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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
Man, how fucking hard is it to see that I'm using Eaglehorn without secrets as a parallel for what FWA is going to be after the nerf?
My follow-up point is that Hunter can't maintain board early on, and that's in direct contrast to Warrior. It's a huge part of why Hunter sucks as a class. You don't have that tempo shift.
I like both, personally. =)
But Eaglehorn is good even without secrets so it was a bad example to even bring up in the first place! You keep saying "War Axe sucks, look at Eaglehorn!" but everyone else is getting confused by it because no one thinks Eaglehorn actually sucks even without secrets.
And Hunter in general sucks not because they don't have a War Axe equivalent at turn 2 but because their minions don't line up as well with the field as they have gotten power crept over. Whenever Hunter's curve gets beaten by another class, they will struggle because they are a poorly designed class. They don't have good AOE, they don't have good card draw so they run out of steam, they don't have healing and as soon as they lose board they tend to lose because half of their cards require a beast in play to be good. Their biggest saving grace is that hero power which ends up being a win condition by itself. It's why their Hunter DK isn't that good and why many people rightfully predicted that it won't really be a factor because LUL Control Hunter.
Hunter has been very good in the past when their curves competed with other classes or were better. They didn't have good removals back in that time too (they had 0 mana Hunter's Mark and that at best saw play as a 1 of even then). Usually Hunter just had some busted minion to abuse and point to face because that's all they can do. Hunter has gotten worse over time due to superior minions on other classes and worse neutral minions that they can't abuse (nerfs to Abusive Sergeant, Leper Gnome, Knife Juggler, Leeroy and Arcane Golem specifically hurt Hunter a lot).
There is a much more systemic issue with Hunter than just not having good early game removal. They are a one dimensional class with a limited range of tools and are funneled into playing one way. When that way of play doesn't work they suck. Even if they did have good early game removal, they will use a removal to 2 for 1 two small minions which means they spent mana/resources not hitting face and then the other opponent just draws two extra card and suddenly Hunter is in top deck mode struggling to maintain board control.
Honestly, Hunter not being a good class is the best thing for the game. No one ever likes Hunter being good, it's more hated than Priest when it's good. Hunter hate is what caused more than half of the neutral minions to get nerfed to begin with. Hunter is also why Blizzard has severely scaled back on charge minions in general.
And Hunter in general sucks not because they don't have a War Axe equivalent at turn 2 but because their minions don't line up as well with the field as they have gotten power crept over. Whenever Hunter's curve gets beaten by another class, they will struggle because they are a poorly designed class. They don't have good AOE, they don't have good card draw so they run out of steam, they don't have healing and as soon as they lose board they tend to lose because half of their cards require a beast in play to be good. Their biggest saving grace is that hero power which ends up being a win condition by itself. It's why their Hunter DK isn't that good and why many people rightfully predicted that it won't really be a factor because LUL Control Hunter.
Hunter has been very good in the past when their curves competed with other classes or were better. They didn't have good removals back in that time too (they had 0 mana Hunter's Mark and that at best saw play as a 1 of even then). Usually Hunter just had some busted minion to abuse and point to face because that's all they can do. Hunter has gotten worse over time due to superior minions on other classes and worse neutral minions that they can't abuse (nerfs to Abusive Sergeant, Leper Gnome, Knife Juggler, Leeroy and Arcane Golem specifically hurt Hunter a lot).
There is a much more systemic issue with Hunter than just not having good early game removal. They are a one dimensional class with a limited range of tools and are funneled into playing one way. When that way of play doesn't work they suck. Even if they did have good early game removal, they will use a removal to 2 for 1 two small minions which means they spent mana/resources not hitting face and then the other opponent just draws two extra card and suddenly Hunter is in top deck mode struggling to maintain board control.
Honestly, Hunter not being a good class is the best thing for the game. No one ever likes Hunter being good, it's more hated than Priest when it's good. Hunter hate is what caused more than half of the neutral minions to get nerfed to begin with. Hunter is also why Blizzard has severely scaled back on charge minions in general.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Eaglehorn doesn't suck without secrets. It's played in a class loaded with great 3 drops.
Karsticles
Member
The class in general can't keep the board at all. Eaglehorn is part of that problem IMO.
I would way rather have FWA than Eaglehorn in Hunter, and I think that says all it needs to. Wouldn't you rather have FWA over Eaglehorn?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that the FWA nerf was approtriate?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I don't even think we're talking about the same game when you say things like that. Eaglehorn bow absolutely enables that. It's a 3 attack charge that hits 2 minions. That is precisely why it's played.
It's funny that you talk about hunter while we're talking about FWA because FWA is one of the reasons hunter sucks. It doesn't have anything that can compete with early game tools of other tempo classes.
This is really oversimplification of the discussion.
slightconfuse
Banned
Asmodai hunter deck has been putting in work it seems
He made rank one legend with it last night
He made rank one legend with it last night
Karsticles
Member
Except FWA at 3 mana is significantly worse than Eaglehorn.
Been ok here except for my internet going out every 30 minutes from the goddamn hurricane.
These days I usually have to use it to clear the board, otherwise it's gone forever.
Eaglehorn comes too late, though. Like I just faced a Pirate Warrior that killed me on turn 5, and a Hunter would have had his turn 1 and 2 pinged away by N'Zoth's First Mate's 1/3 weapon, and then he would have used Eaglehorn on turn 3 to hit his own face for 3 while killing a Dread Corsair, and then the game is over.
I think defensive Warrior decks are going to have similar issues as a result of this, because they also don't have turn 1 or 2 plays. Maybe N'Zoth's First Mate will get play in Control Warrior decks so they can control the board now? That would be interesting. In playing my Quest Warrior and Fatigue Warrior decks without FWA to prep for the changes, I always have to coin out Deathlord if I can, and then I just pray he doesn't pull a 3 or 4-drop when he dies. Because Deathlord doesn't even live 2 turns against Pirate Warrior on curve a lot of the time.
Why call it something fancy like that when it's just a typical Beast Hunter deck?
I think that's expected when there's a lot of greed, which Priest is enabling. I just went 8-2 with Demonlock, which is a tier 3 deck, in Wild because people are so greedy. But I still lost twice to Giant Shit because it's so strong.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
in theory more than practice.
slightconfuse
Banned
The 3 Mana nerf for FawA will make a difference. I have been playing pirate warrior today. You really want to drop it on 2 to curve into cultist
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I agree
So what's everyone's prediction for Standard meta post rotation?
Here's mine:
Razakus Priest at Tier 1.
Jade Druid remains Tier 1. Less difference between it and Priest. Innervate might still get play in Jade Druid to empty hand faster. Spreading Plague is still probably 2 of.
Tier 2
Murloc Paladin - Easier to wipe boards, no cheat Finjas. Might sneak back into tier 1.
Pirate Warrior - Pirate Warriors will adapt and still continue to hit face. Except some new 2 drop or Firefly added to the deck because Firefly is still one of the best cards in the game. Maybe Dire wolf and Hobbart, remove a couple of 3 drops from the deck. War Axe still gets played in PW.
Aggro Druid- I think Aggro Druid drops Innervate completely and adds in some other degenerate cards to fill the deck. Maybe Vicious Fledgling gets cut for a stickier board.
Tier 3
Who gives a phuck. Slow decks aren't suddenly going to thrive with these decks still being relevant. Most likely candidate of getting up there is Token Shaman because it's a somewhat aggressive deck and aggressive decks will always be relevant somehow.
Maybe Secret Mage is relevant. Maybe a Control Paladin with DK win condition.
Hunter, Rogue and Warlock still gonna eat shit.
Here's mine:
Razakus Priest at Tier 1.
Jade Druid remains Tier 1. Less difference between it and Priest. Innervate might still get play in Jade Druid to empty hand faster. Spreading Plague is still probably 2 of.
Tier 2
Murloc Paladin - Easier to wipe boards, no cheat Finjas. Might sneak back into tier 1.
Pirate Warrior - Pirate Warriors will adapt and still continue to hit face. Except some new 2 drop or Firefly added to the deck because Firefly is still one of the best cards in the game. Maybe Dire wolf and Hobbart, remove a couple of 3 drops from the deck. War Axe still gets played in PW.
Aggro Druid- I think Aggro Druid drops Innervate completely and adds in some other degenerate cards to fill the deck. Maybe Vicious Fledgling gets cut for a stickier board.
Tier 3
Who gives a phuck. Slow decks aren't suddenly going to thrive with these decks still being relevant. Most likely candidate of getting up there is Token Shaman because it's a somewhat aggressive deck and aggressive decks will always be relevant somehow.
Maybe Secret Mage is relevant. Maybe a Control Paladin with DK win condition.
Hunter, Rogue and Warlock still gonna eat shit.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You say who cares about tier 3 but quest rogue was tier 3 
edit:
I can say for certain rogue is not guaranteed to be bad. It's not even that bad right now tbh. Same with warlock. I think some are even doing good with hunter.
edit:
I can say for certain rogue is not guaranteed to be bad. It's not even that bad right now tbh. Same with warlock. I think some are even doing good with hunter.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I really think Keleseth PW could have legs, might be a bit too feast or famine with the draws though.
Exodia mage should get significantly better with all decks being slowed down
jaina mage is dead
of course jade druid will play counterfeit coin
Exodia mage should get significantly better with all decks being slowed down
jaina mage is dead
of course jade druid will play counterfeit coin
Rogue will be beating druids very well after nerfs. Any kind even aggro. Vanish destroys aggro druid.
I think aggro druid will be trash tier btw. Without innervate that deck is shit.
Pirate Warrior will be so fair that I don't think it will be very popular either.
Murloc paladin is done because everyone will dust their warleaders, for that alone it won't see much play. Just see quest rogue, the deck is actually not bad right now to play against pries/druid but no one does it because no one has the quest lol. Dog played quest rogue, did fairly well.
Secret mage will become much better.
I think warlock will still be bad for ladder. The kind of decks it's good against are not going to be very good. Like minion based aggro decks.
Teched Hunters will come to beat priest/druid and will probably fail.
DMH warrior new meta. All the pros are seriously testing it.
I think aggro druid will be trash tier btw. Without innervate that deck is shit.
Pirate Warrior will be so fair that I don't think it will be very popular either.
Murloc paladin is done because everyone will dust their warleaders, for that alone it won't see much play. Just see quest rogue, the deck is actually not bad right now to play against pries/druid but no one does it because no one has the quest lol. Dog played quest rogue, did fairly well.
Secret mage will become much better.
I think warlock will still be bad for ladder. The kind of decks it's good against are not going to be very good. Like minion based aggro decks.
Teched Hunters will come to beat priest/druid and will probably fail.
DMH warrior new meta. All the pros are seriously testing it.
cartographer
Member
We could add the context that FWA is accompanied by Warrior's lifegain (effective even if not damaged by turn 3) and weapon synergy, things hunter doesn't have access to at nearly the same level warrior does.
So it would be more like "Eaglehorn w/o secrets is fine, so FWA at 3 with Warrior lifegain and weapon synergy is fine."
That last part being understood.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The funny thing is as cartographer points out, 3 mana FWA is probably still better than 3 mana eaglehorn bow once we step outside of vacuum talk.
I think, after a period of unsettlement, we will see:
Jade is still on top. Innervate nerf hurts them a bit, but Jade is perfectly capable of ramping without Innervate. Spreading Plague nerf isn't really a bit deal in Jade, and Druid mana continues to be flexible enough that Spreading Plague costing 6 doesn't mean much.
Razakus capitalizes on the small weaknesses in Jade but continues to remain in 2nd place. It's weak to aggro and rushdown but it won't matter as Pirate Warrior is neutered enough that it won't be able to compete against any deck, much less Razakus.
Pirate Warrior loses an early game tool and grows comparatively weaker. An appropriate 2 mana card (dire wolf, maybe) is slotted in, along with the weapon search card (perhaps) but it will continue to lose ground as it has all expansion long. FWA will still see play, but Warriors might cut a late game weapon in order to make room, further weakening the deck as it attempts to close games.
Aggro Druid is the archtype most hurt by the innervate and spreading plague nerf. Can't say I feel too bad about this. Without innervate we will see fewer "dump your hands" turns involving their whole hand + mark of the lotus on turns 1 and/or 2. We will also not see any more turn 1 vicious fledgeling shenanigans, but we will occasionally see turn 2 shenanigans. Aggro druid falls way off a cliff, and a more midrangey token style might emerge.
Murlocadin is slightly weaker, but will continue to be the most viable aggro/midrange archtype in the game. It will continue to be the hipster deck of choice. (just kidding)
Otherwise, things will remain the game. Without a solid nerf to jade the meta will still be defined by how well opponents can respond to an endless stream of X/X's on the board. Geist will continue to demonstrate it's ineffectiveness as a "counter" since how effective it is heavily depends on how quickly you can get to it. Perhaps if no viable druid alternative it might be better, as it allows people to mulligan exclusively for Geist if they face a druid.
Jade is still on top. Innervate nerf hurts them a bit, but Jade is perfectly capable of ramping without Innervate. Spreading Plague nerf isn't really a bit deal in Jade, and Druid mana continues to be flexible enough that Spreading Plague costing 6 doesn't mean much.
Razakus capitalizes on the small weaknesses in Jade but continues to remain in 2nd place. It's weak to aggro and rushdown but it won't matter as Pirate Warrior is neutered enough that it won't be able to compete against any deck, much less Razakus.
Pirate Warrior loses an early game tool and grows comparatively weaker. An appropriate 2 mana card (dire wolf, maybe) is slotted in, along with the weapon search card (perhaps) but it will continue to lose ground as it has all expansion long. FWA will still see play, but Warriors might cut a late game weapon in order to make room, further weakening the deck as it attempts to close games.
Aggro Druid is the archtype most hurt by the innervate and spreading plague nerf. Can't say I feel too bad about this. Without innervate we will see fewer "dump your hands" turns involving their whole hand + mark of the lotus on turns 1 and/or 2. We will also not see any more turn 1 vicious fledgeling shenanigans, but we will occasionally see turn 2 shenanigans. Aggro druid falls way off a cliff, and a more midrangey token style might emerge.
Murlocadin is slightly weaker, but will continue to be the most viable aggro/midrange archtype in the game. It will continue to be the hipster deck of choice. (just kidding)
Otherwise, things will remain the game. Without a solid nerf to jade the meta will still be defined by how well opponents can respond to an endless stream of X/X's on the board. Geist will continue to demonstrate it's ineffectiveness as a "counter" since how effective it is heavily depends on how quickly you can get to it. Perhaps if no viable druid alternative it might be better, as it allows people to mulligan exclusively for Geist if they face a druid.
Professor Lich
Member
So when are we going to start working on the next OT subtitle or did I already miss it?
Hearthstone |OT10| Fuck Priest
Professor Lich
Member
I feel like it could be a little more clever than that...
Hearthstone |OT 10| In Etneral Servitude to Priests
BlackBuzzard
Banned
[OT10]How long can this go on
Karsticles
Member
Hearthstone |OT10| The Land of the Void
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
as much as I hate priest it's inappropriate to be that openly hostile in the title.
but fuck priest anyway
but fuck priest anyway
Professor Lich
Member
|OT 10| Frozen Deeprock Salt
Starting to get burned out so I decide to play some arena. First two matches against druids both with spreading plague and ultimate infestation. Ahead the whole game too until UI. Then right into a priest ...who then proceeds to anduin my board when I have four 5+ attack minions on board. I think might be done til the nerfs lol.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Priest took 3 Dead Man's Hands from me...
Ended up fatiguing him out anyways like god intended but it was closer than it should have been.
Ended up fatiguing him out anyways like god intended but it was closer than it should have been.
It's not worth it to play if you are feeling down on the game. Just going to lead to more frustration and losses. I always cap myself when I'm starting to feel annoyed. Come back after a few days to see what quests I have. I can understand why this meta is worse than most. We were spoiled by Un'goro.
I like this one. All y'all priest haters can get more clever and then maybe I'll vote for one of those.
cartographer
Member
|OT10| Ultimate Infuriation
Professor Lich
Member
Now that's a good one.
oh c'mon... this one's clever
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
|OT 10| Return of the Meta
Keyser Soze
Member
To future proof to new OT
Hearthstone |OT10| Shadowy thoughts...
...or for something a bit offbeat
Hearthstone |OT10| The DK Rap
Hearthstone |OT10| Shadowy thoughts...
...or for something a bit offbeat
Hearthstone |OT10| The DK Rap
Keyser Soze
Member
Wait....
Hearthstone |OT10| Hold me closer Skelemancer
Hearthstone |OT10| Hold me closer Skelemancer
Forerunner
Member
The Mango Sentinel
Member
No. Never.
I've been trying 2 cursed blades instead of win axes in pirate warriors and they aren't terrible (got Rank 4 relatively early in the season), but Pirate Warrior Winrate is gonna go down for sure, and play rate is gonna TANK, which, ironically enough, will make it probably better for grinding as the meta will be a bit greedier in general. Still think Shaman is gonna be the best aggro deck.
Cursed blade is less bad than it appear because:
- against other aggro decks, often the tempo of being able to clear and gain board early is more important than taking double damage (against aggro druid, being able to clear their 1-drop AND play a pirate on T1-coin is significant).
- it's not a 2-drop BUT it may actually be better as a 1-drop for your curve because the only really playable 1-drop in pirates anyway are nzoth and finley. Southsea and patches are terrible without a weapon. Also, blade T1 open T2 corsair without using coin so it actually give you the same amount of playable T2 plays without being a 2-drop itself. Blade T1 into T2 raider is also a really good opening that the deck didn't have before.
Obviously all the negatives still stand, in particular:
- can't clear troggs and northshires. Aggro shaman was already slightly favored vs pirates and will be much more after the FWA nerf. Priest being able to safely T1 northshire is also a big deal with priests being everywhere and like half the meta.
It's gonna be Priest vs the world, brace yourselves... At least rogues will become decent again, i guess.
Cursed blade is less bad than it appear because:
- against other aggro decks, often the tempo of being able to clear and gain board early is more important than taking double damage (against aggro druid, being able to clear their 1-drop AND play a pirate on T1-coin is significant).
- it's not a 2-drop BUT it may actually be better as a 1-drop for your curve because the only really playable 1-drop in pirates anyway are nzoth and finley. Southsea and patches are terrible without a weapon. Also, blade T1 open T2 corsair without using coin so it actually give you the same amount of playable T2 plays without being a 2-drop itself. Blade T1 into T2 raider is also a really good opening that the deck didn't have before.
Obviously all the negatives still stand, in particular:
- can't clear troggs and northshires. Aggro shaman was already slightly favored vs pirates and will be much more after the FWA nerf. Priest being able to safely T1 northshire is also a big deal with priests being everywhere and like half the meta.
It's gonna be Priest vs the world, brace yourselves... At least rogues will become decent again, i guess.
supervillain
Member
Played about 6 or 7 games today, all against pirate warrior.
Yeah, fuck this game!
Yeah, fuck this game!
Nobody fucking knows, not even blizzard. They just made a few freeze and freeze synergy cards, without any kind of direction.
It's not such much an unfinished archtype, but more like that it barely even started.