Well, what do you think of it then?
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The Last Night: IGN Article [Quack Quack Slurp Slurp]
- Thread starter Bits N Pieces
- Start date
So if someone said I think Gears of War has a "good concept" you would think they were talking about how great the graphics are?
Please.
Zap Rowsdower
Banned
Ya just gotta love the people who are totally proud that they have no principles and think they're morally superior over the ones who do. They really are the most vapid people imaginable.
You should give Rain of Reflections a look.
I'd argue its already happening right now, especially in the USA.
So you're saying all devs are the same when it comes to expressing these questionable opinions? That none are capable of having these beliefs while keeping it to themselves or being respectable about it if possible? That the only choice devs have is to throw these opinions in our faces and dares us to react?
I am also really tired of people using "he said those things about feminism years ago, the plot has probably changed since then" as an airtight argument
It is literally just an assumption and we have proof his views haven't changed since then so what's more likely, the story reflecting his views or something completely different from his original vision?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The sad part is I wish we could get a game based on this.......just not from someone that could be part of the alt-right.
It reminds me of HBO's "If the Confederacy Won". I'd love to watch that show, just not from someone that's from the alt-right.
So are we now saying that we only want fiction that we can agree with? I personally dont agree with the idea of the game but I simply wouldnt buy it, as I imagine many in here will do the same.
What seems over the top is the constant vilifying of those that are comfortable enough to purchase it, or dont care enough to let it bother them. The holier than thou attitude is unnecessary. If you dont like it then dont support it but constantly ganging up on posters who think otherwise is pointless. There are people in here taking it personal that people are excited for a game that they themselves disagree with. Live and let live and all that.
I've already said "do you". I take issue with someone trying to make it seem like supporting this is the same as supporting a game where the concept is by all accounts, ordinary, but a bad person helped make it. They are fundamentally different. It's not holier than thou to point it out. It's pointing out that it's a failing of simple understanding. It's plain stupid.
Replace "it" with "a game where feminism winning turns society into a dystopia" and see whether that sounds any more reasonable.
Stone Ocean
Member
It's fiction. I think it's a pretty stupid scenario, but judging said stupid scenario as it how it would pan out in real life is silly. How it this any different from nazis taking over the world or South Korea invading the US?
People uncomfortable with it should absolutely not support it.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Because Nazis taking over america is usually not portrait as a good thing.
SomedayTheFire
Member
How is feminism different from Nazi's? Hmm lemme think
People are saying "I don't want this, and won't purchase this," not "ban this sick filth." That literally is "live and let live," it's just some people don't want shit ideas to permeate their free time. Particularly low-brow biggotry parading as intellectualism. It's not refusing to listen to new ideas. People are familiar with these ideas, they just reject them because they're vapid.
Because games with Nazis taking over the world have them as the bad guys you're fighting to overthrow. Here, you are literally fighting to overthrow "feminism."
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Well, I saw this video on Youtube about Feminazis so let me tell you all about it. It all began with Adam and Eve and
Ninja Scooter
Member
All these people outraged at Cosby or Weinstein are kinda funny you think your favorite actor isn't out there raping women willy nilly? No, they are.
Yer gonna leave me hangin?
More_Badass
Member
Stone Ocean
Member
I'm not saying this particular game won't be a shitshow in that regard. I'm just saying that I don't see how this is a scenario that can never be done. Fiction has dealt with extremists as villains for everything so I don't see how this is a "toxic idea" beyond the fact that the creator is making it a point to be as toxic about it as possible
There's a way this can be done. This isn't it.
Thats what Im saying, it doesnt have to sound reasonable. Its a game, a work of fiction. Playing a game like that is no different to watching a film with a plot that is nonsensical or uncomfortable. You dont have to agree with an idea to experience it.
Thats beside the point though to be honest, my main point was that people are often smothered by other posters for little more than disagreeing or being able to look past the issues.
arturo2666
Banned
Is the "feminism wins and leads to dystopia" bit still in the game? I believe that was one of the things that was reported from 3 years ago or whatever.
My worry is that the game is going to come out, still have shitty bigoted viewpoints, but that specific surface element will not be present. At which point every fucker from these threads that's defended the game is going to come out of the woodwork and exclaim how we were all wrong and the game's actually totally fine.
God that thread is going to be a trainwreck if it happens.
My worry is that the game is going to come out, still have shitty bigoted viewpoints, but that specific surface element will not be present. At which point every fucker from these threads that's defended the game is going to come out of the woodwork and exclaim how we were all wrong and the game's actually totally fine.
God that thread is going to be a trainwreck if it happens.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Please support me on Patreon and I will gladly tell you all about it.
.....you do realize Nazis are trying to take over the US, right?
SomedayTheFire
Member
Again, feminists are not extremists. Like damn equality of the people is good. You don't see what's outrageous about making that the driver of a dystopia? Painting feminism and thus equality of the sexes as bad is toxic, no matter what the context
Saint Gregory
Member
I'm not sure if the dev's original intention was to indocrinate players into the idea that feminism is a great evil that needs to be defeated lest we slide into dystopia but I'm not sure why he or anyone would think that's an idea worth exploring and basing an entire game around any more so than making a game where you explore how great the world would be if PoC didn't exist.
... Oh wait, I forgot that The Order:1886 already did that.
... Oh wait, I forgot that The Order:1886 already did that.
Well this is all too real.
"Please buy and consume my propaganda in it's entirety. Otherwise you're close minded. Please ignore that I outlined the fundmental way in which my concept is shit (while also supporting a hate movement related to it). It's unfair that you're not supplanting your self-interest with my own."
Because the scenario hes proposing is what if this good thing... was actually bad instead of, uh, Nazis.
Speculative fiction can be done. But pushing it as though it is truly a bad thing is the problem.
Weltall Zero
Member
Apparently my previous post's point flew over your head, so let me simplify it further:
"I have made mistakes in the past so I'm not allowed to do anything about other people's mistakes."
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
There are people who identify as feminists who are extreme and the vast majority of people, including other self-identifying feminists, disagree with them. There aren't enough of them that it really matters what they think and they certainly won't be deciding the future but there are extremists in every ideology and they are fair game for exploration in fiction.
I know that's not the type of feminism the game allegedly addresses but I think it's important to remember that all ideologies contain many strains and that someone referring to a feminist as an extremist isn't necessarily talking about vanilla equity feminism. Some people are though, of course, and they are turds.
I think the disconnect between me and the other posters here is that most people here look at this game targeting your everyday feminists - people who respect women and want everyone to have equal rights, which I consider myself a part of, even though I don't use that term to self-identify.
What I think this game targets, is the 'SJW' caricature of feminists - obnoxious, man-hating, #killallmen tweeting, manspreading denouncing women. Now of course, that's just a fringe element of modern feminism, but unfortunately that got amplified during twitter wars/shitslinging when GG happened.
Do I think that's a big enough issue that it's worth addressing at a large scale? No. 'Extreme' feminists are few and far between and if they act a fool like that Hula Hoop Lyft girl, they get exposed and made fun of on the internet. I do enjoy when cases of hysteria like that or the 'dreads' college girl get called out, and I would use the term SJW to refer to them unironically, so I'm different from many Gaffers in that aspect.
I'm not right-wing/alt-right. As an Indian my race is a common target of theirs. I don't think men are more/as much oppressed as women or any other bullshit MRAs believe. But I do think this could be an amusing subject to tackle as a video game, as long as it's done with a lot of subtlety. By that I mean I hope it doesn't read like it's written by a reddit/4chan manchild. Eg: "100 years ago, the social justice warriors won, and every dissenting opinion is now punishable by death". I don't want it to read like an MRA conspiracy/power fantasy. Do I think this developer is deft enough to walk that thin line? I don't know. Like I said, if it reviews well, I'd buy it because the concept sounds intriguing/amusing to me.
It sounds like the developer/game isn't about a dystopian society where women are in power, or a dystopia forming out of equality, rather a dystopia where hysterical extreme feminism is in power, which I admit is something that intrigues me. If I'm wrong, then the reviews will mention it and I'll just avoid it. I'm sure many of you will disagree with me, and some of you will hate me for it, but this is how I feel about this game.
Regarding the bolded, If that's confirmed to be the case I'd avoid it, but I had the impression its the former.
What I think this game targets, is the 'SJW' caricature of feminists - obnoxious, man-hating, #killallmen tweeting, manspreading denouncing women. Now of course, that's just a fringe element of modern feminism, but unfortunately that got amplified during twitter wars/shitslinging when GG happened.
Do I think that's a big enough issue that it's worth addressing at a large scale? No. 'Extreme' feminists are few and far between and if they act a fool like that Hula Hoop Lyft girl, they get exposed and made fun of on the internet. I do enjoy when cases of hysteria like that or the 'dreads' college girl get called out, and I would use the term SJW to refer to them unironically, so I'm different from many Gaffers in that aspect.
I'm not right-wing/alt-right. As an Indian my race is a common target of theirs. I don't think men are more/as much oppressed as women or any other bullshit MRAs believe. But I do think this could be an amusing subject to tackle as a video game, as long as it's done with a lot of subtlety. By that I mean I hope it doesn't read like it's written by a reddit/4chan manchild. Eg: "100 years ago, the social justice warriors won, and every dissenting opinion is now punishable by death". I don't want it to read like an MRA conspiracy/power fantasy. Do I think this developer is deft enough to walk that thin line? I don't know. Like I said, if it reviews well, I'd buy it because the concept sounds intriguing/amusing to me.
It sounds like the developer/game isn't about a dystopian society where women are in power, or a dystopia forming out of equality, rather a dystopia where hysterical extreme feminism is in power, which I admit is something that intrigues me. If I'm wrong, then the reviews will mention it and I'll just avoid it. I'm sure many of you will disagree with me, and some of you will hate me for it, but this is how I feel about this game.
This person said it more succinctly.
Regarding the bolded, If that's confirmed to be the case I'd avoid it, but I had the impression its the former.
edgefusion
Member
Soooo I'm guessing I won't be able to play a gay character?
Stone Ocean
Member
That sums up my point pretty well. I don't see the issue with extremist zealotry being painted in a bad light as long as its made clear that its supposed to be extremist zealotry and not a representation of the whole thing, which is something I doubt this game will care to do.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
You mean because, like most games, this one has a single, predetermined protagonist?
IIRC the guy said the MC is bisexual
i think what you're saying is reasonable - but its being made by a man who thinks like this:
CannonFodder52
Member
I'm kinda worried that they're trying to show some kind of future hedonism/degeneracy.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
He's an egalitarian, so I'm very interested in his take on this. And reading interviews about the game and his idea for it, doesn't seem like there's anything that would ruin the narrative. People just lose their shit when they see #gamergate, which he's said multiple times he regrets using.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
What exactly does he regret?
CannonFodder52
Member
Most feminists are egalitarians. A guy I know who thinks we should have white ethnostates, also claims to be egalitarian, I don't really know what you can glean from this.
And also he's still actively retweeting gamergaters.
yeah it's just about a hashtag
ForkNetwork
Banned
Has he? Aside from the flimsy token apology. He's still retweeting IMC and other gators, so I'm not sure he's the wisest guy
You seem open-minded so I think it might be worth reconsidering some of your stances.
- The SJW caricature was manufactured by the alt-right/GG/MRA crowd and is used primarily against completely reasonable feminists as a way to dismiss their arguments. Don't use this term.
- Why do you equate calling out manspreading with wanting to kill all men?
- "Hysterical extreme feminism" is probably a term you want to avoid, especially the "hysterical" part.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
You know, economists and social scientists (good ones at least) are interested in exploring the unintended consequences of policy or other types of social interventions. What this means is that they might look at a policy with morally good aims that does people a lot of good and ask if there are also negative consequences. They do so not to undermine the policy but to try to figure out whether it can be altered to maintain the benefits while reducing the unintended costs.
A world where "feminism won" whatever that really means would be a better world than we have now but it would have consequences beyond "men and women are equal now" because things are complicated. When social dynamics change people are affected positively and negatively and although it might be a net moral benefit there is nothing inherently wrong with exploring the possible downsides. You would have to in order to improve things. I might be being extremely charitable to Soret in thinking that this was what he was trying to get across in the Vice interview. This is, again, why I am waiting to read criticism of the final game before I decide whether I'm interested in playing it and what the moral ramifications of doing so might be.
A world where "feminism won" whatever that really means would be a better world than we have now but it would have consequences beyond "men and women are equal now" because things are complicated. When social dynamics change people are affected positively and negatively and although it might be a net moral benefit there is nothing inherently wrong with exploring the possible downsides. You would have to in order to improve things. I might be being extremely charitable to Soret in thinking that this was what he was trying to get across in the Vice interview. This is, again, why I am waiting to read criticism of the final game before I decide whether I'm interested in playing it and what the moral ramifications of doing so might be.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
Thread should've begun and ended with this in my humble opinion.
I used to think like this once too. When GG started, I was one of those people you'd make fun with the 'It's about ethics in game journalism' line. Most would say it was always ugly, and started on the basis of hate, and they'd be right, but I was too naive to see it that way. As a brown dude, the narrative of gamers being virginal, basement-dwelling white dudes also bothered me and I while I never was a participant, it turned me into a silent lurker on their forums like reddit.
But it happened fast, right wingers and fuckboys like Milo or Sargon became figureheads of the movement, it went from anti-extreme feminism to anti-'any female representation' and it became large enough that my friends in the game design school in my university (USC) started getting scared, and that finally let me see the light and I stopped following or associating with anyone unironically championing GG.
That's why I don't get bothered by old tweets of this dev, because I can relate since I was that stupid once. But I see other posters mention that he's still retweeting GG'ers, which makes me rethink my stance on this. Anyone who willingly aligns themselves with GG now is really moronic.
I agree that it is used so commonly now that it's lost all purpose. And it's used to refer to anyone championing for equality. For example: a friend watches a lot of 'SJWs rekt compilation' videos on youtube which are usually just clickbaity videos of rational feminists being talked down to by right wing celebrities like Shapiro or Crowder.
However, I do believe that the types of people the term SJWs ought to refer to, or the way I use it, do exist. Like the aforementioned Hula Hoop girl or Zarna Joshi, to name a couple.
I'm not equating the two, I was just painting a picture of the kind of person I was referring to.
Okay. Extreme feminist is what I use instead of SJW. Can you suggest any other terms for the kind of people I'm referring to?
EDIT: I went to the dev's twitter and scanned his tweets over the last couple weeks. I didn't find anything that was from gamergators. I feel like he might be retweeting them because they are tweeting reactionary praise for his game after all the hate he's getting from his old tweets being discovered.