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[entremet]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/...-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

Gov. Jerry Brown of California is poised to sign a worrisome bill that will codify the Obama-era sexual assault guidelines. Those rules told colleges to toughen up on sexual assault allegations or risk losing federal dollars.

California's law explicitly applies to children in public kindergarten, elementary and high schools. So a first grader could face dire consequences if found to have committed an act of ”sexual violence," which is broadly defined to include any ”physical sexual acts perpetrated against a person" without their consent.

Let's focus instead on what we already know: Heavy-handed disciplinary policies fall disproportionately on students of color. Because of the stereotypes associated with them, including the noxious but persistent trope that black males are inherently sexually predatory, black kids are presumed guilty.

Black students are more than three times as likely to be suspended than their white counterparts, according to a report by the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights. Sixteen percent of black students enrolled in K-12 schools were suspended from 2009 to 2012, but only 5 percent of white students were, the Civil Rights Project at U.C.L.A. found.

The consequences of these harsh disciplinary policies are profound. Students who are temporarily or permanently kicked out of school are far more likely to end up in the criminal justice system, a track known as the school-to-prison pipeline. But when Dan Roth, a Berkeley-based criminal defense lawyer, testified before the California State Senate about the bill's potential to have a racially disparate impact, Senator Hannah-Beth Jackson, who drafted the law, dismissed Mr. Roth's points as ”hyperbole." Lawmakers similarly rejected Mr. Roth's common-sense suggestion that the bill include a provision for data collection on its racial impact.

The Op-Ed contributor mentions some disciplinary alternatives over suspension and expulsion.

Personally, neuroscience has already confirmed that executive function is not fully developed until much later in adolescence, so I'm not for heavy approaches as stipulated in this law. This law will affect kids as young as 6. You can take improper behavior seriously, while not having terrible second order effects as the author states above.

 

[TarNaru33]

I am not sure how this specifically hurts Black Kids... more like this law will hurt everyone including Blacks due to the already assumed guilty nature of schools and enforcement.

It shouldn't be a thing since kids are not fully developed and have to be corrected in an appropriate manner.

 

[entremet]

I am not sure how this specifically hurts Black Kids... more like this law will hurt everyone including Blacks due to the already assumed guilty nature of schools and enforcement.

It shouldn't be a thing since kids are not fully developed and have to be corrected in an appropriate manner.

It's in the original post:

Black students are more than three times as likely to be suspended than their white counterparts, according to a report by the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights. Sixteen percent of black students enrolled in K-12 schools were suspended from 2009 to 2012, but only 5 percent of white students were, the Civil Rights Project at U.C.L.A. found.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

It's in the original post:

I think his point is that the numbers show they're already disproportionally hurt by this based on the numbers you posted, but that this law would just raise those numbers across the board. Not just specifically for black kids. So everyone is hurt by it.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Why the fuck are they applying sexual assault laws to kids who haven't even hit puberty yet? What the fuck kind of stupidity is this?

 

[Kuro]

Instead of having proper sex and consent education in schools lets just punish 1st graders. That on top of black kids being seen as guilty always.

 

[MonorailCat]

sexual assault laws for kindergarten childen.
america you and your crazy laws .. why do you want to punish and sentence every person?

 

[John Dunbar]

Why the fuck are they applying sexual assault laws to kids who haven't even hit puberty yet? What the fuck kind of stupidity is this?

being free means that you can ruin your life before it even really begins.

 

[Violence Jack]

Punishing young children before they are taught anything about sex ed seems wrong to me. Why are we so quick to punish instead of educate, especially when talking about kids in grades K-5? Not only that, but a lot of kids lie and will do so in a heartbeat if it were to affect a schoolmate they didn't like.

 

[Kayhan]

Why the fuck are they applying sexual assault laws to kids who haven't even hit puberty yet? What the fuck kind of stupidity is this?

California uber-progressiveness

 

[freeofgreed]

I am not sure how this specifically hurts Black Kids... more like this law will hurt everyone including Blacks due to the already assumed guilty nature of schools and enforcement.

It shouldn't be a thing since kids are not fully developed and have to be corrected in an appropriate manner.

Yeah this is where I'm at. Article does seem like it's reaching a bit unless the author is under the assumption that black kids are disproportionally doing more sexual assaults.

This part however

Lawmakers similarly rejected Mr. Roth's common-sense suggestion that the bill include a provision for data collection on its racial impact.

Is dumb. I see no reason why this shouldn't be included in the law.

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Wow, disappointed in my state. Thought we were better than creating these types of punishing laws.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I am not sure how this specifically hurts Black Kids... more like this law will hurt everyone including Blacks due to the already assumed guilty nature of schools and enforcement.

It shouldn't be a thing since kids are not fully developed and have to be corrected in an appropriate manner.

I think the author's point is that black kids will be disproportionately hurt by this.

 

[entremet]

Yeah this is where I'm at. Article does seem like it's reaching a bit unless the author is under the assumption that black kids are disproportionally doing more sexual assaults.

This part however



Is dumb. I see no reason why this shouldn't be included in the law.

No, black kids are disportionately cited for suspensions and expulsions in general. This is another statute that can add to that inequality of enforcement. Moreover, black kids suffer more from those heavy handed punishments because it takes them out of school.

 

[benicillin]

Does California's law go above and beyond what the Obama-era guidelines already were, or are they just putting it into state law because DeVos is trying to sweep sexual violence and harassment in schools under the rug by throwing them all out?

 

[entremet]

Does California's law go above and beyond what the Obama-era guidelines already were, or are they just putting it into state law because DeVos is trying to sweep sexual violence and harassment in schools under the rug by throwing them all out?

Obama guidelines were for universities.

These are for k-12.

 

[Hari Seldon]

California uber-progressiveness

I mean locking up 6 year olds is something that North Korea would do.

 

[freeofgreed]

No, black kids are disportionately cited for suspensions and expulsions in general. This is another statute that can add to that inequality of enforcement. Moreover, black kids suffer more from those heavy handed punishments because it takes them out of school.

Yeah I know. The point is that this law itself isn't the issue. The issue is that blacks kids are being disproportionately punished at schools. That's the root of the problem, not anything specifically related to this law.

 

[entremet]

Yeah I know. The point is that this law itself isn't the issue. The issue is that blacks kids are being disproportionately punished at schools. That's the root of the problem, not anything specifically related to this law.

But that’s her argument. We need to look at these things holistically. Moreover, she does cite better ways to deal with sexual assault issues in schools.

You can’t use a hammer for everything. These punitive measures will have unequal outcomes by design.

 

[SheSaidNo]

Yeah I know. The point is that this law itself isn't the issue. The issue is that blacks kids are being disproportionately punished at schools. That's the root of the problem, not anything specifically related to this law.

Yeah it's kinda a weird argument to make. Almost any law created will disproportionately punish black people because our law enforcement institutions are racist.

 

[Kthulhu]

Is sexual assault a big issue in elementary and junior high schools?

 

[darscot]

I'm not going to comment on who it will hurt or wont. I will say how fucking bad is it when legal system is so fucked that you have to consider its bias and racism when you try and craft laws.

 

[freeofgreed]

But that’s her argument. We need to look at these things holistically. Moreover, she does cite better ways to deal with sexual assault issues in schools.

You can’t use a hammer for everything. These punitive measures will have unequal outcomes by design.

Whether or not this law passed wouldn't change the fact that black kids get punished worse. So I'm not sure how banning this law would stop that from occurring.

Just to be clear I do think this law is dumb, but I think it's dumb for trying to apply guidelines aimed at adults towards children, and for like you said applying heavy handed punishments.

 

[entremet]

Yeah it's kinda a weird argument to make. Almost any law created will disproportionately punish black people because our law enforcement institutions are racist.

It’s more about efficacy as these are minors, not adults.

The law itself is not about agreeing if something is wrong or right. Sexual assault clearly is wrong. The law is instliing harsher punitive measures for minors in public schools.

Would these measures be effective and have positive long term effects? She argues they won’t.

 

[benicillin]

Is sexual assault a big issue in elementary and junior high schools?

Usually around 20-30% of students in middle school will report experiencing physical or verbal sexual harassment. At least 1 in 5 will report being touched inappropriately.

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...assment-frequent-among-middle-school-students

http://www.aera.net/Newsroom/Recent...iolence-Experiences-Among-Middle-School-Youth

 

[SheSaidNo]

It’s more about efficacy as these are minors, not adults.

The law itself is not about agreeing if something is wrong or right. Sexual assault clearly is wrong. The law is instliing harsher punitive measures for minors in public schools.

Would these measures be effective and have positive long term effects? She argues they won’t.

Yeah I think her arguments have merit, but they still have merit if the law effected white and black kids equally. I think the disproportionate suspensions and punishments for black children needs to be addressed outside individual laws. Otherwise it could just be a criticism of any law

 

[Somnid]

The whole hard line sex law thing is out of control. People don't need harder punishment, they need better education.

Also, we should be a little more clear, we're talking about Black males which deal with a much more acute set of bias issues.

 

[nekkid]

I mean, if black kids are 3 times more likely to be accused/punished for a misdemeanour, then that’s a specific thing that needs addressing.

However, that fact shouldn’t stop other rules being introduced, if they have merit.

 

[entremet]

I mean, if black kids are 3 times more likely to be accused/punished for a misdemeanour, then that’s a specific thing that needs addressing.

However, that fact shouldn’t stop other rules being introduced, if they have merit.

How does expulsion and suspension help though? That’s her argument. Expulsion and suspension have terrible track records as a punitive measure in general.

 

[emag]

Is sexual assault a big issue in elementary and junior high schools?

It's endemic. The whole "boys will be boys" mentality is deeply ingrained.

But that's her argument. We need to look at these things holistically. Moreover, she does cite better ways to deal with sexual assault issues in schools.

"Restorative Justice" in the K-12 system is a joke. Oakland's reduction in suspensions is trickery designed to maintain funding levels -- kids are sent back home for part of the day and/or are put in full-day detention to avoid the suspension label. Such policies do nothing to protect victims from perpetrators who require, at the very least, extensive counseling and changes to their home environment. Unfortunately, there's so much pushback against suspensions and expulsions that schools have their hands tied.

I mean locking up 6 year olds is something that North Korea would do.

Hyperbole, I hope, but to clarify, these policies regard suspension/expulsion.

How does expulsion and suspension help though? That's her argument. Expulsion and suspension have terrible track records as a punitive measure in general.

Expulsion and suspension have great track records at protecting the victims, who tend to be black girls, btw.

 

[Pizoxuat]

Is sexual assault a big issue in elementary and junior high schools?

Going off my experience from when I was a kid, behavior that would be considered sexual assault when done by adults is brushed off as boys being boys in elementary and middle school. Boys got zero punishment for doing things I'd go to the cops for these days.

Fuck, we got punished more for reacting than they did for doing.

 

[TarNaru33]

I think the author's point is that black kids will be disproportionately hurt by this.

This is definitely likely.

I think his point is that the numbers show they're already disproportionally hurt by this based on the numbers you posted, but that this law would just raise those numbers across the board. Not just specifically for black kids. So everyone is hurt by it.

Yes, this was my point. I do recognize it adds more reasons to disproportinately punish Blacks more though.

Whether or not this law passed wouldn't change the fact that black kids get punished worse. So I'm not sure how banning this law would stop that from occurring.

Just to be clear I do think this law is dumb, but I think it's dumb for trying to apply guidelines aimed at adults towards children, and for like you said applying heavy handed punishments.

I am of this same thought. It is a dumb law, but they should also focus on the fact Blacks are targeted more for punishments anyways.

 

[Kthulhu]

Going off my experience from when I was a kid, behavior that would be considered sexual assault when done by adults is brushed off as boys being boys in elementary and middle school. Boys got zero punishment for doing things I'd go to the cops for these days.

Fuck, we got punished more for reacting than they did for doing.

It seems crazy that would happen in elementary school. Junior high I can see, but I figured elementary school students were to young to understand.

Usually around 20-30% of students in middle school will report experiencing physical or verbal sexual harassment. At least 1 in 5 will report being touched inappropriately.

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...assment-frequent-among-middle-school-students

http://www.aera.net/Newsroom/Recent...iolence-Experiences-Among-Middle-School-Youth

That's pretty fucked.

 

[theCalamity]

I don't think we should be giving young kids dire consequences for sexual acts. They should be punished, for sure, but they also need to be in therapy and need to stay in school.

 

[Media]

My hot take on this:
Kids that young (barring high school) are not going to be committing sexual violence unless it's being done to them. That is literally the first warning sign that someone is hurting them in most awful way imaginable.

So, let's lock up the kids and NOT call social services and the cops on any adult figures in the kids life? Seems legit.

 

[kswiston]

Is sexual assault a big issue in elementary and junior high schools?

Of course for Junior high. Kids are hitting puberty and are at their stupidest.

K-3 is pretty ridiculous though. 5 year olds dont even know what they are doing.

 

[Ala Alba]

It seems crazy that would happen in elementary school. Junior high I can see, but I figured elementary school students were to young to understand.

My hot take on this:
Kids that young (barring high school) are not going to be committing sexual violence unless it's being done to them. That is literally the first warning sign that someone is hurting them in most awful way imaginable.

So, let's lock up the kids and NOT call social services and the cops on any adult figures in the kids life? Seems legit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sexual assault doesn't require sexual knowledge. It could be either completely innocent or simply imitating something seen at home or in media.

 

[Beartruck]

SO works with children. Forcing those kind of regulations on 6 year olds would probably criminalize 1 out of 10 of all kids. Moronic policy.

 

[Kthulhu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sexual assault doesn't require sexual knowledge. It could be either completely innocent or simply imitating something seen at home or in media.

But then does it really count? If the kid doesn't have malicious intent is it still legally sexual assault?

 

[zelas]

My hot take on this:
Kids that young (barring high school) are not going to be committing sexual violence unless it's being done to them. That is literally the first warning sign that someone is hurting them in most awful way imaginable.

So, let's lock up the kids and NOT call social services and the cops on any adult figures in the kids life? Seems legit.

*expel/suspend

But I agree with you. More accountability needs to be placed on parents in these situations. Taking kids out of school seems like it will just make all kinds of other situations worse.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sexual assault doesn't require sexual knowledge. It could be either completely innocent or simply imitating something seen at home or in media.

Which is why the legal system has different punishments for those who have no true knowledge of their actions. Sexual assault involving kids under 14 should be no different. According to the article, schools in CA have been offering alternatives to expulsion. This law will throw all of that out the window. Why should that be the only option?

 

[CDX]

Is this saying the SAME sexual assault guidelines that Obama put in place for UNIVERSITIES are now going to apply to kindergarteners and elementary school students?

I mean the kids that age haven't even gone through puberty yet. That seems absurd to me.

I think they should have different guidelines for each stage of school. With high schools and universities having the most similar guidelines.

 

[LogicAirForce]

Is sexual assault a big issue in elementary and junior high schools?

In middle school there was definitely a problem with boys groping or just touching girls inappropriately.Parents can't be bothered to actually teach boys that girl's bodies are not there for them to do whatever they want with. The girls rarely spoke up about it since it was seen as "just something that happens". I know that a girl was expelled for slapping a boy who grabbed her boobs. She was wearing a ring of some kind and it messed up one of his eyes, he ended up in the hospital. He should have been expelled imo

 

[Goodstyle]

But then does it really count? If the kid doesn't have malicious intent is it still legally sexual assault?

There will be a lot more assumed maliciousness on the part of black men than on white men.

I'm reminded of a case where musician accused a black poet for sexually harassing her friend, and then when his defenders fought back by saying she and her friend are unfairly maligning a black man (which is an inappropriate thing to say IMO), she had a long moment of introspection and then decided to accuse a white dude of raping her because she realized there was a part of herself that held this weird racist double standard that made her OK with accusing a black man of sexual harassment but not a white man of rape.

The point is, society is a lot more willing to destroy black men and has a tendency to protect white men. A law like this getting passed will lead to a ton of unfairly run cases that will destroy a lot of lives. Title IX is super problematic, and applying it K-12 will lead to badly investigated cases with uncomfortable racial implications like this one.

If you haven't read this article from the Atlantic on what's wrong with Title IX, I strongly encourage you to.

EDIT:

Another Atlantic article on the massive racial implications of Campus sexual assault cases.

2 alarming facts:

3 students were expelled over sexual assault in Findley U within a 2 year period, all 3 were black. The latter 2 was in an incident where the accuser bragged about her sexual encounter to her friends.

Asian students are 3% of the student body but make up 13% of the accused.

 

[Ala Alba]

But then does it really count? If the kid doesn't have malicious intent is it still legally sexual assault?

No, I don't think it should be regarded as sexual assault. But schools rarely care about things like intent or who is actually in the wrong.

Which is why the legal system has different punishments for those who have no true knowledge of their actions. Sexual assault involving kids under 14 should be no different. According to the article, schools in CA have been offering alternatives to expulsion. This law will throw all of that out the window. Why should that be the only option?

To be clear, I am not in favor of this law. But if this law passes, I imagine that the schools will enforce it with as much care as they do anything else.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Welcome to the modern legal system, where our kids are more likely to end up on the Sex Offender Registry than they are to be victimized by someone on it.

Zero Tolerance for anything as murky as this is always a bad idea.

 

[Zaphrynn]

Instead of having proper sex and consent education in schools lets just punish 1st graders. That on top of black kids being seen as guilty always.

Yep. Consent and what counts as consent and why it's important absolutely needs to be taught.

My hot take on this:
Kids that young (barring high school) are not going to be committing sexual violence unless it's being done to them. That is literally the first warning sign that someone is hurting them in most awful way imaginable.

So, let's lock up the kids and NOT call social services and the cops on any adult figures in the kids life? Seems legit.

Yep =\ It's not ALWAYS the case, but pre-pubescent kids learn that behavior somewhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sexual assault doesn't require sexual knowledge. It could be either completely innocent or simply imitating something seen at home or in media.

That's why a young kid doing sexual assault/acts should raise red flags.

In middle school there was definitely a problem with boys groping or just touching girls inappropriately.Parents can't be bothered to actually teach boys that girl's bodies are not there for them to do whatever they want with. The girls rarely spoke up about it since it was seen as "just something that happens". I know that a girl was expelled for slapping a boy who grabbed her boobs. She was wearing a ring of some kind and it messed up one of his eyes, he ended up in the hospital. He should have been expelled imo

Yeah, you kind of learn that it happens and to accept it, and it's shrugged off as not as big of a deal.

And yes, even kindergartners can sexually harass, whether that's their intent or not. Most of my kindergarten recesses on the playground involved me running/hiding from a boy that constantly tried to chase me and kiss me. I absolutely would not have wanted him to get slapped with what this law would propose, but it's still something that needs t be taken seriously. Women are taught from a young age that what we experience as harassment isn't a big deal for xyz reasons. Or even worse, that the harassment we experience is "cute" because of the ages of those involved.

 

[Pizoxuat]

It seems crazy that would happen in elementary school. Junior high I can see, but I figured elementary school students were to young to understand.

The first girl in our class to develop visible breasts got them in 4th grade.

The boys in 4th grade made a game out of trying to pinch them. Not just grab them, not just snap her bra strap, which she suffered a lot from. To actually hurt them.

The boys only got an eye roll and a tired "Stop that" from the teachers.

 

[emag]

Here's the actual text of the bill's substantive changes for the K-12 level:

SEC. 5.

221.8 (k) You have the right to be free from sexual harassment, including sexual violence.

SEC. 7.

231.5. (h) Each elementary and secondary school that is subject to the requirements of this article shall use a ”preponderance of the evidence" standard to decide whether an incident of sexual harassment or sexual violence occurred. The school shall make a determination regarding what, if any, disciplinary action or actions are appropriate, including suspension or expulsion pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 48900) of Chapter 6 of Part 27 of Division 4 of Title 2.

SEC. 8.

260. The governing board of a school district shall have the primary responsibility for ensuring that school district programs and activities are free from discrimination based on age, the characteristics listed in Section 220, and sexual harassment, including sexual violence, and for monitoring compliance with any and all rules and regulations promulgated pursuant to Section 11138 of the Government Code.

SEC. 9.

66262.5. ”(a) Except for the definition of ”sexual violence," which for the purposes of this chapter is defined in subdivision (b), and ”sexual exploitation," which for the purposes of this chapter is defined in paragraph (4) of subdivision (b), ”sexual harassment" has the same meaning as defined in Section 212.5.
(b) For purposes of this chapter, ”sexual violence" means physical sexual acts perpetrated against a person without the person's consent. An individual may be unable to give consent due to an intellectual or other disability. Physical sexual acts include all of the following:
(1) Rape as defined in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 261) of Title 9 of Part 1 of the Penal Code.
(2) Sexual assault, defined as actual or attempted sexual contact with another person without that person's consent, regardless of the victim's affiliation with the higher education institution, including, but not limited to, any of the following:
(A) Intentional touching of another person's intimate parts without that person's consent or other intentional sexual contact with another person without that person's consent.
(B) Using duress, forcing, or attempting to use duress or force a person to touch another person's intimate parts without that person's consent.
(3) Sexual battery as defined in Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 240) of Title 8 of Part 1 of the Penal Code.
(4) Sexual exploitation, defined as a person taking sexual advantage of another person for the benefit of anyone other than that person without that person's consent, regardless of the victim's affiliation with the higher education institution, including any of the following:
(A) Prostituting another person.
(B) Recording images, including video or photograph, or audio of another person's sexual activity, intimate body parts, or nakedness without that person's consent.
(C) Distributing images, including video or photograph, or audio of another person's sexual activity, intimate body parts, or nakedness, if the individual distributing the images or audio knows or should have known that the person depicted in the images or audio did not consent to the disclosure and objected to the disclosure.
(D) Viewing another person's sexual activity, intimate body parts, or nakedness in a place where that person would have a reasonable expectation of privacy, without that person's consent, and for the purpose of arousing or gratifying sexual desire.

 

[Keri]

While racial disparity in enforcement is a serious issue that needs to be addressed, I don't think it justifies abandoning laws directed towards punishing sexual assaults. It's pretty ridiculous to try to frame this conversation, in this manner.

Although, I agree that enforcing these rules on elementary school aged children is over the top. I feel perfectly comfortable with the idea of expelling a high school student who sexually assaults another, but an elementary aged child either doesn't know what they are doing or is being abused themselves.

 

[Media]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sexual assault doesn't require sexual knowledge. It could be either completely innocent or simply imitating something seen at home or in media.

Of course it doesn't require knowing about sex, but in the vast majority of cases, if a kid under ten or so is committing sexual acts on fellow students, especially violent ones, they are having it done to them. Doing it to someone else makes them. Feel less helpless and more in control, and if they are not rescued asap, they could become adult abusers themselves.

Most kids who are abused do not act out the abuse in drastically obvious way like that at least, so that's good.

But the kids that do need help, not punishment