(Ignores the fact that Burnham flat out attacks her Captain in the very first episode)
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Star Trek: Discovery |OT| To Boldly Stream Where No One Has Streamed Before
- Thread starter berzeli
- Start date
(Ignores the fact that Burnham flat out attacks her Captain in the very first episode)
Captain Skeleton
Member
It's that Vulcan arrogance coupled with Human emotions.
Good to know!
Well the reason I even entered this thread and made my post was to 'fact-check' the trailer I watched. So in essence I am literally following your example.
But sure, consider that many will not take the time to bother doing the same and they are left with only that 30s action clip, which it sounds like it maybe equally misleading to those drawn to a Klingon war epic.
The vulcan neck pinch is a disabling move. It's not meant to harm someone. I don't think it actually has any negative side effects on a person.
It's not just Vulcan arrogance. Intelligent people can rationalize anything, whether they are good or bad actions. Couple that with a person with stunted emotional growth, and you'll have issues for years to come.
edit: Or, to put it another way, Burham rationalizes her emotions. Vulcans eliminate them.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Vulcans do not eliminate emotions (that is a common misconception). They actually rationalize their emotions, or pass them through a logic filter which looks like suppression but it is not, they have to deal with their emotions. That is exactly the opposite Burham has done, she suppressed her emotions and tragic background and that now emerges out of her in every act. Shes does not act as a Vulcan neither as someone rised by Vulcans (whick looks like a show fault to me).
Well she had a pretty messed up childhood among those Vulcans so I can see why she doesn't really have Vulcan culture or psychology down.
I wonder if she will be shown engaging in any Vulcan spirituality, which is really interesting to me and I think a big part of how they are able to sublimate - but as you say, not eliminate - their emotions. "The universe unfolds as it should."
Yeah, I had to think, "Well, much, much stupider things have happened in Star Trek before," and then I was able to enjoy the effect.
Does that make Star Trek: Enterprise the earliest series? Chronologically at least.
Thanks for the answer.
It's strange because the little I did watch of old Stat Trek I didn't know they had instant space warping. Sounds broken af.
Himynameischris
Member
Don't know if you want to be spoiled but regarding space warping
it's not in any other series so obviously it's gonna fail in this series
Oh okay. It's fine to know since they expect fans to know. Thanks.
Defying orders to protect an innocent from being literally tortured to death - that gamble is all too pleasant a euphemism for what they were doing - is one of the most Starfleet things anyones done on this show so far. Its exactly the kind of action Id expect from a Starfleet officer whos genuinely worthy of the uniform.
SuperBanana
Banned
I really hope we get to see some more alien races soon. It would be a bummer if it's only human, klingon for 99% of it.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Yes, it is doomed to failure, but even so it does sound like a hole in the plot technologicsly speaking. Even if they cannot use the spores anymore, either by not finding any other creature like the tardigrade either by the its dna transfer to humans or another creature has serious drawbacks, the subspace living network should still be there and worth mentioned/studied in any other form. Unless the network itself is destroyed/killed in this series, but such catastrophic event may have some impact on space itself and should be a really worth note in Federation story. But again, unless another plot twist, covered operation or something. I will wait for my judgement.
Master Thespian
Member
Clem Fandango really seems very loose in his mannerisms. I think the explanation for whatever is going on with him is not quite as straight forward as is rumored.
I would agree with this, if Burnham didn't take it upon herself to risk the lives of the entire ship and her crew as a means of potentially preventing further risk to the creature. That wasn't her call to make, regardless of whether she was making a clearly moral choice in relation to the creature's wellbeing.
See: A more nuanced approach to this exact philosophical quandary by a character who measures both repercussions with a sense of genuine weight, the Doctor Who episode The Beast Below.
Himynameischris
Member
My guess
the whole network will get destroyed, as for not being mentioned again, the crazy stuff from TOS never gets mentioned in TNG and DS9/VOY etc. I don't think it's a big deal, especially if Star Fleet is keeping it hush hush
Himynameischris
Member
Wait, how did she risk the crew? The bugbear gave up after the jump, she had nothing to do with that. It was because of her concern they were able to develop the DNA mix that the guy used (I really have to learn the names) to bring them back. She didn't risk anyone and she's the reason they had an escape at all.
It wasn't Burnham's fault that Saru ignored her recommendation, her warning, and condoned further torture of Ripper, thereby leaving them stranded in Klingon space. In those circumstances, it was up to Burnham to do what was necessary to prevent further harm being inflicted on the being, and damn the consequences—the crew of the ship had agreed to be there, to fight and die for Starfleet's principles. Ripper very much had not.
If Starfleet travels about the universe, doing what they will to anyone, anything, they encounter, simply because it's convenient for them, then they have no right to boldly go anywhere, and the universe would be better off without them. Starfleet officers are supposed to recognise this principle, and act with integrity in upholding it, even - no, especially - in the face of unethical orders.
That the ends do not always justify the means is perhaps one of the most fundamental lessons of Star Trek.
bigjeffery
Member
Goddamn Tilly is so awful.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Destroying the network is something I can see Lorca deliberating doing in case the Klingons start to tapping it. Since Discovery is a shadow operation ship, makes sense no one else would know. But I keep thinking that 1) destroying such an huge living thing would have a sort of impact in all the galaxy 2) even if the event is classified it should be open and quite well know in better times like TNG (not TOS I agree). But it is usually Star Trek stuff.
chrominance
Member
Burnham didn't risk anyone. By the time the Discovery was in Klingon space, Burnham had already been confined to quarters, where she stayed until the end of the episode, after Stamets injected himself with the tardigrade DNA juice. Unless the argument is that she somehow forced Stamets to contravene Saru's orders, or that the mere presence of the tardigrade DNA juice is considered a risk to the ship and its crew, I don't really see how you can pin the blame on her for this.
We know it's not an oversight, so they have a plan. It getting destroyed makes sense. My guess is the Klingons ultimately do it in. Either way I'm guessing its destruction is in part why peace happens.
It's not a plot hole if it ends up being the Iconian Gateway tech.
I may be misremembering a critical detail from the episode (and if so, I apologise)...but didn't Burnham, Stamets and Tilly take the drive off-line at a critical moment during the recovery mission, during the trio's experimentation with gene-transfers.....thus leaving the Discovery stranded in Klingon space and potentially leaving it vulnerable to attack, in addition to compromising the time-sensitive mission to rescue Gabriel?
No, they took it offline before the jump to Klingon spacewhich, again, in my view was very much the right thing to do. (Though, as Ive pointed out, Id also have supported their disabling it afterwards, if it was the only way to prevent further torture.)
Himynameischris
Member
No that happened before they made the first jump,
That would actually tie it up nicely
If the new guy really is a spy then the Klingons learning about it and using it would make sense, and now that they let the bugbear go, I could see the Klingons capturing him.
Chiaroscuro
Member
They were not yet chasing the Klingons when Burnham warned Saru. Yes, I believe Burnham was being over emotional about the tardigrade but Saru has no problem to torture a sentient being if that helps him to rescue his captain. That is the sort of moral dilema Star Trek typically presents but I dont thing Piccard would agree with his decision. I understand Saru was under a lot of pressure but he simply desmissed Burnhams warning without thinking clearly. He made hushed decisions. Burnham told him that the tardigrade was about to failure/die, what he does? Ask for a blind jump deep in enemys territory. If the tardigrade dies the whole ship and crew would be stuck in Klingons space and probably face a considerable openent with unknow chances of victory. That only did not happen because of Stamets and his actions but Saru did not know that was possible (even asking to get the tardigrade to work by all means - did he really think that would work?). In resume Saru risk the ship and the crew to try to rescue the captain. Even if he was ordered to protect the secret he was giving all the technology in a plate to the Klingons doing it that way. Bad call to rescue, bad call to protect the secret. He was only saved by the actions from Stamets (or by the plot you can say). Rushed decisions over rushed decisions with no continge at all, a very bad officer in charge.
Himynameischris
Member
I think Saru was so dead set on succeeding he wasn't going to let anything else get in the way and since he doesn't trust Micheal at all, I can see why he completely dismissed her in that situation.
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In that case, Burnham's course of action was roundly justified...although I still maintain Saru would have been within his rights to officially reprimand her for disobeying a direct order, even if she had the moral high-ground in making her decision.
Nope before. Which wasn't bad because if they jumped without a potential way of getting back they'd be even more screwed. The advantage the Discovery has is jumping into an area, hitting their target, and jumping back out. Michael and the others were concerned they'd just be able to jump and that was it in addition to the creature's health. They were right because as soon as they jumped the creature went "no more". That's why they were stuck and what they were warning Saru about. It's also part of what the admirals were concerned about as well because they were using it so much and it's a finite resource. They were going to get stuck regardless in the end. Michael and crew are the reason why they were able to get out.
Chiaroscuro
Member
If the warning came only from Michael, yes I can see it. But both Stamets and the Doctor confirmed the warning. He did not listen them at all.
Plus, was it really that imperative to try to rescue Lorca by all means? He is not a key person in the spore drive research, he is the captain of the scientific ship. Even if the Klingons had success torturing him, they would only will have the vague idea of the spore network and drive, not its technic details. Even if the Klingons cientista start researching it that would take years to develop something worth. Now, to warp the scientific ship directly into Klingons hands, with all the tech inside and with the creator of all the science of it (Stamets) and all the scientific crew worth torturing, with no clear plan more than lets get there and with the possibility of not be able to return? That sounds bad decisions to me.
I feel like old Trek fans are trying to rationalize the creative decisions of this show with the established canon of old Trek. Totally almost unrelated but I feel that Jim Sterling's video this week on video game trailers or previews not reflecting the final product or misdirection can be applied with how the producers of this show say it's part of Prime continuity. From what I've seen, it feels like a clever way to lie and bait people into watching it hoping the pieces somehow come together.
I just can't fool myself into thinking Section 31, Garth of Izar, or some sort of extravagant way to tie up the visual and story continuity will happen with this series. Outside of some call backs and easter eggs (Tribbles, TNG sound effects(?), list of notable Captains) ... it's a different world with throwaway references and a few visual nods (like Starfleet insignia, ship design ... hell, they managed to somehow screw with the UFP emblem).
That said, we're about five or six episodes into a 15? episode season. We're halfway there. Most of the bridge officers still aren't characters as they are just reactionary cutaways or "yes captain" "no captain" or all look like they're about to have a heart attack.
I get their trying to make feuding characters with interpersonal conflicts but a lot of their logic or even personality waver from episode to episode coupled with dumb decision making. The dumb decisions are on the same level as intentionally taking a box of latex gloves and flushing them down the toilet. You're crazy. You have no idea how plumbing works. Explaining why you destroyed the plumbing to your landlord or family isn't going to sound any less crazy today as it will be a month from now ... which is why I think future Discovery episodes won't really give any satisfying closure to some of these characters.
I just can't fool myself into thinking Section 31, Garth of Izar, or some sort of extravagant way to tie up the visual and story continuity will happen with this series. Outside of some call backs and easter eggs (Tribbles, TNG sound effects(?), list of notable Captains) ... it's a different world with throwaway references and a few visual nods (like Starfleet insignia, ship design ... hell, they managed to somehow screw with the UFP emblem).
That said, we're about five or six episodes into a 15? episode season. We're halfway there. Most of the bridge officers still aren't characters as they are just reactionary cutaways or "yes captain" "no captain" or all look like they're about to have a heart attack.
I get their trying to make feuding characters with interpersonal conflicts but a lot of their logic or even personality waver from episode to episode coupled with dumb decision making. The dumb decisions are on the same level as intentionally taking a box of latex gloves and flushing them down the toilet. You're crazy. You have no idea how plumbing works. Explaining why you destroyed the plumbing to your landlord or family isn't going to sound any less crazy today as it will be a month from now ... which is why I think future Discovery episodes won't really give any satisfying closure to some of these characters.
Himynameischris
Member
Was that before or after the first jump? I thought it was after, in which case it was already too late and Saru had to decide between risking the lives of all the crew or the creature.
The Discovery is the only ship capable of going into Klingon territory in a war and coming back. Now if that's worth the risk of the ship and it's secrets, probably not I agree.
Chiaroscuro
Member
I remember the warnings came before the first jump. It would make no sense after since the creature would be already in protective mode.
Plus all the victories from Discovery with the use of the spore drive came with the surprise tactic. Jump in the action, destroy and jump back. How does that work in a rescue mission? To my understanding they cannot teletransport a rescue team inside a Klingon vessel without scanning it First (which will alert them) and cannot do that with the ship shields fully on (which a ship like that will probably stay on).
funkystudent
Member
I wonder what they do if they write away the spore drive in S1 and they make a S2
Its the whole point why the ship looks as dumb as it does.
Its the whole point why the ship looks as dumb as it does.
Kill Lorca, main characters go hang out on the Enterprise with Pike and Spock.
Himynameischris
Member
Hmm yeah you're right,
For a species that can sense the coming of death, it's got an awful bias towards Michael whenever she enters a scene and realizing not the big picture. If they're on the verge of losing the creature that would effectively allow them to escape Klingon territory (which, somehow the prison ship was able to skirt through Federation space to capture Lorca?), wouldn't his squiggly things being going off?
You cant state any of this with any confidence until you actually know how it plays out.
Himynameischris
Member
Hmm 14 season of tv....might take you awhile
It took me about 5 years to do a full run of all the star trek shows, but I watched them casually.
Chiaroscuro
Member
It only worked because of the plot. Stamets messing with his own dna and Lorca getting out of the Klingon ship by his own. Any other variation of the scenario and the Discovery is destroyed.