Support NeoGAF

[airmangataosenai]

God this game is gorgeous.

 

[arturo2666]

God this game is gorgeous.

Check out some of the thread fyi.

 

[xxracerxx]

Yeah, the guy sounds like someone I would not want to hang out with. But I don't really have to. I think wasting more breath on it than that only feeds the fire. A lot of these young "anti-PC" warriors are not real conservatives as much as just idiots who are made uncomfortable by public discussions of discrimination and just try to dig in on their blissfully oblivious worldview.

Ignoring it is worse though.

 

[arturo2666]

The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.

Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.

Interesting word choice given the history of that word in particular...

 

[SledGod]

The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.

Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.

GamerGate is a lot more than a criticism of feminism. Nice gaslighting though.

Yeah, the guy sounds like someone I would not want to hang out with. But I don't really have to. I think wasting more breath on it than that only feeds the fire. A lot of these young "anti-PC" warriors are not real conservatives as much as just idiots who are made uncomfortable by public discussions of discrimination and just try to dig in on their blissfully oblivious worldview.

I don't know about that, plenty of conservatives I meet in the real world froth at the mouth over anything they see as "PC".

 

[kevin1025]

Interesting word choice given the history of that word in particular...

It certainly is.

 

[CopperPuppy]

Totally agree. Science fiction and fantasy are full of "be careful what you wish for" kind of stories. I'm a supporter of feminism, but I can imagine it -- or any positive social movement -- becoming corrupted if taken in an absolutist authoritarian direction. This is legitimate grounds for speculative fiction.

So you're just going to keep ignoring all of the posts pointing out how Soret continued to parrot GG shit even after his "apology"?

 

[timetokill]

Guys this new Milo book is amazing... I mean sure what it's saying is despicable but have you seen the FONT he uses?

 

[petghost]

Interesting word choice given the history of that word in particular...

i dont think hysteria is still a gendered word in the public consciousness.

 

[xxracerxx]

The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.

Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.

#gamergate and #notyourshield screams that this is not a criticism of feminism, but rather an attack.

 

[jimmythepage]

I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.

“We at Raw Fury believe in equality, believe in feminism, and believe everyone has a right and chance at the equal pursuit of happiness. We would not be working with Tim Soret / Odd Tales at all if we believed they were against these principles in any aspect.

The comments Tim made in 2014 are certainly surprising and don’t fit the person we know, and we hope that everyone reading this who knows us at Raw Fury on a personal and professional level knows that we wouldn’t tolerate working with someone who portrays the caricature of Tim going around the internet right now.

The wording of his statements toward feminism in 2014 was poor, and his buying into GamerGate as a movement on the notion that it represented gamers against journalists was naive, but in the same year he also cheered the rise of women in gaming. . .

A lot can change in three years, including viewpoints, and Tim has assured us that The Last Night does not spout a message steeped in regressive stances.”

Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.

 

[PolishQ]

i dont think hysteria is still a gendered word in the public consciousness.

It definitely is. It's not a coincidence that it frequently appears in the context of anti-feminist rhetoric.

 

[Einchy]

His conscience presumably.

mfw trying to weight my love for cyberpunk with my conscience.

 

[mckmas8808]

After Game of Thrones, I'm interested in anything David Benioff and D.B. Weiss do next.

But have you heard or know about the terrible controversy that it's in?

 

[Griss]

Interesting word choice given the history of that word in particular...

It is the most appropriate word for the atmosphere surrounding this game. Multiple people exaggerating something to be far worse than it is and getting overexcited / overworried - pretty much the dictionary definition of hysteria.

I also was not talking to a woman, so it was hardly some coded gender insult.

GamerGate is a lot more than a criticism of feminism. Nice gaslighting though.

I don't know about that, plenty of conservatives I meet in the real world froth at the mouth over anything they see as "PC".

I have never once done anything other than criticise Gamergate. I found the movement revolting. Once again the failure here is not seeing that I am separating the author from the work - which I made clear given earlier examples.

#gamergate and #notyourshield screams that this is not a criticism of feminism, but rather an attack.

That is a tweet external to the text itself. What we know of the game - that it's set in a dystopia that was caused by feminism - is not automatically an attack on women. And again, I don't think criticism of feminism is an attack on women in the first place. It's a political viewpoint, just one that happens to be extremely unpopular here because the accepted definition of feminism on this site is 'belief in the equality of men and women' rather than 'a series of socio-political beliefs'. Unsurprisingly it's the second definition I find to be accurate.

 

[HyGogg]

Ignoring it is worse though.

With these people? The Milo Yainnapolous/GamerGate crowd? I'm not totally sure. These are people who literally only ever bitch about the left. They don't have any ideals or values of their own. They began as a reaction to the left, and now they're more or less a trolling of the left. The reaction not only doesn't help, it's literally their end goal.

But of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about these issues, but we should maybe be more strategic in the way we do it. Like, debunking racists and sexists when they make garbage claims is helpful and even persuasive. But just pointing at someone and calling them racist has been shown to have the opposite effect. The focus should always be on policy and truth, not personality and values, because the latter are unwinnable battles.

I don't know about that, plenty of conservatives I meet in the real world froth at the mouth over anything they see as "PC".

But that's exactly what I'm saying. They're not ideologues, they're just reacting to the left. They have no principles of their own. At best they might be "libertarians" or some childish nonsense, but for the most part I think they just get off on upsetting people that they see as overreacting.

 

[apieceofstrange]

MS is taking a huge calculated risk on this game betting that people will not latch on to the controversy.

That seems unlikely. Most people outside of this website are never going to see those tweets or know about a controversy. I certainly wouldn't have suspected any ill will if I hadn't been paying attention to the E3 reveal thread.

The trailer and steam description are just typical cyperpunk fare. The average gamer is going to come across promotional videos on IGN or the xbox dashboard and see a game with cool looking visuals and think nothing more of it.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

The bolded is frankly insane hysteria.

Criticism of feminism is not an attack on women. It is an attack on a series of political viewpoints. Criticism of viewpoints is not an personal attack. This is also fictional, meaning that it's at least one step removed from any kind of actual political argument and into the realm of allegory whereby one's personal interpretation can make a huge difference to the message being sent.

Well that's what I disagree with you, because this is what the writer has done, whether it was intentional or not.

It's not insane, because there is this from him:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=240119412&postcount=1

It's not insane to think that this could be the case, because we have seen these opinions.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.



Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.

But has he changed the premise of the game though within those last 3 years?

 

[Kinsei]

I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.



Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.

The thing is Tim still likes stuff from prominent GGers. A person that believes in feminism wouldn't be liking tweets from Ian Miles Cheong.

 

[Budi]

I thought the guy owned up to some of the shitty things he said? He sounded pretty earnest talking about it last I saw. He's been working on this game for a long time and I don't think its still the "if femenism won" thing

I don't know if he has "owned up to", but he has apologized and said that he is a different person and so is the premise of the game. Ofcourse we don't know yet how the story of the game will be. But it's confirmed that Vivian James won't be making an apperance afterall.

Uh it'd being made by one guy.

No it's not just him, but a really small team.

 

[Discotheque]

I'd be more comfortable with playing this if the creator didn't put his own stupid views into the game itself. Plus with it being an indie game more of the money goes directly to his pocket

I'm fine with art from plenty of deplorable people, but id draw the line at their beliefs seeping into their work prolly

Shame. It does look like an awesome game visually

 

[SledGod]

I have never once done anything other than criticise Gamergate. I found the movement revolting. Once again the failure here is not seeing that I am separating the author from the work - which I made clear given earlier examples.

That's like saying you hate the Nazis, but you think we should give Richard Wagner's new single, "Fuck Jewish People" a chance before we judge.

 

[8byte]

It is the most appropriate word for the atmosphere surrounding this game. Multiple people exaggerating something to be far worse than it is and getting overexcited / overworried - pretty much the dictionary definition of hysteria.

I also was not talking to a woman, so it was hardly some coded gender insult.



I have never once done anything other than criticise Gamergate. I found the movement revolting. Once again the failure here is not seeing that I am separating the author from the work - which I made clear given earlier examples.



That is a tweet external to the text itself. What we know of the game - that it's set in a dystopia that was caused by feminism - is not automatically an attack on women. And again, I don't think criticism of feminism is an attack on women in the first place. It's a political viewpoint, just one that happens to be extremely unpopular here because the accepted definition of feminism on this site is 'belief in the equality of men and women' rather than 'a series of socio-political beliefs'. Unsurprisingly it's the second definition I find to be accurate.

You can do all the mental gymnastics you want, it doesn't change the fact that his game portrays a decay of society because of feminism, and it doesn't change the fact that feminism is about equality. What you extrapolate from here is that equality caused the decay of society in this title.

Also, it's hard for me to really buy into anything anyone says about "change" when their motivations are largely financial.

 

[gngf123]

The second I found out about the Gamergate supporting dev and how it influenced the story of the game, I lost all interest in the project.

Not supporting that shit at all.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Basically according to gaf, if you've ever said anything even remotely racist or misogynistic, you're a pile of shit

Omg

 

[Elandyll]

I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.



Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.

I don't see how they can say with a straight face that his tying up the game with GamerGate has to do with Gamers vs Corrupt Journalism (which it was never really about) instead of attack against Women in Gaming and Feminisn in general

#NotYourShield is a hashtag campaign launched by advocates of the GamerGate movement to highlight women and minority groups in the video game community who share their views, while seeking to expose those who claim to speak on behalf of the said groups as a way to deflect criticism against the anti-GamerGate camp.

 

[TGO]

This Xbox One exclusive, ie never coming to PlayStation 4?
^^ Wow really?
I might be on my own here but that actually intrigues me more, I mean what does that even mean?

 

[xxracerxx]

But of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about these issues, but we should maybe be more strategic in the way we do it. Like, debunking racists and sexists when they make garbage claims is helpful and even persuasive. But just pointing at someone and calling them racist has been shown to have the opposite effect. The focus should always be on policy and truth, not personality and values, because the latter are unwinnable battles.

This entire thread is about how the guy who said messed up shit 3 years ago was called out at E3, made a passive PR apology and then continued doing the same things on Twitter that he was doing 3 years ago. Calling out his bullshit and the game that is built on those beliefs is the issue.

I don't see many people here calling people names because they are willing to ignore the premise of the game and the creators "ideals", they are more taken aback that people would want to support someone that has them.

I actually made a request from a guy that claimed name calling to be the case to provide those responses, but he ghosted.

That seems unlikely. Most people outside of this website are never going to see those tweets or know about a controversy. I certainly wouldn't have suspected any ill will if I hadn't been paying attention to the E3 reveal thread.

The trailer and steam description are just typical cyperpunk fare. The average gamer is going to come across promotional videos on IGN or the xbox dashboard and see a game with cool looking visuals and think nothing more of it.

So you are agreeing with me that it is a calculated risk. They are relying on people not knowing about all of this.

 

[Shredderi]

Check out some of the thread fyi.

I mean, it is gorgeous.

 

[arturo2666]

I mean, it is gorgeous.

True. I can't resist a good av quote though.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

There’s a difference between good intentions gone awry (ie most utopian fiction) and good intentions/values/etc framed as inherently bad. Someone writing a story where the idea of society accepting that “all people are equal” leads to society collapsing and disaster is going to be cricitized for writing a racist and xenophobic story.

See the book The Camp of the Saints as an example

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...aints-immigration_us_58b75206e4b0284854b3dc03

I just wanted to say I really do appreciate your posts.

This entire thread is about how the guy who said messed up shit 3 years ago was called out at E3, made a passive PR apology and then continued doing the same things on Twitter that he was doing 3 years ago. Calling out his bullshit and the game that is built on those beliefs is the issue.

I don't see many people here calling people names because they are willing to ignore the premise of the game and the creators "ideals", they are more taken aback that people would want to support someone that has them.

I actually made a request from a guy that claimed name calling to be the case to provide those responses, but he ghosted.



So you are agreeing with me that it is a calculated risk. They are relying on people not knowing about all of this.

It was not just 3 years ago, there were tweets from the month before E3.

 

[Shredderi]

True. I can't resist a good av quote though.

xD

 

[Colbert]

Just watched it. Amazing. Even how they planned and cut the IGN video itself. A must watch for every gamer!

 

[xxracerxx]

It was not just 3 years ago, there were tweets from the month before E3.

I know.

 

[nynt9]

I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.



Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.

Then why is he still liking tweets from gamergaters? Clearly he just got better at hiding his agenda.

 

[Budi]

Then why is he still liking tweets from gamergaters? Clearly he just got better at hiding his agenda.

What kind of Tweets?

Edit: Sorry, seems like those tweets were already pointed out. I'll go through them.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Let's try to address all the defenses so far:

- "What's wrong with the dev? His game looks cool!"

The (lead artist) was, and probably still is, a full-blown Gamergater:

​

- "You can separate the artist from the art. I don't care about his politics. Orson Scott Card blah blah"

Orson Scott Card's books aren't about his homophobia, so this analogy doesn't work (it would if he did inject his beliefs into his works). Of course it's fine to boycott Card's books regardless, mind. But The Last Night was said to be explicitly about "a feminist dystopia".​

- "That was in 2014. He since apologized. Let's wait until the game is out to see its actual contents."

Yet in 2017 he was still Liking and Retweeting stuff from Gamergaters and outspoken misogynists such as Ian Miles Cheong. Example:

Now perhaps the final game will not have a misogynistic agenda after all, but there is zero reason to believe his claims that he "changed".
​

- "It's just one dev, not the whole team."

The game's writer is also pretty sketchy, Liking/Retweeting more Ian Miles Cheong shit. (Note, since I wrote that linked post, it appears the article in question got deleted, this was a few months ago -- unless the writer posted clarifications recanting this, however, he's no better than Soret.) The game isn't made by a huge team, it's essentially made by Soret and this guy.​

- "Hey, the premise might still work if done well"

A "feminist dystopia" premise, written about by Gamergaters? Yeah, this totally deserves the benefit of doubt because... reasons. 🤔​

Anymore goalpost moving crap we gotta tackle now? xD

 

[AlexFlame116]

Anything new or has IGN not said anything yet? Or has anyone else picked up on this?

 

[Alucrid]

I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.



Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.

the tim they "knew" as of E3 2017

how well do they know tim now?

 

[Vimes]

So many drive by posters saying the game looks good and ignoring the duck in the room, and their post history is nothing but Xbox threads...

You can't even spend thirty seconds looking at the thread before doing your listwars operation?

 

[mckmas8808]

So many drive by posters saying the game looks good and ignoring the duck in the room, and their post history is nothing but Xbox threads...

You can't even spend thirty seconds looking at the thread before doing your listwars operation?

But the game does look good though. We can't argue against that.

 

[jimmythepage]

But has he changed the premise of the game though within those last 3 years?

It's up to him to clear this, apparently it's something not being addressed anymore since the infamous tweet.

Then why is he still liking tweets from gamergaters? Clearly he just got better at hiding his agenda.

The thing is Tim still likes stuff from prominent GGers. A person that believes in feminism wouldn't be liking tweets from Ian Miles Cheong.

I don't see how they can say with a straight face that his tying up the game with GamerGate has to do with Gamers vs Corrupt Journalism (which it was never really about) instead of attack against Women in Gaming and Feminisn in general

Sadly I do not know of this Cheong guy, but while I still think this thing is being blown a little off proportion, it's clear some stuff needs to be addressed by both the dev and the publisher. Not only to tone things down, but also because it would be such a great damage to let this project be tainted by kind of stuff, everything of it seems quite unreasonable.

 

[Alucrid]

Sadly I do not know of this Cheong guy

ok i don't expect everyone to know who he is

but while I still think this thing is being blown a little off proportion

but after admitting you don't know who he is i fail to see how you can be qualified to say this. even without knowing him that tweet is enough bullshit that i fail to see why any decent person would like it on twitter. also, they've had months now? ain't said shit, ain't done shit.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Yeah, the guy sounds like someone I would not want to hang out with. But I don't really have to. I think wasting more breath on it than that only feeds the fire. A lot of these young "anti-PC" warriors are not real conservatives as much as just idiots who are made uncomfortable by public discussions of discrimination and just try to dig in on their blissfully oblivious worldview.

Ignoring it is how we got here in the first place.

 

[ShironRedshift]

But the game does look good though. We can't argue against that.

In all seriousness, that's something that kinda terrifies me about this game, precisely because it's true. The game is beautiful-looking. And I'm sure lots of the GG crowd, and racists, sexists, etc, are paying pretty damn close attention to this game and how it's received and perceived and shit. Because unfortunately, there seems to be a terrifying message here, based on the reactions in discussions about this game: that while people recognize that what those people have to say is terrible and NORMALLY never even so much as give it the time of day, cover it in a beautiful coat of paint, and suddenly people are completely receptive to it, and bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, assume everything will be okay, and absolutely just have to try it and experience it for themselves.

And that's what terrifies me about this game: if it ends up being successful, no doubt the rest of the GG/4chan/KiA/etc brigade will just keep doing the same thing: make games about the most absolutely terrible stuff, with terrible, pure hateful messages and themes, but just make sure the games have beautiful, stunning artwork/ art direction and the like since apparently that's all it takes to get people's attention. Just the coat of paint. All else will be ignored, as long as it looks pretty.

That certainly ain't a path I want to walk down, with the GG crowd being emboldened by the success of the game and doing the same thing in the future to get their "message" out (since apparently it's that easy to get people's ears), so I can only hope that this game completely craters and the whole thing just falls on its face.

But based on stuff like the IGN piece this thread is about and shit, I'm just scared about how effective tactics like this may in fact be and that we probably will end up seeing more of this in the future, and not less. I hope I'm wrong, but seeing how eager people are to eat this game up simply because it's beautiful and bend over backwards to give the creators and particularly the writer the benefit of the doubt simply because of that fact and that they just have to try it regardless makes me fearful that I'm not, and that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

 

[Budi]

the tim they "knew" as of E3 2017

how well do they know tim now?

That tweet does point out the problems geek culture has when it comes to treatment of women. I'd retweet it too!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That tweet does point out the problems geek culture has when it comes to treatment of women. I'd retweet it too!

No. It's a disingenuous "gotcha" concern trolling tweet.

 

[admiraltaftbar]

In all seriousness, that's something that kinda terrifies me about this game, precisely because it's true. The game is beautiful-looking. And I'm sure lots of the GG crowd, and racists, sexists, etc, are paying pretty damn close attention to this game and how it's received and perceived and shit. Because unfortunately, there seems to be a terrifying message here, based on the reactions in discussions about this game: that while people recognize that what those people have to say is terrible and NORMALLY never even so much as give it the time of day, cover it in a beautiful coat of paint, and suddenly people are completely receptive to it, and bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, assume everything will be okay, and absolutely just have to try it and experience it for themselves.

And that's what terrifies me about this game: if it ends up being successful, no doubt the rest of the GG/4chan/KiA/etc brigade will just keep doing the same thing: make games about the most absolutely terrible stuff, with terrible, pure hateful messages and themes, but just make sure the games have beautiful, stunning artwork/ art direction and the like since apparently that's all it takes to get people's attention. Just the coat of paint. All else will be ignored, as long as it looks pretty.

That certainly ain't a path I want to walk down, with the GG crowd being emboldened by the success of the game and doing the same thing in the future to get their "message" out (since apparently it's that easy to get people's ears), so I can only hope that this game completely craters and the whole thing just falls on its face.

But based on stuff like the IGN piece this thread is about and shit, I'm just scared about how effective tactics like this may in fact be and that we probably will end up seeing more of this in the future, and not less. I hope I'm wrong, but seeing how eager people are to eat this game up simply because it's beautiful and bend over backwards to give the creators and particularly the writer the benefit of the doubt simply because of that fact and that they just have to try it regardless makes me fearful that I'm not, and that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

I mean look no further than Huniepop. You have a developer whose very obviously a gamergater and yet people still love to talk about how "the games really a great matching game with interesting story". If badly drawn anime breasts will make people look the other way then generic bladerunner rip off certainly will.

 

[Budi]

No. It's a disingenuous "gotcha" concern trolling tweet.

Yeah, I'm sure his intentions weren't pure there. I mean it's a good thing to bring awareness to, but ofcourse he is using it as something to get back at "SJW:s" and not actually caring about the harassment probably.