Acidote
Member
And probably destroying Podemos on a national level in the next elections. They're gonna crash and burn.
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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
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And probably destroying Podemos on a national level in the next elections. They're gonna crash and burn.
Acidote
Member
It's the same judge that has denied the public prosecutors office (called Fiscalía here) it's petition to sent to prison the chief of the Mossos d'Esquadra. She's passed from heroine to villain for some people in the matter of hours and viceversa, depending on if they liked her decision or not.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Podemos will get exactly what they deserve.
Trying to scratch away a few votes from the highly polarised Catalonian nationalist group while neglecting the rest of the country will bite them in the ass.
People voted them because they wanted change. Carrying water for Puigdemont while using the crisis to attack the PP instead of proposing a federal solution is such a stupid move. It's more of the same tribalistic, opportunistic politics so many voters rejected.
Trying to scratch away a few votes from the highly polarised Catalonian nationalist group while neglecting the rest of the country will bite them in the ass.
People voted them because they wanted change. Carrying water for Puigdemont while using the crisis to attack the PP instead of proposing a federal solution is such a stupid move. It's more of the same tribalistic, opportunistic politics so many voters rejected.
Yes things could have been done better from the independentist side, but also from the unionist one.
Acidote
Member
I used to have hope in them. Used to.
Lately I've just been tired of reading so much stupidity and inconsistency around them that they lost me. And that was way before they started proposing to give citizens of certain regions more rights than what the rest of the population have. And that is what's going to bite them harder.
I think that I miss the "negotiation" part in this whole discussion. There so much talk about negotiation while the actions are anything but.
Even this attitude about PSOE. Crazy.
gutter_trash
Banned
so Spain is not immune from the Far-Left calling the Establishment Center-Left party as "Right Wing"
deathkiller
Member
I couldn't facepalm enough when they began attacking PP for corruption during the Catalonia debate. They were like "we all need to talk about this because it is very important you fucking corrupts".
Any chance of dialogue thanks to them was obliterated then so PP will pretend that Podemos doesn't exists during the constitution reform meetings. I imagine that PP will accept some minimum reform to say "You see? we did reform the constitution once so lets not do that again for the next 30 years (unless banks ask us to do another)".
gutter_trash
Banned
Podemos' main problem is they friendly stance and relations with Russia.
it affects their disruptive stance on unity
it affects their disruptive stance on unity
People would accept the result and move on. I've already mentioned Quebec which is now settled as an issue. If Catalonia goes independent then most would accept it. Not sure what point you're trying to make apart from the usual FUD spreading.
Sigh. HOW can Catalonia have a legal and official poll if Madrid will NEVER allow it? What other option did it have? If the world followed the barking mad logic many spew here most countries would never exist.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
You want to cry right now because two persons who conspired to prevent court orders from being applied and carried on despite ample warnings, and then manifested that they'd keep going on after the fact, earned a remand. This was predicted days ago by legal experts.
I will never not be amused by the people warring against the judiciary to make a point and then acting indignant when the judiciary throws the book at them.
Worse than Turkey indeed.
You can't imagine how angry and frustrated i am right now. Not even close.
This may end not peacefully now.
Btw. saludos amigo, been a while
Peaceful mobilizations. But yes, they deserve to go to prison, sure.
gutter_trash
Banned
I'm all for democracy but not in back alleys controlled by one subjective group with zero oversight.
the mock Referendum can't be taken seriously by any democratic stretch. Just be more Scotland and Quebec and you will be taken more seriously
It's up to Spain to allow it.
https://twitter.com/arsenioescolar/status/918544241206480897
Separación de poderes mis cojones
I wouldn't go that far as to describe Spain as fascist. But it certainly does fall short compared to other democratic countries. The behaviour of Rajoy has had a particularily nasty authoritarian bent towards it.
What Spain is doing to Catalonia is NOT the behaviour of a normal democracy.
If you truly believed that you wouldn't be moaing about Catalonia holding a popular vote despite Madrid's attempts to block said exercise in democracy.
curi0usBystander
Member
This seem to be the reasons why they have been send to jail.
In short :
- They were the heads of the 20/21 manifestation.
- It seems likely that they will repeat what they've been doing (i.e. organize manifestations in favor of independence outside of spanish law).
- There is a high chance that they would destroy evidence or obstructing the investigation.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Blocking policemen from carrying court orders, and removing evidence from a Guardia Urbana car by means of using a mob is a sure way to earn a stern reprimand.
It's also not a conviction, as charges are yet to be judged, but a remand based on their willingness to obstruct justice and keep doing so. They could have walked out with minimum immediate consequences like Trapero, but opted to keep going on by their own volition.
It's one of those sentences that few newspapers will report right and that they'll inflame nationalist hearts across the country because the optics are admittedly negative, but most law experts warned that they were facing preemptive legal measures if they kept carrying on. And then they did so.
They blocked nothing. They promoted mobilizations to show our position against the police actions, many of them without the judge order, like they tried with CUP. They even asked manifestants to open a way for the police inside the buildings to leave without problems.
But they are being charged by sedition....
Is a peaceful manifestation illegal?
RSB
Banned
Yep. I'm sure the nationalists are actually very happy about this. Just another "argument" to add to their narrative of being oppressed by the evil Spain.
They called a protest trying to block the police from gathering evidence. Also I understood that the police was blocked quite a bit in the building and had to be evacuated. Once could call that obstructing justice, but it's up to the judge to decide.
If you and your friends gather around another friend's house and that friend is suspect in a criminal case and actively try to stop police from entering or gathering evidence or reach your friend then yeah, it can be illegal and you could be accused of obstructing justice if not even being an accomplice. Not every peaceful action is also legal.
deathkiller
Member
I don't know what kind of separation of powers would had help in this case. Judges are only human and they have their own bias even without anyone outside giving them orders.
If you can prove that was the case. They asked for mobilizations against that.
But well, what can we expect from a country that says we indoctrinate at schools...
I remember when ETA existed. Spanish government said, when they stop killing and leave violence behind, we can talk.
Bullshit
for starters many of the judges not being members of PP or even having ties with extreme right wing.
But you are probably right
Next step, 155, Millo virrey. Change Constitution to ban independentist parties. New autonomical elections, no opposition, problem solved
I mean, have you seen the evidence in this case? And the judge hasn't pronounced a sentence yet, but you already know for sure how it all went. Isn't that funny?
You can follow them on Twitter and check their tweets listen to their multiple interviews on tv and radio. Not a single word about blocking the police.
Just asking for mobilization against the way spanish government actions. no violence.
Ley mordaza was just a snack.
If you're so sure there is no evidence of any wrong doing then for sure they will be acquitted, no?
If they were arrested that means that the prosecutor has presented enough evidence for that. Most likely that they could destroy evidence. It's pretty common in cases of obstructing justice for the prosecutor to ask for arrest for this very reason. That the obstruction could continue. In the end the chief of Catalan police was not arrested in the same case.
And "check for their twitter" is a bit funny. They are not that stupid to write on twitter about doing illegal things, no? Like they are not Trump at least.
Edit: and I don't know how it's in Spain, but in a lot of countries the organisers of a protest are legally responsible for what's happening at the said protest.
Well they reach the masses via social media, not via pm.
The only pseudo evidence is WhatsApp message according to fiscalia that omniun, not anc, said about blocking G. Civil.
https://twitter.com/GeekIndignado/status/920015129625939969?s=09
Reminds me the titiriteros of Madrid some months ago, or the girl that posted a joke about C. Blanco on Twitter.
Just a normal democracy.
ClosingADoor
Member
So if we accept the notion that referendums are binding and the population afterwards will not change their minds, then the population of Catalonia has accepted a constitution with about 95% in favor which included them accepting to be part of Spain forever.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
If you had read the court order you would have noticed that the court order refers to events previous to the referendum and the police charges. The dates August 28th (setting up the means to coordinate mobs to prevent court orders from being applied) and September 25th (surrounding Guardia Urbana officers and removing police evidence from their car) are explicitly pointed out.
The referendum took place the 1st of October. So after the incidents named in the court order.
Taking the temperature of a judge and making educated guesses to coordinate strategy is basically the oldest thing in the law business. Expecting a remand for Cuixart and Sanchez while putting Trapero's on doubt is nothing extraordinary. The prosecutor's office probably counted on that since the start. As a matter of fact, it was widely predicted by legal experts as I pointed out in my previous message.
As for the separation of powers quip, I find that rich considering that Puigdemont's letter literally asked Rajoy to step in and block the judiciary by reverting the investigations. That's not only illegal, but far outside of the presidential powers. There's literally no legal mechanism to do it, and that's actually a good thing despite the many shortcomings of the Spanish legal system. At best, he could mess with the prosecutor and initiate a brand new constitutional crisis because the situation is not critical as it is.
Meanwhile, Puigdemont's disconnection laws explicitly stated that the president of the Higher Catalonian Court of Justice would be named by the Catalonian president upon the recommendation of five aides chiefly named by the new Catalonian government. It also estates that any court case being processed elsewhere would have to be reopened and started again in Catalonia, under a new judiciary that prioritized judges currently serving the Catalonian judiciary and forced those working for the State tribunals to reapply. This essentially means a blank slate that nukes away the many corruption cases in which members of the CiU coalition are indicted.
That absolutely insane legal framework is what the Catalonian government was meant to enact per their (suspended) mandate upon wining the referendum. That is literally what the separatist side voted on when they slipped the yes vote in. Articles 66.4, 68.1 and 68.4 of the Law of juridical transition and foundation of the Republic. And since I don't feel like being labeled an slanderous unionist, here's the full text at ElNacional.cat
Basically, people who voted yes have no leg to stand when it comes to criticising the Spanish judiciary. They basically agreed to create a new state with the explicit commitment to prevent the separation of powers.
This law gets brushed away because it's a ponderous issue that doesn't fill covers like a simpler story such as the referendum, but that's the issue at play: the Catalonian government issuing their own, wildly illegal laws with no apparent intention to back off. Way more than a flawed referendum with no real international support, the Law of juridical transition and foundation of the Republic is what's driving the Spanish judiciary and Rajoy's government.
Rajoy is a horrible person and a terrible politician, but the judiciary is not acting out of a festive mood here. Now we can debate if the remand is/is not harsh given the way the Spanish justice operates (which is to say that it prioritises letting people walk away during a case), but the legal principle is pretty clear and the judge names various evidence that points towards the leaders of the ANC and Omnium showing their reiterated contempt to the courts. We'll probably know a lot more when those intercepted communications and documents are released.
That's a very dumb thing to do.
Reading your answer helped me notice something: you could definitely say that Spain is like Francoland where you can find remains from the regime (as you properly showed) but just as signs from an older time. Yes, there are fascists here, but I guess that no country is free of them. Yet they are so few that people don't need to be afraid. Right wingers? Lots of them, but I like to make a distinction between right wing and fascism. And that's the whole point of the article: Spain is a democratic country, with many flaws (and as I said, you pointed out many shameful examples), fascism is mostly gone (the author points out many instances that would be impossible if in fact Spain were under a fascist regime). You are the one who is missing the point regarding the article, it's not trying to say that Catalonians think Spain is a fascist country, it's part of the international community who thinks it may well be.
The whole thing is in my post (the article is by Antonio Muñoz Molina).
Nationalists? Yes. Fascists? No, or less than what you think.
So because there are no massive demonstrations on the streets of Spain you say that the majority of the Spanish people agree with the way Rajoy is dealing with this. You know that lots of people feel that both parties should try to compromise, but you have two main actors who refuse to take a step back. And being an asshole I could say that the majority of the Catalonians didn't agree with the way things were handled by Puigdemont XD.
Anyway, I think that 2million+ people should be heard, no matter what and that just giving them a cold shoulder is just unethical.
forknknife
Banned
This is going to be such a mess.
But, again, really surprised about the reactions of many independists to this news. I mean, if you disobey the Spanish law, you don't recognize the court orders, you defy the police forces that carry out the orders and you declare that you will never do it... what's a judge supposed to do? What would a Catalan judge have done in a hypothetical independent state? Would they look the other way? Is a judge supposed to make an exception because it is a political crime? Then, where for you draw the line? When is a political stance free of all punishment and when not?
Having said that, I really really wish they would've just gone with a fine or something. This is the type of thing that can really escalate things rather quickly and not in a nice way.
But, again, really surprised about the reactions of many independists to this news. I mean, if you disobey the Spanish law, you don't recognize the court orders, you defy the police forces that carry out the orders and you declare that you will never do it... what's a judge supposed to do? What would a Catalan judge have done in a hypothetical independent state? Would they look the other way? Is a judge supposed to make an exception because it is a political crime? Then, where for you draw the line? When is a political stance free of all punishment and when not?
Having said that, I really really wish they would've just gone with a fine or something. This is the type of thing that can really escalate things rather quickly and not in a nice way.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
This is basically where I stand. Then again, it needs to be considered that the ANC and Omnium leaders walking away and then defying court orders again would only reinforce the notion of Catalonian separatists being able to do whatever they want without any real repercussions.
There is basically no good way out of this mess.
See how things are actually working? They finally let her out from Gurtel XD.
The Living Tribunal
Member
The spanish people owes nothing to those murderers. Fuck that shit.
el oh el
forknknife
Banned
Even though I'd agree that a condecoration by a PP minister already looks definitely shady, look a few tweets lower, he confused the judge Lamela with Espegel. Two different judges.
Murderers are one thing, being independentist is another one. This was about talking about different political options when violence stopped. That was a lie.
Btw, GAL also existed but González is a free bird.
You are right. My fault. Will leave my post however, it was my mistake to post that.
I am still altered tbh
marcbret87
Member
Honestly, talking about political prisoners is absolute bullshit. If the accusation is that they directed a mob to stop the police from doing their job and trap them in a building then they well deserve their conviction.
In any case, pro-independence groups should now be happy. They now have martyrs and they even call them political prisoners. They should be happy about that.
In any case, pro-independence groups should now be happy. They now have martyrs and they even call them political prisoners. They should be happy about that.
Yes we are very happy. Sure.
thiscoldblack
Unconfirmed Member
You're absolutely right. The police's job is to brutalize civilians.
This whole discussion and acusations are not about the referendum day.
marcbret87
Member
Sure, you should ask the Catalan police how they acted in 2011 when the parliament was surrounded.
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