Why would they start now?
And if they are gonna use the design space opened up in a future set, why not nerf the card then? Doing it now just dumpsters the class and makes the meta less diverse.
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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Why would they start now?
And if they are gonna use the design space opened up in a future set, why not nerf the card then? Doing it now just dumpsters the class and makes the meta less diverse.
Dio Brando
Banned
i see. thanks!
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
neither is dark ritual thankfully as those two cards would ruin modern. There are staples in mtg reprinted almost continuously (slmody none of them are in standard right now) but those are generally cards for the sideboard and nowhere near as powerful as win axe.I think the "too good to be in Standard forever" argument is ludicrous. People talk about MtG having an ever-evolving list to use in their Standard format tournaments, but there are still card staples that never leave. MtG has to reprint cards like Giant Growth, Counterspell, and Dark Ritual ever set because no matter how much a class changes, there are some cards that are just part of a class's core identity. I would argue that Fiery War Axe is THAT card for Warrior more than anything else.
And of course I look it up to check myself and find out that Counterspell isn't part of the core blue set, lol. But that just makes me really sad.
Not to mention the fluid colours of mtg compared to the rigid classes of hearthstone or the number of cards wizards puts out per year compared to blizzard.
Terrible, terrible comparison.
Karsticles
Member
If FWA was getting Hall of Fame'd, that would make a lot more sense. They could even wait until an expansion and nerf FWA while giving a more "fair" replacement. Both of those options make sense and are reasonable. Gutting a class's key card right after an expansion doesn't.
Also, do you know what Blizzard didn't catch enough shit for? Basically printing an entire expansion of garbage themes that don't work and no one wants to play.
LOOK AT THIS SHIT
-Mages got a bunch of "freeze" effects - who would play this trash? Low tempo AND low value - where do I sign up?
-Rogues got weapon buff cards without any weapons, and random card effects no one cares about! Only Shadowblade and DK Valeera are worthwhile (Plague Scientist seeing play in Wild).
-Shaman gets a bunch of freeze cards no one wants or cares about.
-Warrior is hilarious - hurt all your own minons in lots of different ways and get some 2/2s. Wow, amazing. Some people tried to play this deck after the expansion, and I just watched them kill their own minions for a few turns before I wiped it and won. What's the point?
4/9 classes got trash this expansion. Warlock, Druid, Hunter, Priest, got a lot of great stuff (Hunter really only because of the new Hunter Giants deck - all of the new cards work SO well for it; once that's gone Hunter will be trash again). Paladin is mostly trash.
This was basically an expansion you pre-ordered for Deathknight Emotes.
The actual card set is mostly awful, which is why the only decks we're seeing are Un'goro retouches.
I hate how all other-minion buff cards work with HS's health mechanics. Blizzard talked about how Murloc Warleader's +1 health had unintuitive interactions, and that same criticism applies to other cards with similar effects. Patches is still a problem, but not as much as he used to be because Blizzard power crept Druid and Murlocs to catch up.
I'm playing all of my Wild Warrior decks without FWA and I feel so handicapped against aggro. Running Blood Razor, Deathlord, Sludge Belcher, Armorsmith, Whirlwind, and Unstable Ghoul and still I'm getting overrun by Pirate Warrior.
The double sin of Skulking Geist is that it ruins a good number of other decks that rely on 1-mana cards. The collateral damage is unacceptable. Combo Priest was infuriating to play against, but it shouldn't die because Jade Druid was too strong. I hated Eater of Secrets because everyone used in Wild to punish Secret Paladin and Freeze Mage, and I was just trying to play a normal Hunter deck! As a result, my Tier 3 deck was getting incidentally teched against.
I haven't played MtG in years - I didn't know they went away from all that fun stuff.
Also, do you know what Blizzard didn't catch enough shit for? Basically printing an entire expansion of garbage themes that don't work and no one wants to play.
LOOK AT THIS SHIT
-Mages got a bunch of "freeze" effects - who would play this trash? Low tempo AND low value - where do I sign up?
-Rogues got weapon buff cards without any weapons, and random card effects no one cares about! Only Shadowblade and DK Valeera are worthwhile (Plague Scientist seeing play in Wild).
-Shaman gets a bunch of freeze cards no one wants or cares about.
-Warrior is hilarious - hurt all your own minons in lots of different ways and get some 2/2s. Wow, amazing. Some people tried to play this deck after the expansion, and I just watched them kill their own minions for a few turns before I wiped it and won. What's the point?
4/9 classes got trash this expansion. Warlock, Druid, Hunter, Priest, got a lot of great stuff (Hunter really only because of the new Hunter Giants deck - all of the new cards work SO well for it; once that's gone Hunter will be trash again). Paladin is mostly trash.
This was basically an expansion you pre-ordered for Deathknight Emotes.
No regrets! =D
Except that Priest win condition is so goddamn good that it deleted Jaraxxus from play. That's ridiculous.
I hate how all other-minion buff cards work with HS's health mechanics. Blizzard talked about how Murloc Warleader's +1 health had unintuitive interactions, and that same criticism applies to other cards with similar effects. Patches is still a problem, but not as much as he used to be because Blizzard power crept Druid and Murlocs to catch up.
I'm playing all of my Wild Warrior decks without FWA and I feel so handicapped against aggro. Running Blood Razor, Deathlord, Sludge Belcher, Armorsmith, Whirlwind, and Unstable Ghoul and still I'm getting overrun by Pirate Warrior.
Personally, I hate all "silver bullet" game design. Tech cards that help with matchups are fine, but I really hate losing a match because my opponent just so happens to have a card that auto-wins against my deck. Why is that ok? That removes all of the skill in the match. Golakka Crawler is bullshit. If Pirates are a probem, then fix Pirates. Don't force me to include a card that auto-shits on Pirates while simultaneously ruining the fun of every Pirate player I come across.
The double sin of Skulking Geist is that it ruins a good number of other decks that rely on 1-mana cards. The collateral damage is unacceptable. Combo Priest was infuriating to play against, but it shouldn't die because Jade Druid was too strong. I hated Eater of Secrets because everyone used in Wild to punish Secret Paladin and Freeze Mage, and I was just trying to play a normal Hunter deck! As a result, my Tier 3 deck was getting incidentally teched against.
Good. I want it everywhere like DK Anduin.
Neutrals in HS are supposed to be the "other color". RIP those classic cards, though.
I haven't played MtG in years - I didn't know they went away from all that fun stuff.It sucks that Jaraxxus is weak to a particular win condition but oh well. Just means that if Priest is in the meta you change your win condition with the Control Warlock to Leeroy/Faceless/Emperor. Jaraxxus is just one card and doesn't define the Control Warlock archetype, there have been many meta where Jaraxxus was cut because the aggression was too much for it (people used to tell me in those meta that Jaraxxus was bad but me no care, me still play Jaraxxus).
Just hope they don't draw Skulking Geist for your Power Overwhelming AYYY LMAO!
You can just run King's Defender in Wild instead of War Axe. 3 mana 3/2 is still fine. Especially if you have Ghouls, Deathlords and Belchers.
I think if you can't beat aggro with those cards then you need to add Doomsayer in the 2 mana slot. Probably going to be the go to 2 mana control card for Warriors.
Just hope they don't draw Skulking Geist for your Power Overwhelming AYYY LMAO!
You can just run King's Defender in Wild instead of War Axe. 3 mana 3/2 is still fine. Especially if you have Ghouls, Deathlords and Belchers.
Yeah but if they won't have 2 mana FWA either, then you will be better off against Pirate Warrior!
I think if you can't beat aggro with those cards then you need to add Doomsayer in the 2 mana slot. Probably going to be the go to 2 mana control card for Warriors.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I DO think Warrior needs FWA to be successful, and there's a reason it's called "Winaxe". This card lets Warrior establish the early board control it needs to do anything in a control or midrange deck against aggro because everything they have is reactive and weak.
I think the "too good to be in Standard forever" argument is ludicrous. People talk about MtG having an ever-evolving list to use in their Standard format tournaments, but there are still card staples that never leave. MtG has to reprint cards like Giant Growth, Counterspell, and Dark Ritual ever set because no matter how much a class changes, there are some cards that are just part of a class's core identity. I would argue that Fiery War Axe is THAT card for Warrior more than anything else.
And of course I look it up to check myself and find out that Counterspell isn't part of the core blue set, lol. But that just makes me really sad.
Anyway, I think each class SHOULD have staples that define it. Otherwise they just have to reprint a FWA-equivalent over and over because the entire class is currently designed around its presence.
Sidenote: props to Blizzard for avoiding Northrend as Naxx 2.0. The deathrattles mostly suck ass, but at least we didn't get Sludge Belcher 2.0 and such.
Just check the latest VS Reaper Report. Lucky for you, Murloc Paladin is very strong right now.
The too good in standard argument is too real. They want it to be a place where the meta changes. Cards that are standard forever that prevent that from actually happening are cards that need to be evaluated for change. It's simple. It has nothing to do with MTG and reprints are frankly a different issue for a physical card game because as old sets get older they become rarer to find. Digital doesn't have that issue, infinite prints on demand.
Some staples are fine. But sometimes the disadvantages those cards bring to the format out weight the negatives. FWA being one of the best cards in the game, definitely top 3 two drops, and being of such high auto-include status, and impeding card design in other respects because it's such a perfect answer to nearly every 1-2 drop in the game... there is just enough disadvantages to have it rotate or nerfed.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
lol guy in the semi finals of Dreamhack thinks he can trigger his own paladin secret.
Karsticles
Member
Jaraxxus is now weak to pretty much everything. If you check the Wild VS Report that came out today, a grand total of zero Warlock meta decks use Jaraxxus. He's trash. He loses to all of the combo decks, he loses to Mill Rogue, he loses to DK Anduin, and he loses to Jade Druid. T R A S H.
You mean like that other class that runs a 3-mana 3/2 weapon and everyone agrees it's the worst in the game? lol
It isn't about the value of the weapon. Sure, you can run King's Defender. But I can't wait until turn 3 to pop out a weapon. Murlocs kill me on turn 4 or 5. The game is already over when they high roll, and I'm killing my first minion on turn 3 because Warrior has no early game plays outside of FWA. THAT is why this is bad.
If Warrior was the only aggro deck, that would be true. But the reason FWA nerf is so bad is that it keeps Warrior alive against all of the other shit it faces. Now Warrior will be overrun by aggro druids (who don't need Innervate to rock the board early on) and Murloc Paladins, and it has zero tools to combat that situation.Yeah but if they won't have 2 mana FWA either, then you will be better off against Pirate Warrior!
I think if you can't beat aggro with those cards then you need to add Doomsayer in the 2 mana slot. Probably going to be the go to 2 mana control card for Warriors.
Non-Pirate Warrior is dead in Standard and Wild, so I guess my argument is kind of silly. But I actually hit rank 1 last month with Quest Warrior, and FWA is an integral part of that deck staying alive until the mid-game when you complete your quest. I have 0 confidence that Quest Warrior is playable with this change, though I would love to be wrong, of course.
I won't believe this without video.
Like I said, they could have gone the Hall of Fame route instead of deleting the card from existence. Or they could have done this before an expansion releases to cover up the gaps. That would at least make sense. I get that FWA is a crazy good card, but right now the entire class is balanced around that crazy good card.
I mean...have we learned nothing from Power Overwhelming? lol Straight-up deleted a class from play by getting rid of its key card in maintaining board. Now they are doing the same thing to Warrior and people are defending it. How is Zoo doing now, by the way?!
Renolock was Tier 1 pre-Un'goro, and Tier 2 during Un'goro. Definitely not terrible. Very playable.
Jaraxxus has been terrible for a year though. I mean it always lost to combo decks and aggro decks... usually fatigue/mill decks too. Your winrate in the year would've been much higher if you didn't play Jaraxxus. The new DK Warlock is just strictly better than Jaraxxus right now anyway.
And all of what you said is why I recommend putting in Doomsayer.
Wouldn't be surprised that in a couple of years Doomsayer is Hall of Famed too once the aggro players cry hard enough about it.
And all of what you said is why I recommend putting in Doomsayer.
Wouldn't be surprised that in a couple of years Doomsayer is Hall of Famed too once the aggro players cry hard enough about it.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
neutrals are artifact creatures not other colours. Complete with not having any spells and doing stuff class (i.e. coloured) cards do but ever so slightly worse.Neutrals in HS are supposed to be the "other color". RIP those classic cards, though.
The last time counterspell was in standard was 14 years ago, dark ritual hasn't been in standard for 16
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
They chose nerf because it's a HOF card. It's not deleted. Far from it. Plenty of decks do actually run 3 mana 3/2 weapons with no benefit from their text at all. That OTK paladin deck, face hunter, aggro paladin...
For all we know they plan on adding a 3/2 "can't attack face" card next set. This is the equivalent of your ask that they do that to FWA. It's not the equivalent of HOF FWA but at least that weapon would be in wild forever at that point and a tuned down version of FWA is probably even better than HOF.
No idea what they'll do but it's within the range of reasonable possibilities.
Speaking of zoolock, I just lost to one. The problem there is not the loss of PO, the class wasn't really that popular in MSG either. The problem is PWar, druid, and patches. Things that lock zoo out from being a strong tempo start beat zoo and pwar and druid do that really well. Innervate for druid. N'zoth's first mate for pwar (and patches and FWA of course).
Karsticles
Member
Doomsayer is so unreliable without a Frost Nova or Vanish to help it out. Murloc Paladin kills it on curve for free.
Turn 1: Murloc Tidecaller
Turn 2: Rockpool Hunter
Turn 3: Weapon or Murloc Warleader
You either have to play it after their first turn or coin it out early. Pretty much every aggro deck annihilates Doomsayer on curve these days. I can only make him work if I burn coin.
LOL. Well, the last time I played was the Urza cycle. It has been longer than I thought!
There are 0 reasons to run FWA over King's Defender in Wild. It's a dead card. Even Pirate Warrior runs 2 taunts that you might get the +1 durability from.
Both of those Paladin decks run Divine Shield minions that can get +1/+1 from the weapon. Face Hunter is a dead deck, and partially because Eaglehorn is a shit card unless you can proc a Secret.
If they are going to add a 3/2 "can't attack face" card next set, then they should have waited on this nerf. It's not killing anyone for them to wait. It's going to hurt a lot of decks that they're doing it now. Or hell, just change FWA to have that text!
I'm still waiting on those amazing Rogue weapons that Blade Flurry was deleted for!
I can climb the ladder with Demonlock, which is ~80% Zoo cards, just fine in Wild. Well, I could before Northrend. I haven't played it since then. I'll actually try it now and see what happens.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I dislike this comparison being brought up so much. Those decks have good 1 and 2 drops.
Pirate Warriors have good 1 drops
Every single Hunter deck still runs Eaglehorn. Eaglehorn has and never will be a bad card.
Hunter is bad right now because of obvious reasons (shit design class, can't be relevant when better aggro/curve decks exist). Eaglehorn isn't one of those reasons.
And yeah 3 mana War Axe hurts PW a lot specifically because they don't have enough 2 drops and they have too many 3 drops. I don't even know what they can slot in the 2 mana slot now, maybe Direwolf Alpha, maybe Twisting Worgen. In Wild PW still has Ship's Cannon on curve.
Hunter is bad right now because of obvious reasons (shit design class, can't be relevant when better aggro/curve decks exist). Eaglehorn isn't one of those reasons.
And yeah 3 mana War Axe hurts PW a lot specifically because they don't have enough 2 drops and they have too many 3 drops. I don't even know what they can slot in the 2 mana slot now, maybe Direwolf Alpha, maybe Twisting Worgen. In Wild PW still has Ship's Cannon on curve.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Well MTG has changed a lot since. They did recenty have troubles with standard of their own because they toned down the amount of powerful reprints and in particular efficient answers they printed.
2 mana heal 7 is still decent.
kylecoley182
Banned
When are we going get a new adventure?
Not in the near future. They've shelved paid adventures for now. Free single player adventure with every expansion from now on.
kylecoley182
Banned
ahh okay and at least it's something
Maybe because they are also a class with ineffective removal tools early. What else is Hunter supposed to use to help with early board control?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
All you think about is wild. I am talking about standard. Who cares if FWA is a dead card in wild? It joins the ranks of many dead cards in wild.
Paladin does not run the 3/2 for divine shield synergy. I can promise you that. And eaglehorn bow is ran in both midrange and face decks without secret synergy. My point is that 3/2 for 3 is not an unplayable card.
We already know why they didn't change the text. It's a basic card, meant to be introductory. This is information already known from the blog post itself. I just noticed I said it's a HOF card where I meant to say it's a basic card in the previous post.
We all know blade flurry was nerfed because they wanted to take rogue in a different direction that AOE wasn't going to be a part of.
You are playing the wrong class if you are asking for removals for Hunter.
You want board control with Hunter?
You play Alley Cat turn 1 into turn 2 Razormaw into turn 3 Eaglehorn/Animal Companion.
Next expansion you will be doing the same shit as right now just with different art on the minions.
Web Spinner into Mad Scientist/Knife Juggler.
Fiery Bat into Huge Toad.
etc.
Karsticles
Member
In the past, you've said that Ancestral Recall is a bad card, even though every Shaman deck ran it at the time. Wouldn't you agree that whether a card gets used isn't the standard? Rather, Eaglehorn is the ONLY option Hunters have, and so it gets used. That doesn't mean it's a good card.
Did they confirm every expansion?
Yeah I heard about that.
2-mana heal 7 is bad if it doesn't help with the board state and you don't have an answer.
Hey man, Hunters have a 4-mana board wipe now in Wild!
Obviously I care about Wild, since it's all I play. lol
FWA went from a GREAT card to a DEAD card, and it is killing a lot of other decks alongside as a result. That seems like a bad thing to me, simply put.
Paladin didn't run the 3/2 until recently, with the introduction of the new DI minions. I think it's a factor.
Ancestor's Call? I never called it a bad card and there was never a time where that card was played in every Shaman deck. I think you might have confused with another person on that one. Ancestor's Call was most usable with Malygos for OTK purposes.
Eaglehorn still isn't a bad card in a vacuum. It's 3 mana 3/2 with a text, that makes it playable. Hunters still used Eaglehorn even when they have Glaivezooka.
A card being good or bad is always relative of course. A card can be good now and be unplayable later. Likewise, a card can be unplayable now and then become good to great. Eaglehorn isn't even one of these type of cards, it has proven over time to be a good card.
Eaglehorn still isn't a bad card in a vacuum. It's 3 mana 3/2 with a text, that makes it playable. Hunters still used Eaglehorn even when they have Glaivezooka.
A card being good or bad is always relative of course. A card can be good now and be unplayable later. Likewise, a card can be unplayable now and then become good to great. Eaglehorn isn't even one of these type of cards, it has proven over time to be a good card.
Karsticles
Member
I REALLY wish the Collection screen would remember my settings. I hate changing it to All Cards every goddamn time.
Cool.
I meant Ancestral Knowledge - my bad.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The balance changes are aimed at standard. They care about the meta changing there a lot.
As for paladin, they ran that 3/2 weapon well before righteous protector was in the game. Even control decks ran it because its the only early game removal they have and they have next to if not 0 prospects of hitting a divine shield on curve. I think I first started using that card back in MSG or ONIK.
You're right, you don't run king's defender over FWA but in a lot of decks that would run 3 mana FWA, it doesn't matter if it's one of those cards or the other.
RE: your post about ancestral knowledge, it's not a classic/basic card. I am certain many decks didn't run it, but if they did it's not an issue because once rotation hits that card no longer affects the meta. The standard meta.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I've been running Rallying Blade in paladin as early as ungoro nzoth paladin, back then it was because of Tunnel Trogg but on a 1-1 split with truesilver. It got common to run 2 over any truesilvers with the release of ungoro and the stupid shit that still is Mana Wyrm ran all over the format. I wanna ban all 1 mana 1/3s tbh.
Ancestral Knowledge was actually a card that I said was good/decent (or at the very least playable) and most people disagreed with me. I acknowledged that mathematically it was not costed appropriately but I said that it will see play anyway because Shaman is desperate for draw.
Some cards that I have gotten wrong if you want to bring them up:
Bash - Called this trash because War Axe is better and that you want 3 damage for 2 mana.
Tunnel Trogg - Biggest mistake of my life in card evaluation.
Spirit Claws - I didn't think Shaman would reliable get spell damage to use this. Turns out they would play double Azure Drake and Thalnos plus get chance to get spell damage from Tuskar Totemic too.
Finja - Thought it was bad but really I didn't realize how the mechanics of it would work. I didn't realize that the effect would go off even if he died while trading. I also didn't realize that the card would resurrect itself at 1 HP if it pulled a Warleader which is very likely to happen. If I knew these mechanics beforehand then I would've said it was a good card.
Bunch of Rogue cards - Razorleaf Petals, Sherazin, Quest Rogue, Dark Iron Skulker.
Living Mana - Didn't understand the mechanics so I just gave it a random number. I remember being hella tired when that card came up for evaluation and I didn't even give much of an opinion.
Some cards that I have gotten wrong if you want to bring them up:
Bash - Called this trash because War Axe is better and that you want 3 damage for 2 mana.
Tunnel Trogg - Biggest mistake of my life in card evaluation.
Spirit Claws - I didn't think Shaman would reliable get spell damage to use this. Turns out they would play double Azure Drake and Thalnos plus get chance to get spell damage from Tuskar Totemic too.
Finja - Thought it was bad but really I didn't realize how the mechanics of it would work. I didn't realize that the effect would go off even if he died while trading. I also didn't realize that the card would resurrect itself at 1 HP if it pulled a Warleader which is very likely to happen. If I knew these mechanics beforehand then I would've said it was a good card.
Bunch of Rogue cards - Razorleaf Petals, Sherazin, Quest Rogue, Dark Iron Skulker.
Living Mana - Didn't understand the mechanics so I just gave it a random number. I remember being hella tired when that card came up for evaluation and I didn't even give much of an opinion.
This is the first time that I really can't find a reason to play any deck
I want to play Rexxard Dk on ladder, but hunter is so terrible that I can rarely win against better players/decks
Then I played Exodia Mage, and I felt terrible when a priest beat me after pulling 2 potions of polimorph that it got after a cabalist tome. Even though I carefully played around the first card, there was no way for me to expect the second one.
And then there is Jade Druid, which I can win but the decks at times feels that is way too good, and other time you are fucked thanks to skulling geist.
And then you have the aggro druids winning on turn 4 and priest that can pull the most onesided bullshit that I have ever seen and you realice that the game is in a terrible state
I want to play Rexxard Dk on ladder, but hunter is so terrible that I can rarely win against better players/decks
Then I played Exodia Mage, and I felt terrible when a priest beat me after pulling 2 potions of polimorph that it got after a cabalist tome. Even though I carefully played around the first card, there was no way for me to expect the second one.
And then there is Jade Druid, which I can win but the decks at times feels that is way too good, and other time you are fucked thanks to skulling geist.
And then you have the aggro druids winning on turn 4 and priest that can pull the most onesided bullshit that I have ever seen and you realice that the game is in a terrible state
Karsticles
Member
IIRC you specifically said that Ancestral Knowledge is a terrible card, but Shaman will run it because the class is desperate for draw. My point is that Eaglehorn is in the same position. You can't say Eaglehorn is good because it sees play when there are no alternative options.
That's not why I brought up Ancestral Knowledge.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It's definitely relevant though. The standard by which cards are judged is different for classic/basics than expansions. If a card is used too much in JTU, for example like rockpool hunter, it's much less likely to be nerfed than a classic card like warleader even if they see equal play rates which they probably actually do atm. This is because JTU will rotate and classic will not.
Keyser Soze
Member
Trump's Grinder Mage is good. The basic idea is to use all your various spells to control the board, and then DK at the earliest possible point to turn from defensive into aggressive and win.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I would wait with crafting jaina as her deck still has questionable viability.
I think now we are getting into cost of card versus actual playability in a class.
Like for example, let's just say they made a 2 mana 2/2 no text weapon and gave it to Druid. A 2 mana 2/2 is mathematically a "bad" card compared to other weapons in the game. However, people will not say it is actually a bad card or rate it low when Druid gets it. It will be playable in Druid because it fills an important gap in their arsenal.
In fact, the card HAD to be weaker than average for it to be printed for Druids in the first place.
That's where Ancestral Knowledge stands although not Eaglehorn as Eaglehorn is actually a good card standalone and every class with a secret would play it.
This is pretty much how they make Warlock cards anyway. A lot of their cards are usually strictly worse than other class cards or have some drawback attached to them. But those cards end up seeing play anyway because it's Warlock and they have life tap. Good example is Dark Bomb which is strictly worse than Frostbolt and Quick Shot. But no one would ever say that Dark Bomb is a bad card. Just like no one will say that Eaglehorn is a bad card.
It's impossible to make a weapon card for Hunter that is better than Eaglehorn and not have it be busted. Glaivezooka is the closest and Hunters still play both weapons in their deck. Imagine if they power creeped over Eaglehorn:
3 mana 3/2: Gain +1/+1 when you trigger a secret. Busted.
3 mana 3/3 but same effect so effectively an Assassins Blade that costs 2 less. Busted.
3 mana 4/2 same effect. Busted, that's Truesilver GG for one less mana.
Eaglehorn is exactly where it should be. You know how you know that Eaglehorn is a very good card? When Hunter has 12 3 drops they could be playing (Animal Companion, Kill Command, Unleash the Hounds, Rat Pack, Stitched Tracker, Desert Camel etc) in their deck and they STILL choose to play Eaglehorn.
Like for example, let's just say they made a 2 mana 2/2 no text weapon and gave it to Druid. A 2 mana 2/2 is mathematically a "bad" card compared to other weapons in the game. However, people will not say it is actually a bad card or rate it low when Druid gets it. It will be playable in Druid because it fills an important gap in their arsenal.
In fact, the card HAD to be weaker than average for it to be printed for Druids in the first place.
That's where Ancestral Knowledge stands although not Eaglehorn as Eaglehorn is actually a good card standalone and every class with a secret would play it.
This is pretty much how they make Warlock cards anyway. A lot of their cards are usually strictly worse than other class cards or have some drawback attached to them. But those cards end up seeing play anyway because it's Warlock and they have life tap. Good example is Dark Bomb which is strictly worse than Frostbolt and Quick Shot. But no one would ever say that Dark Bomb is a bad card. Just like no one will say that Eaglehorn is a bad card.
It's impossible to make a weapon card for Hunter that is better than Eaglehorn and not have it be busted. Glaivezooka is the closest and Hunters still play both weapons in their deck. Imagine if they power creeped over Eaglehorn:
3 mana 3/2: Gain +1/+1 when you trigger a secret. Busted.
3 mana 3/3 but same effect so effectively an Assassins Blade that costs 2 less. Busted.
3 mana 4/2 same effect. Busted, that's Truesilver GG for one less mana.
Eaglehorn is exactly where it should be. You know how you know that Eaglehorn is a very good card? When Hunter has 12 3 drops they could be playing (Animal Companion, Kill Command, Unleash the Hounds, Rat Pack, Stitched Tracker, Desert Camel etc) in their deck and they STILL choose to play Eaglehorn.
Karsticles
Member
My point was just that Dahbomb changed his standard of evaluation.
Remember when Priests had to wait until turn 4 to clear the board? I miss those days.
Remember when Priests had to wait until turn 4 to clear the board? I miss those days.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Remember when pint sized potion had everyone gush about it then end up bad? I wanna go back to that time.
FWA was probably appropriate to do. The timing was completely not appropriate, and with their track record of designing warrior cards over the last year I have no faith that warrior will end up having any of its weaknesses addressed, instead getting more bad synergy cards for these bad archetypes they insist on pushing.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think I nailed it as a strong card. I think it's quite strong still.
I think standard of evaluations have to change over time as more cards get made and sets keep rotating. Especially for Wild, a card that was printed today would have been completely different if it was printed a year ago.
In fact, this War Axe change has caused a massive shift in standards for weapons.
Hell cards change evaluation over time as well. Pint Sized Potion went from being not good enough to being good enough to run. I also see a lot more Shadow Word Horror now.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm curious now if you envisioned it's current usage or a more minion centric trading approach to its evaluation. The latter didn't pan out after all but it's great right now for removing many of Priests conditions on removal
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think I said it's a combo piece first with the upside of sometimes producing great trades. Sort of like the 2 drop that had already rotated out by that point. With the way raza priest is built, it is definitely a combo piece first. I think it is perfectly okay in dragon priest too tbh, but that deck is much tighter on slots due to having to include dragons.
Karsticles
Member
It's a completely different approach, though. You once said a card could get play but still be bad. Now you are saying Eaglehorn is clearly good because it gets play.
I always imagined it as a combo piece. I am still surprised that the 2-mana Auchenai spell never became a thing, especially when Pirate Warrior first became popular and everyone was complaining.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Eaglehorn Bow is literally the BiS weapon Hunter got. Powerlevel is relative and maybe dahbomb was simply wrong before.
Rallying Blade is no kidding eking out Truesilver and DS synergy comes up maybe once in 15 games.
Rallying Blade is no kidding eking out Truesilver and DS synergy comes up maybe once in 15 games.
I am saying Eaglehorn sees play because it's good not the other way around.
You keep confusing the point of the two cards. Ancestral Knowledge and Eaglehorn are two different types of playable cards.
Ancestral Knowledge: "Bad" when compared to other equivalent class cards but good enough to be played because it fills a gap in the class.
Eaglehorn: Good standalone card that competes against other weapon cards from other classes in that mana slot. Card would see play even in other weapon classes (specifically Paladin because they also run Secrets).
Like Eaglehorn is not even close to being the same as something like Gadgetzan Ferryman. Gadgetzan Ferryman is a "bad" card, most people here including most Rogue specialists put that card as a 1/5 and probably rightfully so. And then they made Quest Rogue and suddenly that card became a staple. Mathematically that card is often a worse Brewmaster or at best it's about the same but we are talking about a class card versus a neutral card here. So now are the people who said it was a 1/5 card wrong about it? Maybe or maybe not but at the time of evaluation it was the correct evaluation and it wasn't until the existence of a new card down the line that the card saw play. Which is what I mean by changing standards of evaluation. Eaglehorn escapes this evaluation because the card is just generically good, whether it sees play or not. It is very unlikely for Eaglehorn to ever become a genuinely bad card and if that ever happens we are probably playing a completely different game of Hearthstone.
Karsticles
Member
And my point was that Eaglehorn sucks without secrets. FWA is going to suck.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
So FWA is gonna suck and see play anyway because you take what you get.
Then I disagree that Eaglehorn sucks of course. At least it doesn't suck in Hunter. But I don't know why you keep putting that qualifier of "Eaglehorn sucks without secrets". That's like saying Houndmaster/Kill Command suck without Beasts in play or Mad Scientist sucks if you draw your secrets. The card has a text that specifies a synergy and that's where its at its best. The fact the card actually sees play WITHOUT said synergy is a testament to how good the card actually is.
And in Standard at least, FWA is still likely to see play. That pretty much tells us that 3 mana 3/2 weapons are baseline playability and not actually "bad". Just like generic 2 mana 3 damage isn't actually "bad".