airmangataosenai
Member
God this game is gorgeous.
God this game is gorgeous.
Yeah, the guy sounds like someone I would not want to hang out with. But I don't really have to. I think wasting more breath on it than that only feeds the fire. A lot of these young "anti-PC" warriors are not real conservatives as much as just idiots who are made uncomfortable by public discussions of discrimination and just try to dig in on their blissfully oblivious worldview.
The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.
Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.
The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.
Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.
Yeah, the guy sounds like someone I would not want to hang out with. But I don't really have to. I think wasting more breath on it than that only feeds the fire. A lot of these young "anti-PC" warriors are not real conservatives as much as just idiots who are made uncomfortable by public discussions of discrimination and just try to dig in on their blissfully oblivious worldview.
Interesting word choice given the history of that word in particular...
Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.
Interesting word choice given the history of that word in particular...
The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.
Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.
We at Raw Fury believe in equality, believe in feminism, and believe everyone has a right and chance at the equal pursuit of happiness. We would not be working with Tim Soret / Odd Tales at all if we believed they were against these principles in any aspect.
The comments Tim made in 2014 are certainly surprising and dont fit the person we know, and we hope that everyone reading this who knows us at Raw Fury on a personal and professional level knows that we wouldnt tolerate working with someone who portrays the caricature of Tim going around the internet right now.
The wording of his statements toward feminism in 2014 was poor, and his buying into GamerGate as a movement on the notion that it represented gamers against journalists was naive, but in the same year he also cheered the rise of women in gaming. . .
A lot can change in three years, including viewpoints, and Tim has assured us that The Last Night does not spout a message steeped in regressive stances.
i dont think hysteria is still a gendered word in the public consciousness.
His conscience presumably.
After Game of Thrones, I'm interested in anything David Benioff and D.B. Weiss do next.
Interesting word choice given the history of that word in particular...
GamerGate is a lot more than a criticism of feminism. Nice gaslighting though.
I don't know about that, plenty of conservatives I meet in the real world froth at the mouth over anything they see as "PC".
#gamergate and #notyourshield screams that this is not a criticism of feminism, but rather an attack.
With these people? The Milo Yainnapolous/GamerGate crowd? I'm not totally sure. These are people who literally only ever bitch about the left. They don't have any ideals or values of their own. They began as a reaction to the left, and now they're more or less a trolling of the left. The reaction not only doesn't help, it's literally their end goal.Ignoring it is worse though.
But that's exactly what I'm saying. They're not ideologues, they're just reacting to the left. They have no principles of their own. At best they might be "libertarians" or some childish nonsense, but for the most part I think they just get off on upsetting people that they see as overreacting.I don't know about that, plenty of conservatives I meet in the real world froth at the mouth over anything they see as "PC".
MS is taking a huge calculated risk on this game betting that people will not latch on to the controversy.
The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.
Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.
I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.
Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.
I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.
Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.
I don't know if he has "owned up to", but he has apologized and said that he is a different person and so is the premise of the game. Ofcourse we don't know yet how the story of the game will be. But it's confirmed that Vivian James won't be making an apperance afterall.I thought the guy owned up to some of the shitty things he said? He sounded pretty earnest talking about it last I saw. He's been working on this game for a long time and I don't think its still the "if femenism won" thing
No it's not just him, but a really small team.Uh it'd being made by one guy.
That's like saying you hate the Nazis, but you think we should give Richard Wagner's new single, "Fuck Jewish People" a chance before we judge.I have never once done anything other than criticise Gamergate. I found the movement revolting. Once again the failure here is not seeing that I am separating the author from the work - which I made clear given earlier examples.
It is the most appropriate word for the atmosphere surrounding this game. Multiple people exaggerating something to be far worse than it is and getting overexcited / overworried - pretty much the dictionary definition of hysteria.
I also was not talking to a woman, so it was hardly some coded gender insult.
I have never once done anything other than criticise Gamergate. I found the movement revolting. Once again the failure here is not seeing that I am separating the author from the work - which I made clear given earlier examples.
That is a tweet external to the text itself. What we know of the game - that it's set in a dystopia that was caused by feminism - is not automatically an attack on women. And again, I don't think criticism of feminism is an attack on women in the first place. It's a political viewpoint, just one that happens to be extremely unpopular here because the accepted definition of feminism on this site is 'belief in the equality of men and women' rather than 'a series of socio-political beliefs'. Unsurprisingly it's the second definition I find to be accurate.
OmgBasically according to gaf, if you've ever said anything even remotely racist or misogynistic, you're a pile of shit
I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.
Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.
#NotYourShield is a hashtag campaign launched by advocates of the GamerGate movement to highlight women and minority groups in the video game community who share their views, while seeking to expose those who claim to speak on behalf of the said groups as a way to deflect criticism against the anti-GamerGate camp.
This entire thread is about how the guy who said messed up shit 3 years ago was called out at E3, made a passive PR apology and then continued doing the same things on Twitter that he was doing 3 years ago. Calling out his bullshit and the game that is built on those beliefs is the issue.But of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about these issues, but we should maybe be more strategic in the way we do it. Like, debunking racists and sexists when they make garbage claims is helpful and even persuasive. But just pointing at someone and calling them racist has been shown to have the opposite effect. The focus should always be on policy and truth, not personality and values, because the latter are unwinnable battles.
That seems unlikely. Most people outside of this website are never going to see those tweets or know about a controversy. I certainly wouldn't have suspected any ill will if I hadn't been paying attention to the E3 reveal thread.
The trailer and steam description are just typical cyperpunk fare. The average gamer is going to come across promotional videos on IGN or the xbox dashboard and see a game with cool looking visuals and think nothing more of it.
Check out some of the thread fyi.
I mean, it is gorgeous.
I just wanted to say I really do appreciate your posts.Theres a difference between good intentions gone awry (ie most utopian fiction) and good intentions/values/etc framed as inherently bad. Someone writing a story where the idea of society accepting that all people are equal leads to society collapsing and disaster is going to be cricitized for writing a racist and xenophobic story.
See the book The Camp of the Saints as an example
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...aints-immigration_us_58b75206e4b0284854b3dc03
It was not just 3 years ago, there were tweets from the month before E3.This entire thread is about how the guy who said messed up shit 3 years ago was called out at E3, made a passive PR apology and then continued doing the same things on Twitter that he was doing 3 years ago. Calling out his bullshit and the game that is built on those beliefs is the issue.
I don't see many people here calling people names because they are willing to ignore the premise of the game and the creators "ideals", they are more taken aback that people would want to support someone that has them.
I actually made a request from a guy that claimed name calling to be the case to provide those responses, but he ghosted.
So you are agreeing with me that it is a calculated risk. They are relying on people not knowing about all of this.
True. I can't resist a good av quote though.
It was not just 3 years ago, there were tweets from the month before E3.
I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.
Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.
What kind of Tweets?Then why is he still liking tweets from gamergaters? Clearly he just got better at hiding his agenda.
I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.
Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.
So many drive by posters saying the game looks good and ignoring the duck in the room, and their post history is nothing but Xbox threads...
You can't even spend thirty seconds looking at the thread before doing your listwars operation?
But has he changed the premise of the game though within those last 3 years?
Then why is he still liking tweets from gamergaters? Clearly he just got better at hiding his agenda.
The thing is Tim still likes stuff from prominent GGers. A person that believes in feminism wouldn't be liking tweets from Ian Miles Cheong.
I don't see how they can say with a straight face that his tying up the game with GamerGate has to do with Gamers vs Corrupt Journalism (which it was never really about) instead of attack against Women in Gaming and Feminisn in general
Sadly I do not know of this Cheong guy
but while I still think this thing is being blown a little off proportion
Ignoring it is how we got here in the first place.Yeah, the guy sounds like someone I would not want to hang out with. But I don't really have to. I think wasting more breath on it than that only feeds the fire. A lot of these young "anti-PC" warriors are not real conservatives as much as just idiots who are made uncomfortable by public discussions of discrimination and just try to dig in on their blissfully oblivious worldview.
In all seriousness, that's something that kinda terrifies me about this game, precisely because it's true. The game is beautiful-looking. And I'm sure lots of the GG crowd, and racists, sexists, etc, are paying pretty damn close attention to this game and how it's received and perceived and shit. Because unfortunately, there seems to be a terrifying message here, based on the reactions in discussions about this game: that while people recognize that what those people have to say is terrible and NORMALLY never even so much as give it the time of day, cover it in a beautiful coat of paint, and suddenly people are completely receptive to it, and bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, assume everything will be okay, and absolutely just have to try it and experience it for themselves.But the game does look good though. We can't argue against that.
That tweet does point out the problems geek culture has when it comes to treatment of women. I'd retweet it too!the tim they "knew" as of E3 2017
how well do they know tim now?
No. It's a disingenuous "gotcha" concern trolling tweet.That tweet does point out the problems geek culture has when it comes to treatment of women. I'd retweet it too!
In all seriousness, that's something that kinda terrifies me about this game, precisely because it's true. The game is beautiful-looking. And I'm sure lots of the GG crowd, and racists, sexists, etc, are paying pretty damn close attention to this game and how it's received and perceived and shit. Because unfortunately, there seems to be a terrifying message here, based on the reactions in discussions about this game: that while people recognize that what those people have to say is terrible and NORMALLY never even so much as give it the time of day, cover it in a beautiful coat of paint, and suddenly people are completely receptive to it, and bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, assume everything will be okay, and absolutely just have to try it and experience it for themselves.
And that's what terrifies me about this game: if it ends up being successful, no doubt the rest of the GG/4chan/KiA/etc brigade will just keep doing the same thing: make games about the most absolutely terrible stuff, with terrible, pure hateful messages and themes, but just make sure the games have beautiful, stunning artwork/ art direction and the like since apparently that's all it takes to get people's attention. Just the coat of paint. All else will be ignored, as long as it looks pretty.
That certainly ain't a path I want to walk down, with the GG crowd being emboldened by the success of the game and doing the same thing in the future to get their "message" out (since apparently it's that easy to get people's ears), so I can only hope that this game completely craters and the whole thing just falls on its face.
But based on stuff like the IGN piece this thread is about and shit, I'm just scared about how effective tactics like this may in fact be and that we probably will end up seeing more of this in the future, and not less. I hope I'm wrong, but seeing how eager people are to eat this game up simply because it's beautiful and bend over backwards to give the creators and particularly the writer the benefit of the doubt simply because of that fact and that they just have to try it regardless makes me fearful that I'm not, and that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
Yeah, I'm sure his intentions weren't pure there. I mean it's a good thing to bring awareness to, but ofcourse he is using it as something to get back at "SJW:s" and not actually caring about the harassment probably.No. It's a disingenuous "gotcha" concern trolling tweet.