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[SomedayTheFire]

And yet none of this can be derived from the trailer or his recent interview. So simply as a matter of curiosity I want to know what this game actually has in it.

The dude said some stupid shit for sure. That point has been made.

He has recent straight up anti women tweets too. There's a load in the original thread about it. The trailer has literally nothing in it and the interview has more than one straight up lie in it to save his bacon. the lie based on recent tweets he made prior to E3, as I said mentioned in the original thread.

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

Vague?

Come the fuck on. Unless you think GamerGate is vague.

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but how do we know what this game is about? The most I've seen are some very vague comments about feminism and dystopia from the creator. Sounds a little weird and possibly offensive, but the dude obviously has a vision, so I'm willing to see where it goes. It's the prejudging that I don't understand.

Also, just as an addendum: You literally compared him to a homophobe, a rapist and a wife-beater. That's not a great defense to begin with but to pull the "I don't know enough about this tbh" card after doing that is, again, weird.

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

Again, multiple people here mentioned that he kept retweeting Gamergaters even after his apology. If you want to engage in this thread, please at least take the effort and read what people post. I'm not even going to get into how much an apology is worth after you discover that your comments might impact your finances.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

The concept of the game is built around gamergate ideals. Unless that has changed why would his apology matter for shit? But I get it, you're "just asking questions". Your MO is pretty transparent dude.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

Not really. He said he shouldn't have used the GG hash tag and pretended he never said anything more than that even though there are more recent tweets about it. His "apology" was a lie

 

[kevin1025]

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

In this case the question becomes, did he apologize because he truly does not believe something he liked and believed not even a month before the apology, or did he say it to save a business deal?

 

[xxracerxx]

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

It was a light PR apology to save face after this all came to light, his twitter history after the apology says he hasn't really changed his views.

And to your second sentence, stop it.

 

[poodaddy]

I was beyond into it and immediately sold when I saw the art style. Then I read those tweets.... Think I'll pass.

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

Also, just as an addendum: You literally compared him to a homophobe, a rapist and a wife-beater. That's not a great defense to begin with but to pull the "I don't know enough about this tbh" card after doing that is, again, weird.

I did no such thing. I was not making any kind of direct comparisons. The point I was making was about how art can be great even when the artist is an asshole. Out of the examples I mentioned, having a distasteful political opinion is pretty tame!

 

[BiggNife]

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

For someone who claims to be open to different opinions you sure seem to aggressively shut down everyone who disagrees with you

 

[ForkNetwork]

I was beyond into it and immediately sold when I saw the art style. Then I read those tweets.... Think I'll pass.

Same honestly, the artstyle is one of the best I've ever seen. But Tim Soret is absolute trash so that ship has sailed.

 

[Dragner]

Ill buy. Guy is trash?. Hope he can sleep with that. I wont punish the rest of the development team for 1 guy being sexist scum. Game still looks amazing.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I did no so thing. I was not making any kind of direct comparisons. The point I was making was about how art can be great even when the artist is an asshole. Out of the examples I mentioned, having a distasteful political opinion is pretty tame!

Women shouldn't be equal doesn't sound tame to me

Ill buy. Guy is trash?. Hope he can sleep with that. I wont punish the rest of the development team for 1 guy being sexist scum. Game still looks amazing.

Uh it'd being made by one guy.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I did no so thing. I was not making any kind of direct comparisons. The point I was making was about how art can be great even when the artist is an asshole. Out of the examples I mentioned, having a distasteful political opinion is pretty tame!

Dude.
You just made a comparison again.
Like....really?

 

[DrunkDan]

I didn't say any of those things. Fiction you don't agree with is fine, it can even be illuminating and you're free to enjoy it. However, I take issue with the notion that fiction is totally separate from the real world. It's not. Fiction is always at least somewhat based on reality and it can help shape reality and our understanding of it. Its status as fiction doesn't shield it from any sort of criticism. And that's what I did in my post: I criticized this game and I directed criticism at people who make false correlations in trying to defend this project - for instance, comparing this project to Polanski's movies or Naughty Dog's games, in both cases missing the point that in this particular case the concept is based on GamerGate "ideals"; also, linking the game's concept to its assuredly beautiful visuals, which is a vapid stance on the issue. I didn't say people couldn't buy this product, they're free to do that (though I really believe they shouldn't, since that's my personal stance on the issue - I would never willingly support hate speech).

I agree with most of what you say but I disagree slightly in that I think fiction can be totally separate, or at least that people are more than capable of differentiating the two and can consume media without having to take it as fact or propaganda. I wasn’t aiming my post directly at you though, it wasn’t intended to be combative, more thinking out loud.

I also agree that there is a difference between this and the examples you posted - Polanski films especially. But I feel that regardless of the dev’s views people aren’t going to play the game and come away with warped views (not that it couldn’t happen, but that it would be unlikely). I believe that people can buy and enjoy a game for what it is rather than what it stands for. Now if people don’t want to support that game then good for them, taking a stand like this is definitely a way that will eventually produce results in the long run.

My main point, again not aimed directly at you so I apologise if it came across that way, was more based around the fact that many posters on here can’t accept that other people may not have the same moral standards and take it personally that others don’t hold themselves to an equal level. That in itself is fine providing you don’t let that get to a point where you feel the need to gang up on the few outliers. It’s an ever increasing trend that is popping up in all types of threads on here and I just find it to be a little bit hypocritical considering some seem to pick and choose what they find acceptable depending on what they personally enjoy.

Nothing personal anyway man. I kinda used your post as a springboard for what I was trying to get across. We’re not all going to agree on everything all the time but at least we can have sensible discussion for the most part on here.

 

[mckmas8808]

Here's the deal. If this game is literally about how feminism was the primary cause of the world falling apart, everything I said is moot and the guy is a dipshit and his game will be garbage.

If, and I think this is more likely the case, the setting is a dystopia in which a number of significant social changes have occurred, only one of which has to do with gender dynamics, then I will reserve judgment based on how it is actually handled, what the game has to say about it, and whether it simply raises questions or takes sides in a clumsy and stupid way.

I doubt that a game will be able to capture all of this stuff in a sophisticated way, but that's a separate issue from any possible political agenda.

I can tell you mean well, but this is literally the developer's tweet about the premise.

This points more to your post that I bolded than anything. Like he literally trying to tell you.

 

[xxracerxx]

Ill buy. Guy is trash?. Hope he can sleep with that. I wont punish the rest of the development team for 1 guy being sexist scum. Game still looks amazing.

I mean, the game is based off those sexist scum ideas. You don't think the other team members know?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I did no so thing. I was not making any kind of direct comparisons. The point I was making was about how art can be great even when the artist is an asshole. Out of the examples I mentioned, having a distasteful political opinion is pretty tame!

In those cases the art wasn't directly informed by and in defense of the character flaws of the artist. If Chinatown were about Jake Gitties being unfairly persecuted because he likes to have sex with underage girls, or if Revolver were about how men should be allowed to beat their wives, it would be a little harder to separate the art from the artist and your comparison might have some merit. But they don't, so your comparison just ends up being shitty and a pretty blatant and transparent attempt at deflection.

 

[HyGogg]

I don't think this premise is any more "alt-right" than, say, Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Like yes, it presents a vision for a dystopia premised on good intentions gone awry, but that seems like fair game in speculative fiction. It's grossly misstated to lump that in with something as ugly as white supremacy.

It is pretty antithetical to the cyberpunk genre, so it maybe loses some cyberpunk cred, but I can deal with that.

 

[xxracerxx]

I don't think this premise is any more "alt-right" than, say, Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Like yes, it presents a vision for a dystopia premised on good intentions gone awry, but that seems like fair game in speculative fiction. It's grossly misstated to lump that in with something as ugly as white supremacy.

No no no no no no no.

 

[Dragner]

I mean, the game is based off those sexist scum ideas. You don't think the other team members know?

I will judge that by myself. I usually just learn little about games to not spoil myself. If the game is an ode for sexism I will steam refund the hell out of it.

 

[kevin1025]

I did no such thing. I was not making any kind of direct comparisons. The point I was making was about how art can be great even when the artist is an asshole. Out of the examples I mentioned, having a distasteful political opinion is pretty tame!

But the point you're ignoring is that none of your examples have their questionable views baked into the projects you mentioned, as positives. This one does.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I can tell you mean well, but this is literally the developer's tweet about the premise.

This points more to your post that I bolded than anything. Like he literally trying to tell you.

The interview says the game is about a lot of things. I simply don't believe a lavishly produced game with the backing of a platform holder will boil down to "SJWs ruined the world!"

I realize I'm privileging some of his statements over others. But that's the bet I'm willing to make.
If I'm wrong I'll eat crow and live out the rest of my days in shame.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

The interview says the game is about a lot of things. I simply don't believe a lavishly produced game with the backing of a platform holder will boil down to "SJWs ruined the world!"

I realize I'm privileging some of his statements over others. But that's the bet I'm willing to make.
If I'm wrong I'll eat crow and live out the rest of my days in shame.

The interview after this whole thing went down? The interview where he's fighting fires he lit himself? Honestly?

 

[Pygrus]

Man, that art team is going to waste. Game just looks good but so bad at the same time. It's some sort of paradox.

 

[xxracerxx]

The interview says the game is about a lot of things. I simply don't believe a lavishly produced game with the backing of a platform holder will boil down to "SJWs ruined the world!"

I realize I'm privileging some of his statements over others. But that's the bet I'm willing to make.
If I'm wrong I'll eat crow and live out the rest of my days in shame.

The interview conducted by a personal friend of one of the dev team?

MS is taking a huge calculated risk on this game betting that people will not latch on to the controversy.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

He did, I'm all for forgiving someone for being stupid.

....but he did it again. He retweeted stuff from gamergate supporters, etc.

So as it stands I'm not buying the game. There's too much he did and has done to think that he's a changed man.

The interview says the game is about a lot of things. I simply don't believe a lavishly produced game with the backing of a platform holder will boil down to "SJWs ruined the world!"

I realize I'm privileging some of his statements over others. But that's the bet I'm willing to make.
If I'm wrong I'll eat crow and live out the rest of my days in shame.

Yeah, you're right, it probably wouldnt but that was the original intent, and there has been nothing really in the past few weeks, other than words that shows this has changed. If it has, good!

 

[Griss]

I don't think this premise is any more "alt-right" than, say, Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Like yes, it presents a vision for a dystopia premised on good intentions gone awry, but that seems like fair game in speculative fiction. It's grossly misstated to lump that in with something as ugly as white supremacy.

It is pretty antithetical to the cyberpunk genre, so it maybe loses some cyberpunk cred, but I can deal with that.

This is exactly how I see it. I think the reaction to the game's premise is absurd, and based entirely around the reaction to the guy himself, who allied himself with the rightfully hated GamerGate movement and whose thoughts about sexism and race are ignorant and misguided at best.

The dev? Not a cool guy. But the premise of the game itself? Nothing wrong with it. I think it's interesting, in the same way The Giver or The Handmaid's Tale are interesting.

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

I don't think this premise is any more "alt-right" than, say, Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Like yes, it presents a vision for a dystopia premised on good intentions gone awry, but that seems like fair game in speculative fiction. It's grossly misstated to lump that in with something as ugly as white supremacy.

It is pretty antithetical to the cyberpunk genre, so it maybe loses some cyberpunk cred, but I can deal with that.

Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.

 

[ZeoVGM]

IIRC didn't he apologize for some of the gamergate stuff? I guess nobody accepts apologies anymore so maybe it doesn't matter.

He kept supporting GamerGate after the apology.

And it doesn't change the fact that the game was created with this intent. The game is the same. He didn't change the intent of the game.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

This is exactly how I see it. I think the reaction to the game's premise is absurd, and based entirely around the reaction to the guy himself, who allied himself with the rightfully hated GamerGate movement and whose thoughts about sexism and race are ignorant and misguided at best.

The dev? Not a cool guy. But the premise of the game itself? Nothing wrong with it. I think it's interesting, in the same way The Giver or The Handmaid's Tale are interesting.

I don't understand how the dev can be "not a cool guy" based on his views, but the game he's making about those views is cool?

 

[FlutterPuffs]

This is exactly how I see it. I think the reaction to the game's premise is absurd, and based entirely around the reaction to the guy himself, who allied himself with the rightfully hated GamerGate movement and whose thoughts about sexism and race are ignorant and misguided at best.

The dev? Not a cool guy. But the premise of the game itself? Nothing wrong with it. I think it's interesting, in the same way The Giver or The Handmaid's Tale are interesting.

Yep, a matriarchal dystopian world is something I find that can make as a very interesting tale. Just doubt that this guy can do it justice, with everything he has said and done.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

The interview conducted by a personal friend of one of the dev team?

MS is taking a huge calculated risk on this game betting that people will not latch on to the controversy.

Are you impugning the integrity of Rob Zacny and the Vice organization?

 

[adversarial]

Vague?

Come the fuck on. Unless you think GamerGate is vague.

I've seen old school prominent feminists decry "modern" feminism since some of the practitioners who promote this ideology are misandrists and don't consider men as "equals", but as bugs to be stepped on.

Could this be what he means by "modern" feminism? I notice he didn't generalize and spoke to a specific subset of the ideology.

Or is he just a GamerGate douche?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I've seen old school prominent feminists decry "modern" feminism since some of the practitioners who promote this ideology are misandrists and don't consider men as "equals", but as bugs to be stepped on.

Could this be what he means by "modern" feminism? I notice he didn't generalize and spoke to a specific subset of the ideology.

Or is he just a GamerGate douche?

Look at the hashtags. That tells you the answer.

 

[fargofallout]

Mario Odyssey comes out next week guys. Next week! Can you believe it!

I’m bummed about this game because the art is amazing. And in seeing the endless back and forth in this thread, I came across this post, and it made me smile. Odyssey DOES come out next week! Thank you, kind internet person.

 

[HammerFace]

I've seen old school prominent feminists decry "modern" feminism since some of the practitioners who promote this ideology are misandrists and don't consider men as "equals", but as bugs to be stepped on.

Could this be what he means by "modern" feminism? I notice he didn't generalize and spoke to a specific subset of the ideology.

Or is he just a GamerGate douche?

I mean I figured it was kind of obvious based off of the #gamergate and then the continued retweets of gamergaters after he apologized.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't think this premise is any more "alt-right" than, say, Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Like yes, it presents a vision for a dystopia premised on good intentions gone awry, but that seems like fair game in speculative fiction. It's grossly misstated to lump that in with something as ugly as white supremacy.

It is pretty antithetical to the cyberpunk genre, so it maybe loses some cyberpunk cred, but I can deal with that.

Is it because you might agree with what the speculative fiction is displaying (in relation to feminism leading to a dystopia), whereas you don't agree with white supremacy in any forms?

 

[Griss]

I don't understand how the dev can be "not a cool guy" based on his views, but the game he's making about those views is cool?

And I can't understand how you don't get it.

But to explain, I guess the point is that I don't demand that fiction be aligned with my political worldviews or come from people I agree with. Michel Houellbecq's Submission is pretty blatantly anti-muslim, as is the man himself, but the book is still a scenario I find very interesting as the plot for a fictional story and I absolutely love the way he writes. I don't need to like the man or his politics to enjoy his fictional works.

Likewise, I can love the politics of some speculative fiction, like say the movie Children of Men, and hate the film itself because it bores me or the pacing is off or the worldbuilding is lacking or whatnot. My agreement with the author's worldview never has any impact on my enjoyment of a work.

Also, this comment shares my stance on this particular game a lot.

Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.

--

Yep, a matriarchal dystopian world is something I find that can make as a very interesting tale. Just doubt that this guy can do it justice, with everything he has said and done.

Now THAT is a concern, because the guy comes across as a total moron with very limited understanding of social dynamics, and that could be a real problem for a writer.

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

I’m bummed about this game because the art is amazing. And in seeing the endless back and forth in this thread, I came across this post, and it made me smile. Odyssey DOES come out next week! Thank you, kind internet person.

Haha, yes at least we can all agree on that. That's why gaming is such a great hobby. We can get all hot and bothered arguing about politics but come together to celebrate new Mario!

 

[ZeoVGM]

This is exactly how I see it. I think the reaction to the game's premise is absurd, and based entirely around the reaction to the guy himself, who allied himself with the rightfully hated GamerGate movement and whose thoughts about sexism and race are ignorant and misguided at best.

The dev? Not a cool guy. But the premise of the game itself? Nothing wrong with it. I think it's interesting, in the same way The Giver or The Handmaid's Tale are interesting.

The premise is not the same thing as The Handmaid's Tale as the premise comes from the creator's hatred of women.

These are not remotely similar situations.

Intent matters. This game was literally designed as an attack on women.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.

How many are based on minorities winning equal rights? Because that's what GG was railing against and what they fear, not being overrun, but even the notion of equality.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

The premise is not the same thing as The Handmaid's Tale as the premise comes from the creator's hatred of women.

These are not remotely similar situations.

Yeah, the analogy isn't remotely similar

 

[mckmas8808]

Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.

How do you feel about HBO's Confederate TV show that they are making?

 

[Tonedeff]

Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.

This is where I'm at. Will definitely look out for this game, it's fucking gorgeous

 

[More_Badass]

I don't think this premise is any more "alt-right" than, say, Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Like yes, it presents a vision for a dystopia premised on good intentions gone awry, but that seems like fair game in speculative fiction. It's grossly misstated to lump that in with something as ugly as white supremacy.

It is pretty antithetical to the cyberpunk genre, so it maybe loses some cyberpunk cred, but I can deal with that.

Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.

There’s a difference between good intentions gone awry (ie most utopian fiction) and good intentions/values/etc framed as inherently bad. Someone writing a story where the idea of society accepting that “all people are equal” leads to society collapsing and disaster is going to be cricitized for writing a racist and xenophobic story.

See the book The Camp of the Saints as an example

Stephen Bannon...has a favorite metaphor he uses to describe the largest refugee crisis in human history.

“It’s been almost a Camp of the Saints-type invasion into Central and then Western and Northern Europe,” he said in October 2015.

...But the top Trump aide’s repeated references to The Camp of the Saints, an obscure 1973 novel by French author Jean Raspail, reveal even more about how he understands the world. The book is a cult favorite on the far right, yet it’s never found a wider audience. There’s a good reason for that: It’s breathtakingly racist.

“[This book is] racist in the literal sense of the term. It uses race as the main characterization of characters,” said Cécile Alduy, professor of French at Stanford University and an expert on the contemporary French far right. “It describes the takeover of Europe by waves of immigrants that wash ashore like the plague.”

The book, she said, “reframes everything as the fight to death between races.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...aints-immigration_us_58b75206e4b0284854b3dc03

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

How do you feel about HBO's Confederate TV show that they are making?

After Game of Thrones, I'm interested in anything David Benioff and D.B. Weiss do next.

 

[HyGogg]

This is exactly how I see it. I think the reaction to the game's premise is absurd, and based entirely around the reaction to the guy himself, who allied himself with the rightfully hated GamerGate movement and whose thoughts about sexism and race are ignorant and misguided at best.

The dev? Not a cool guy. But the premise of the game itself? Nothing wrong with it. I think it's interesting, in the same way The Giver or The Handmaid's Tale are interesting.

Yeah, the guy sounds like someone I would not want to hang out with. But I don't really have to. I think wasting more breath on it than that only feeds the fire. A lot of these young "anti-PC" warriors are not real conservatives as much as just idiots who are made uncomfortable by public discussions of discrimination and just try to dig in on their blissfully oblivious worldview.

 

[Griss]

The premise is not the same thing as The Handmaid's Tale as the premise comes from the creator's hatred of women.

These are not remotely similar situations.

Intent matters. This game was literally designed as an attack on women.

The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.

Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.

 

[ScaryShark]

There's nothing easier to do than not purchase a video game. I won't be touching this.