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[Strings]

I'm well aware that platform holders and retailers would have had to take their cut but when you say a game has a budget of $60m I would have taken that to include all costs such as manufacturing and marketing, maybe that's where my misunderstanding is but according to Wikipedia the game shipped nearly 2m in it's first week which I assume were all at full price.

EDIT: I'm dumb for misreading the OP in the first place. Disregard.

I'm not 100% when it comes to game budgets, but if it's anything like film, then they never, ever include marketing in the budget. Usually because it's a scary af number that dwarfs the production budget (a big reason why the $20-40m 'A' tier film has died out is because it's so awkward to sell - studios feel better spending $100m + on marketing $100m films instead of smaller ones).

 

[Bronetta]

If you're an investor you want a nice return , so wether you own a chunk of EA stock and sit on the board or just own a few shares , you want to see that value increase.

If your sole product as a business is video games then they have to sell well. As a third party EA makes about 35$ per disc sold on a 60$ game. So in Dead Space 2's case they maybe did half that 4 million figure out if the gate and the other half at some level of discount , for examples sake let's say half. 70 million in revenue initially and another 35 million for the long tale. That sounds like a 100 million dollars + right ? Well f development cost 60 million and marketing was even half development that means only 10 million in profit.

So 15-20 cents on every dollar invested over 4 years. That's not big enough for people playing the markets. Barely enough to cover inflation accumulated in a bare bones savings account.

People have been saying since the late PS2 era that the current track of development costs is unstustainable and now you can all see why. No one wants to pay 60$ per game let alone the 180$ they should cost (based on typical sales generations past) so anything that can't make back double its investment within 12 months gets cancelled or filled with ugly micro transactions and loot boxes.

That new Star Wars game ? Probably had 40-50 million dumped into it already but it must have hit a milestone recently where they made a call - spend another 40-50 to finish the game and then 50+ million to market it and , at best sell only enough to break even after 5 years OR spend the same amount and add enough garbage to the game to make an extra 25-50% of the investment back. EA chose the latter.

And we all know the issue with shareholders: maximum profits in minimum timeframes. Long term well being and sustainability of the industry be damned.

 

[Gator86]

Dead Space 3 had MTs. Thing is no one really bought them considering that A)not a lot of people bought the game in the first place and B)the game's balance was almost comically generous to the player since they were added so late in the game.

Dead Space 3 is trash. They shoved in MTs trying to make some cheap cash which pulled out of the experience. It also didn't help the game was wretched across the board. I'm not sure it's even relevant here aside from "this is how you fuck up something good." Dead Space 2 deserved massive success. Dead Space 3 killed the franchise, deservedly.

 

[Wink]

Well it depends on the game. $60 for Forza feels like a rip-off due to car packs and such, but no one would complain about paying $60 for persona 5.

That's why having the option is great. Persona 5 did everything right. High quality game, no bullshit attached. Giving the whole thing to people without preselling season passes or xp boosts (because it's actually a well balanced game) for 60 as well as having higher priced options for fans who were enthusiastic about paying more. It was a huge project for Atlus and sold on its reputation and quality, but they didn't go overboard on team size or budget I don't think, they didn't have to push it out before it was ready. They just did an excellent job all around (except with the LP restrictions) and I'd guess they are happy with the results.

It just shows that it's possible, but there's this giant publishers backed part of the industry chasing the next billion dollar maker because they only care about making all the money, not just profit, all the money and they don't do it with quality, trying out ideas and creativity, but investing insane sums of money in stuff conceived as a "sure thing" until oversaturation kicks in.
I don't think I'd cry bitter tears if that part of the gaming industry caves in on itself. Gaming itself will always be around in some form, it's not going away no matter how hard the triple a industry comes crashing down.

 

[redfox088]

Not about the current discussion, but would the general consensus be 2 is better than 1? I really enjoyed my time with the first one and the second has been in my library forever but haven't started!

Some glowing impressions might change that and push it ahead up my queue!

Ds2 is kind of like RE5....a sequel that failed to focus on the things that made the game before it special.

 

[Alter_Fridge]

Well I bought a copy so I can't be blamed

 

[Morts]

$60 million didn't sound like a lot to me until I saw someone mention a $20 million budget for Uncharted 2. I don't know how to explain that disparity, but $60 million sounds right for the insane production values and quality of Dead Space 2.

Easily the best game of the trilogy. I wish it had been more successful.

 

[Sanctuary]

Dead Space 2 is honestly up there with Resident Evil 4 as two of the greatest survival horror games - a real shame it wasn't a bigger success.

Yep. Both the first and second are actually in my top three (after my three-way tie for first) for survival/horror or action/horror. Sad that the game underperformed so badly, which might explain a whole lot regarding the third game.

Ds2 is kind of like RE5....a sequel that failed to focus on the things that made the game before it special.

Wrong. Dead Space 2 is to Dead Space what Resident Evil 4 is to REmake. Or better yet, the old Alien vs Aliens comparison. Both are fantastic for different reasons.

 

[Sygma]

The math is different with first party games because they can use tools directly from the manufacturer, only target a single platform, and co-market with the platform.

That is true ! well then lets take witcher 3, which is around 72.5 million €

Dead Space 2 was basically Aliens. They went all in but it was pretty unequal to say the least. Until chapter 8 the game was really painfully boring

 

[redfox088]

Well I bought a copy so I can't be blamed

Same. This is why I’ve gone all digital...sucks for my wallet but I want to support the people who make the games I love mainly because it’s a brutal industry to find success in. Most devs make games because they love what they do...I hope everyone from visceral can continue to do so.

 

[Flux]

With those kind of costs... Yeah it kind of makes sense for EA to get out of San Francisco. The cost of living is pricing out any reasonable development.

 

[EdgeXL]

That's why having the option is great. Persona 5 did everything right. High quality game, no bullshit attached. Giving the whole thing to people without preselling season passes or xp boosts (because it's actually a well balanced game) for 60 as well as having higher priced options for fans who were enthusiastic about paying more. It was a huge project for Atlus and sold on its reputation and quality, but they didn't go overboard on team size or budget I don't think, they didn't have to push it out before it was ready. They just did an excellent job all around (except with the LP restrictions) and I'd guess they are happy with the results.

It just shows that it's possible, but there's this giant publishers backed part of the industry chasing the next billion dollar maker because they only care about making all the money, not just profit, all the money and they don't do it with quality, trying out ideas and creativity, but investing insane sums of money in stuff conceived as a "sure thing" until oversaturation kicks in.
I don't think I'd cry bitter tears if that part of the gaming industry caves in on itself. Gaming itself will always be around in some form, it's not going away no matter how hard the triple a industry comes crashing down.

Persona 5 was also considerably cheaper to make.

 

[redfox088]

Persona 5 was also considerably cheaper to make.

Yea my original point was against the “actual games cost way more than $60” crowd. It’s very situational and no one who bought base persona should feel cheated. I understand that some games are bone dry at the $60 price point, but not all of them.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Yeah, but we know that Uncharted 1 and 2 combined cost 40m. So how the fuck did DS2 cost 60m? Games are obviously expensive, but i'm confused as to how they got the budget to DS2 up that high.

Do we know how much TLoU on PS3 cost to make?

 

[elelunicy]

They've mostly left.

With those kind of costs... Yeah it kind of makes sense for EA to get out of San Francisco. The cost of living is pricing out any reasonable development.

They still employ a couple hundred developers at their SF campus under Maxis, mainly working on The Sims 4 & The Sims Mobile. This is unlikely to change anytime soon as The Sims 4 is doing "extremely well" using EA's CFO's own words.

 

[Xenoblade]

Companies need to start sending out corporate spies to work for Nintendo to learn how to make games that don't cost $60,000,000

 

[Cels]

damn i love dead space 2. one of my favorite games of last gen.

i even have the ps3 collector's edition with the lightgun game ported from wii

$60mil though is nuts

 

[Alex_Mexico]

60 U.S. dollars * 4 million =
240 million U.S. dollars


it only cost 60 mil

I don't get it .

I paid $20 for a sealed copy a year or so after release. Subtract to that what the retailer got and EA probably made $9 out of my $20 purchase.

 

[kr2t0s]

Zelda’s goal isn’t to be profitable (whether or not it is, I don’t know) but it is to sell hardware units (switch) and be an “ambassador” of the overall Nintendo brand.

Dead space 2 was a game on multiple platforms. It’s goal was to be profitable. These are not apple to Apple comparisons.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

Jesus fucking christ, the AAA space needs to be revamped yesterday

Easier said than done. I mean, how would you lower costs? Even in a place like Poland where cost of living is far lower, a game like The Witcher 3 cost CD Red Project 81 million dollars. The simple fact is that games are expensive to make because of the time and manpower required to make the games consumers want to play. The Witcher 3 took 1,500 people globally over three and a half years to make. Resident Evil 7's credits, which people hail as a return to a more focused horror experience, has about 600 to 700 names in the credits and a dozen companies. And these costs are with horrible industry practices like crunch time and the like.

The days of a massive AAA main market game being made by 20 people in a small studio like Rare are gone.

 

[redfox088]

Companies need to start sending out corporate spies to work for Nintendo to learn how to make games that don't cost $60,000,000

Gameplay>graphics/fidelity I think...

 

[redfox088]

Easier said than done. I mean, how would you lower costs? Even in a place like Poland where cost of living is far lower, a game like The Witcher 3 cost CD Red Project 81 million dollars. The simple fact is that games are expensive to make because of the time and manpower required to make the games consumers want to play. The Witcher 3 took 1,500 people globally over three and a half years to make. Resident Evil 7's credits, which people hail as a return to a more focused horror experience, has about 600 to 700 names in the credits and a dozen companies.

The days of a massive AAA main market game being made by 20 people in a small studio like Rare are gone.

People were saying 30 mil earlier...is that because of marketing?

 

[A.J.]

I wonder how much less it would have cost without the mp mode.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I wonder how much less it would have cost without the mp mode.

Similarly as the MP cost is typically a small fraction compared to the campaign.

 

[rolandss]

This is why we have loot boxes, DLC, season passes and more than one way to make you pay for the same game twice.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

People were saying 30 mil earlier...is that because of marketing?

Yup. 30 million in production costs and about 50 million in marketing. You can generally double the production costs with marketing. And that's considered cheap by most AAA standards. Same with Metal Gear Solid V: Cost about 80 million in production alone, probably north of 100 million when marketing is factored in, and that's still considered about on par for an open world game.

In general, no matter where you are, unless you plan on spending nothing on marketing or work in the absolute cheapest of areas, you aren't getting costs below 30 to 50 million anymore. And again, this is with industry standards of working 15+ hour days and hiring contractors.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Dead Space 2 is honestly up there with Resident Evil 4 as two of the greatest survival horror games - a real shame it wasn't a bigger success.

Neither are survival horror. They straight up action games with a horror theme.

 

[JJH]

$60 million in marketing budget and this is what you get.

https://youtu.be/Pcm5M-KWQnM

 

[Instro]

Companies need to start sending out corporate spies to work for Nintendo to figure out how they're able to make games that don't cost $60,000,000

Well Zelda needed 2 million to turn a profit, so you can probably assume some of their games do/will cost that much.

 

[Duxxy3]

Western studios really need to get costs under control.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Companies need to start sending out corporate spies to work for Nintendo to learn how to make games that don't cost $60,000,000

Stop focusing on graphics and meaningless shit like individual hair physics.

But no, gotta show off this new hair tech engine, hair physics is what sells games after all.

 

[SargerusBR]

Neither are survival horror. They straight up action games with a horror theme.

By your logic DS1 was an action game too then.

 

[Steel]

Stop focusing on graphics and meaningless shit like individual hair physics.

But no, gotta show off this new hair tech engine, hair physics is what sells games after all.

It isn't even just that(Though that's a problem), it's the absolutely absurd marketing budgets.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

By your logic DS1 was an action game too then.

I replayed both not that long ago, DS2 is notably more action oriented than DS1.

 

[electricpirate]

Not totally sure where this magic Nintendo stuff is coming from.

Botw was 100plus developers over 5 years, and the total credits list over 300. Even assuming Japanese labor costs are 30 percent lower, that's at minimum 42 million usd, more likely it was over 60 million.

Still, that's on the low end for most AAA stuff today, but it's not like a tiny fraction that some people make it out to be.

 

[Audioboxer]

Stop focusing on graphics and meaningless shit like individual hair physics.

But no, gotta show off this new hair tech engine, hair physics is what sells games after all.

Most of the big studios or publishers use in house engines which may have been expensive to create, buy they get reused and tech passed around. I said that earlier with Horizon. Even although Guerilla probably spent a small fortune creating that engine, they'll use it for sequels and even got Kojima using it.

Marketing budgets seem a bit fucking loopy for some games. Probably blowing money on celebrities, or endorsement of some kind or other nonsense. Heck, you're probably just better handing your review copies to streamers a few weeks early these days and getting them to advertise you.

It doesn't surprise me why the big boys are so damn hostile around their precious metacritic being upset. So much so they'll turn things off for reviews or email reviewers who dish out "problematic" reviews. The marketing and PR side of the industry is mad. Borderline out of control if you ask me with some of these supposed budgets passed off to blow on marketing.

 

[James Scott]

Not totally sure where this magic Nintendo stuff is coming from.

Botw was 100plus developers over 5 years, and the total credits list over 300. Even assuming Japanese labor costs are 30 percent lower, that's at minimum 42 million usd, more likely it was over 60 million.

Still, that's on the low end for most AAA stuff today, but it's not like a tiny fraction that some people make it out to be.

I believe (unless it was mistranslated) that BOTW needed to sell 2M to break even.
I also don't imagine the team was that big for 5 years since they were experimenting with art styles near Wii U 's launch

 

[Ivan]

We should move all game development to eastern Europe.

 

[Duxxy3]

I'll always go back to Hellblade for threads like this.

Small team. Minimal advertising budget. And it was profitable.

That should be the model going forward. Instead we'll end up with enormous teams, enormous marketing budgets, and then massive losses and layoffs.

 

[KageMaru]

Wait, so it cost $60 million to make and another $60 million to market? The second tweet is confusing me.

 

[ShadyJ]

I bought Dead Space 2 day one, amazing game

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I believe (unless it was mistranslated) that BOTW needed to sell 2M to break even.
I also don't imagine the team was that big for 5 years since they were experimenting with art styles near Wii U 's launch

First party games also don't have the platform tax ($8-$10 a copy)

 

[James Scott]

Wait, so it cost $60 million to make and another $60 million to market? The second tweet is confusing me.

Marketing budgets are usually fairly costly.

 

[Doogdogg]

Wait, so it cost $60 million to make and another $60 million to market? The second tweet is confusing me.

If you spend 60M to make a game, you better market the hell out of it to justified the development cost.

 

[electricpirate]

I believe (unless it was mistranslated) that BOTW needed to sell 2M to break even.
I also don't imagine the team was that big for 5 years since they were experimenting with art styles near Wii U 's launch

No platform tax
Vertical integration with a store
Weak yen

On the other hand switch carts are more expensive

So yea, if miyamoto is focused on just dev costs, 2 million to break even fits with that budget roughly.

 

[Nirolak]

They still employ a couple hundred developers at their SF campus under Maxis, mainly working on The Sims 4 & The Sims Mobile. This is unlikely to change anytime soon as The Sims 4 is doing "extremely well" using EA's CFO's own words.

Oh, I mean that in the industry as a whole sense. Tons of studios shut down there.

Mind, there are a lot remaining, but people don’t open new studios there often and migrate out when they can.

 

[electricpirate]

Oh, I mean that in the industry as a whole sense. Tons of studios shut down there.

Mind, there are a lot remaining, but people don’t open new studios there often and migrate out when they can.

Where in the us are they going though? Los Angeles? Raleigh? Seattle? Austin? Not NYC for sure (I work in the mobile space here, avalanche is the only Aaa dev presence) pretty sure Boston and Maryland are drying up as well. Seems like Canada and outsourced is the most likely landing.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'll always go back to Hellblade for threads like this.

Small team. Minimal advertising budget. And it was profitable.

That should be the model going forward. Instead we'll end up with enormous teams, enormous marketing budgets, and then massive losses and layoffs.

Hellblade was very small in scope in comparison to modern triple A games.

Stop focusing on graphics and meaningless shit like individual hair physics.

But no, gotta show off this new hair tech engine, hair physics is what sells games after all.

Nintendo created an engine specifically for Breath of the Wild that has some of the most complex physics sims in the industry. That includes Link's model which is more complex than it's ever been. No, the grass didn't need to react to wind, but they added it anything, no, the hair on the horse doesn't need to move, but they added it anyway, no, they didn't have to create the largest Zelda game ever, they did anyway. These cost money to implement. The game is better for them.

 

[texhnolyze]

How did FFXV make a (huge) profit after years of development and that crazy marketing campaigb?

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

I guess that's that, what a shame.