett]

I've only managed to watch this movie once, when it came out in theaters. I tried watching it once on video but it really couldn't hold my interest. It is what it is.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Changing people's minds isn't the only purpose. Sometimes it's nice just to see things from a different angle.

My take away from this thread was the Jedi Force Dash and its associated fuckery.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

What a simplification of what people want.

Some people want new SW experiences that don't instantly feel like shit they already saw.

They want kinda-new shit in Star Wars form. And by "kinda new" I mean they usually want "a thing I saw somewhere else with a Star Wars skin applied to it"

They want familiarity.

If they wanted new shit, they'd watch something else instead of watching Star Wars for the 50th time.

There's nothing wrong with wanting familiarity, either. In fact, wanting familiarity is perfectly OK. It's fine! It's good!

But then again, I'm not the one putting forward the notion that new is the primary metric by which a thing has value and worth, either. And if you value "new" that highly (and I do sometimes!) then seeking it out somewhere in the 40 year old multi-billion film series and being upset when you don't find it as much as you want seems weird to me.

 

[bionic77]

I loved it and saw it in theaters like 6 times ¯_(&#12484_/¯

Though I've only watched it on blu ray a couple of times for whatever that's worth.

You don't get it dude.

It doesn't have the subtlety and genius of a movie like Avatar.

I also loved The Force Awakens. It was a Star Wars overload for me. But I am just an ignorant asshole and don't have the fine movie sensibilities of the rest of GAF where apparently Forest Gump and Avatar are masterpieces.

 

[opoth]

The OT fans earned a throwback film after enduring what Lucas did with the PT. It's not an ANH ripoff, its a tribute to the OT in whole. As has been pointed out, Kylo Rens defeat makes sense if you weren't making posts calling TFA a ripoff while you were in tje middle of watching it.

Millennials, sorry the PT sucked. ROTJ was maybe the third film I ever saw in the theater as a child and I had SW fever bad again from when Heir to the Empire came out up until 1999. TFA is finally what made me excited about Star Wars again. I can't wait to see what Rian does now that JJ got me back under the tent with a movie that looked and sounded like proper Star Wars.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I want something as iconic as the trench run, Battle Of Hoth and/ Endor in this trilogy.

We are a 1/3 of the way through and have yet to get that. I guess we will see.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

But Rogue One's ground/space battle is already better than the ground/space battle in Jedi.

Better shot, edited, choreographed, and cut.

 

[bionic77]

But Rogue One's ground/space battle is already better than the ground/space battle in Jedi.

Better shot, edited, choreographed, and cut.

Ground battle, yes.

Space Battle? Hell no. This hot take stinks worse than Bantha poodoo!

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Avatar are masterpieces.

Where on THIS NeoGAF is Avatar praised like that by tons of people?!?

Wait...are you trolling, bionic? You know sending those bad vibes into the universe is gonna cause Lonzo misfortune, right?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

But Rogue One's ground/space battle is already better than the ground/space battle in Jedi.

Better shot, edited, choreographed, and cut.

I don't remember a single thing about it except the Blind Not Jedi walking into laser fire to press a button.

Wait...the space part had a Not Ackbar coordinating a Not Battle Of Not Endor. I remember that.

 

[bionic77]

Where on THIS NeoGAF is Avatar praised like that by tons of people?!?

Wait...are you trolling, bionic? You know sending those bad vibes into the universe is gonna cause Lonzo misfortune, right?

Big Ballers make their own destiny!*


* this post was made while wearing a pair of offficial Big Baller footwear.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Big Ballers make their own destiny!*

* this post was made while wearing a pair of offficial Big Baller footwear.

If it wasn't the slippers, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Space Battle? Hell no. This hot take stinks worse than Bantha poodoo!

It's not a hot take.

Not only are the visuals improved (of course) but the actual choreography and intercutting of the space battle are vastly improved. You can track individual ships/squads from shot to shot, and their missions/objectives are not only spelled out, but you see what it is they're trying to do on those missions.

In Return of the Jedi, most of the space battle is just disconnected shots of ships zooming around and exploding.

In Rogue One, even when it's just ships zooming around and exploding, it's put together much more cleanly, and everything seems much more... holistic? It's a weird word, but that's the one that jumped to mind so I'll go with it.

Basically - pretty much every piece of the space battle fits with all the other pieces. They're not disconnected from each other. One leads to the next leads to the next and you can follow that action, and that action is all coherent and more than that, exciting. It's much more logistically complicated as an action setpiece and it's execution is improved from 83. As miraculous as Jedi's battle still is considering the tools they had to work with - this one is better in pretty much every way.

I don't remember a single thing about it except the Blind Not Jedi walking into laser fire to press a button.

Wait...the space part had a Not Ackbar coordinating a Not Battle Of Not Endor. I remember that.

See this is a hot take.

(key: Hot = boring)

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I don't remember a single thing about it except the Blind Not Jedi walking into laser fire to press a button.

Wait...the space part had a Not Ackbar coordinating a Not Battle Of Not Endor. I remember that.

Not even the Hammerhead knocking the two Star Destroyers into each other or the Devastator coming out of hyperspace and blowing several Rebel ships away? C'mon.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

See this is a hot take.

(key: Hot = boring)

Naw, I just liked the Mon Calamari led space Battle when they did it the first time in 1983.

No need to try and minimize it with the overused "hot take".

Not even the Hammerhead knocking the two Star Destroyers into each other or the Devastator coming out of hyperspace and blowing several Rebel ships away? C'mon.

Actually, yes, not that you mention it, the Hammerhead sequence made me laugh...it wasn't a good laugh.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I'm not trying to minimize it. You made it small all by yourself.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I'm not trying to minimize it. You made it small all by yourself.

👍

 

[bionic77]

It's not a hot take.

Not only are the visuals improved (of course) but the actual choreography and intercutting of the space battle are vastly improved. You can track individual ships/squads from shot to shot, and their missions/objectives are not only spelled out, but you see what it is they're trying to do on those missions.

In Return of the Jedi, most of the space battle is just disconnected shots of ships zooming around and exploding.

In Rogue One, even when it's just ships zooming around and exploding, it's put together much more cleanly, and everything seems much more... holistic? It's a weird word, but that's the one that jumped to mind so I'll go with it.

Basically - pretty much every piece of the space battle fits with all the other pieces. They're not disconnected from each other. One leads to the next leads to the next and you can follow that action, and that action is all coherent and more than that, exciting. It's much more logistically complicated as an action setpiece and it's execution is improved from 83. As miraculous as Jedi's battle still is considering the tools they had to work with - this one is better in pretty much every way.



See this is a hot take.

(key: Hot = boring)

There is something I greatly prefer about the way space battles look in the OT movies. Especially in Empire and Jedi. I just love the way the ships move.

CG battles don't seem to have the same weight or flow as I get from watching them move those models around each other.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Force Awakens is not going to be something you watch or remember much of 10 years from now. That's 100% fine. Y'all wanted lightning in a bottle again. You will be disappointed.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Naw, I just liked the Mon Calamari led space Battle when they did it the first time in 1983.

No need to try and minimize it with the overused "hot take".



Actually, yes, not that you mention it, the Hammerhead sequence made me laugh...it wasn't a good laugh.

"It was the same battle Lol. I liked it better the first" is absolutely a hot take given the space battles only similarity is that both take place in space.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

CG battles don't seem to have the same weight or flow as I get from watching them move those models around each other.

It shouldn't really matter whether they're physical models or CG models since the models themselves aren't usually moving, the camera is moving around them. So whatever "weight" you're feeling, I don't know where you're feeling it. It's a model on a stick with a camera sliding around it

The flow in Rogue One's battle is much more improved than the one in Return of the Jedi, I feel. In basically every way.

Ships felt "heavy" enough to me, I dunno.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

"It was the same battle Lol. I liked it better the first" is absolutely a hot take given the space battles only similarity is that both take place in space.

I admit I mentally checked out when Not Ackbar started commanding the battle so maybe all the originality of the battle was lost on me.

I would say I would go back and watch it again but as I have said in other threads, I am done with rewatches of both films. Two times with each was more than enough.

We'll see what 8 gives us.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Why do ships gotta feel heavy thus clunky? That's like saying weight / clunky mechs are better than agile ones. It makes no difference because the world reacts accordingly.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

We'll see what 8 gives us.

I dunno why, you've established as soon as you see something remotely familiar to you, you're just gonna check out mentally and come up with snoozable hot takes for your trip back to GAF after the theater.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

We'll see what 8 gives us.

There's a walker battle scene so I shouldn't bother.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I dunno why, you've established as soon as you see something remotely familiar to you, you're just gonna check out mentally and come up with snoozable hot takes for your trip back to GAF after the theater.

I have a feeling Rian Johnson will give us a memorable set of sequences. I think I am fair when it comes to after the theater flash reviews:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=189837032

Like I said, we will see.

 

[RyanW]

Hold up. People hate the Rogue One space battle? Dafuq?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Heyyy, look at you asking me questions in that post.

What kind, rose-tinged halcyon days those were

 

[Subpar Spatula]

There's a walker battle scene so I shouldn't bother.

God dammit. Why can't they mame a different giant machine to shoot people with?

No. Fuck that. They already shot peoplr with giant machines before.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Heyyy, look at you asking me questions in that post.

What kind, rose-tinged halcyon days those were

I know. For the record, you were right. I really hoped they would have given the MVS character a nice little added prescence but all well.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Hold up. People hate the Rogue One space battle? Dafuq?

Hold up.

Who said they hated it?

Dafuq?

 

[Vice]

I want something as iconic as the trench run, Battle Of Hoth and/ Endor in this trilogy.

We are a 1/3 of the way through and have yet to get that. I guess we will see.

A scene(s) in TFA wil become as iconic as those after 30-40 years of the film and its scenes being shoved down peoples throats in parodies, TV, games, etc.

 

[Mighty Chin]

Ground battle, yes.

Space Battle? Hell no. This hot take stinks worse than Bantha poodoo!

The Space battle was great. The hammerhead ship was original and never seen before in a SW movie.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

A scene(s) in TFA wil become as iconic as those after 30-40 years of the film and its scenes being shoved down peoples throats in parodies, TV, games, etc.

Rey grabbing the saber is already up there so far as Star Warsiest Star Wars moments that ever Star Wars'd.

 

[Meowster]

The Star Destroyers crashing into each other was pretty awesome stuff. Aside from the whole escape from the second Death Star, I would generally agree that the space battle in Rogue One is better and a series highlight.

 

[RyanW]

Hold up.

Who said they hated it?

Dafuq?

I'm sorry. "Strong distaste."

 

[finowns]

A scene(s) in TFA wil become as iconic as those after 30-40 years of the film and its scenes being shoved down peoples throats in parodies, TV, games, etc.

Nope. What scenes in particular do you have in mind? I can think of a couple for A New Hope but none for TFA, although I forget most of the movie.