-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Are transgendered folk obligated to disclose that information to potential mates?
- Thread starter kinggroin
- Start date
- Status
A trans-woman (or trans-man) should recognize that not everyone thinks of her as a real woman, and therefore should not hide that fact from a potential partner. If a trans-woman were to "forget" to disclose her condition to get me in bed, I would honestly sue her for emotional/psychological damage.
Honestly? I couldn't say Opiate.
My initial reaction is that the idea she was once a man would hang over the relationship and live in the back of my mind, and turn me completely off...
..however, if my wife came to me with information that she was once a man, damn. I don't know. There's so much history and genuine love there to toss away on a technicality...but at least initially, our sex life would be severely affected.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Can anyone define and identify rational justification when it comes to dating and relationships?
Devolution
Member
People in this thread focusing too much on her life prior to becoming a woman. Most of them were more girly than I was growing up and yet people don't care that I was a total tomboy why?
What if you don't want to have kids? If the only issue is the body and you had no idea prior to her telling you...
FrontalMonk
Banned
Assuming you live in the US, you could kill her for not telling you, and get off the hook because she deserved it.
Wait, have those laws changed yet?
I fucking hate my own country sometimes.
scar tissue
Banned
That's legal here? WTF
Vermillion
Banned
So since we have pregnancy here, are we assuming that they are entirely as a natural-born woman? No extra treatments required, etc.?
Also, to some degree, I can understand the people saying that they're not necessarily women (and I'm going to explain why, please take no offense - this is merely a thought as I entertain multiple sides). If someone got a race change to black, for example (still don't know if race is a good example, but), and they identified as black, there would be some people saying that they are not black - they do not share that history, nor do they truly know what it's like. It'd be an anger rooted in culture. People would feel as if a birthright had been stolen somehow.
(Please don't hate me)
FrontalMonk
Banned
GoldenEye 007
Member
No.
the gay panic defense almost never works. I don't think I can remember a case where it had been successful really. Especially in the US I don't believe it HAS ever worked.
Vermillion
Banned
1) Tomboys are awesome
2) Genetics
3) You've never changed aforementioned genetics - no plastic surgery, no sex reassignment, etc.
Now I'm just musing (and I do this a lot, I'm sorry) - if someone were to successfully hypnotize/condition a man to identify as a woman, is that person now a woman?
FrontalMonk
Banned
True but in Gwen Araujo's case it took a long time to get it right.
Still failed, as it should have.
FrontalMonk
Banned
True. Earlier point retracted for being all kinds of dumb and false.
jim-jam bongs
Member
A more appropriate question for the context would be "if someone were to successfully hypnotise/condition a man to identify as female, is that person now female?"
Bay Maximus
Banned
Ok in this particular situation, you say that the person is in love with the transgendered person which would mean that either:
A) The person is fine dating and presumably marrying a transgendered person or
B) The person is unaware of that fact and becomes aware after falling in 'love'.
The former wouldn't make any sense and the latter could rationally reject their partner because he/she feels betrayed or deceived. Reacting to those feelings would be rational.
Also, when did people have to start rationalizing their attraction? We don't even get to choose who we are attracted to, of course we can't logically explain why we are attracted to and comfortable with what we are. Are people who are only attracted to their own race bigots? You could try to make the case but watch out, that's a slippery slope.
Perspicacity
Banned
I don't think you fully understand genetics. There are all sorts of issues that can happen with abnormal chromosomes and it's much more common than you would think. Many of these abnormalities can cause a person to need medical procedures and some people can have them without even knowing it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisomy
Am I to assume that you feel a full genetic history is needed for your partners if your only reasoning is "But genetics...:
Not necessarily.
The mind is essentially (hurr hurr) an essentialist one. We perceive objects, animals, individuals and groups as possessing an "essence" that defines them. An object's essence isn't determined by its appearance, but it's appearance can be altered when we learn something new about its essence.
The meaning of an object, individual or group, and the pleasure that we derive from it is largely driven by its essence. Paul Bloom describes this in his book, How Pleasure Works.
If an art dealer shows me a Picasso, I might think that it is the most beautiful painting I've ever seen. I'm likely to spend a fortune in order to buy it, and will probably hang it in the best spot in my house. If, six months later, somebody then tells me that it's actually a forgery then my perception of the object is likely to change completely.
Even though it's outward characteristics are identical, I might suggest think that it just looks okay. Nothing special. It's appearance is exactly the same, but its essence has changed.
You can apply the same thinking to more complex social identities. I might think of myself wholeheartedly as a Jew, agreeing with Jewish beliefs completely and adhering to Jewish practices meticuluosly. I'd wager that most people would see me then as a Jew... until I tell them that niether of my parents were Jews, and that I converted in my teens.
Then, in the eyes of some, I'm no longer a Jew. I might think, act and dress as a Jewish person, but for some people I'm not really Jewish; I lack the essential ingredients that defines a Jew.
Great artists can cultural groups obviously hold a lot of meaning, but the same essentialist thinking can be seen in very trivial circumstances. In social psychology experiments, minimal groups can be formed on some arbitrary rule like a coin choice and people will still come to attribute some essential qualities to the other groups.
People perceive objects and groups as possessing an internal, invisible, essential quality that determines their belonging to a certain group. Paul Bloom reviews some evidence that young children hold similar views regarding the categories of male and female.
I think that essentialist thinking is a much more likely explanation of why a person may be less attracted to a person if they were recognised as a different sex at birth. In some cases, it may be down to prejudice or fear of social reprieves, but not necessarily. Some people here have said that it would impact a relationship, but haven't been able to explicitly say why, other than it would... somehow. Or that it wouldn't "feel" the same.
In these cases, where a person's response is likely to result from a kind of cognitive reflex, then I don't think it's fair to describe a person as bigoted, or anything else.
Of course, for many people, it won't be an issue. It may not have any impact on how a person views their partner and if it does, then it doesn't have to be a negative one.
I don't think that transgendered people are obligated to tell people about their past anymore so that I'm obligated to tell my boyfriend about my past. On the other hand, although transgendered people don't have to tell their girlfriend/boyfriend about their past, I do think that they should.
If it were me, then I think I would be pretty upset if somebody had kept that from me or felt like they couldn't tell me. Also, I think that it's important in relationships that people feel safe and secure enough to share that level of intimacy with one another. Everybody deserves to find somebody who can love and accept them completely
Amibguous Cad
Member
Your argument is premised on the notion that essentialist thinking and transphobia are mutually exclusive. That premise is wrong. Essentialist thinking is the essence (har har) of transphobia.
You can describe racism in all the psychological, philosophical, or evolutionary ways that you want, and those disciplines certainly can add to the understanding of the phenomenon. But understanding is not exculpatory; an explanation is not an excuse.
Well to respond to that, I'd need a definition of transphobia.
I will say though, that I'm not trying to make excuses for anybody. Nobody needs to excuse themselves for things that they cannot help. Why would I try to make excuses for unconscious cognitive processes?
We're talking about cognitive schema that likely exist outside of conscious awareness, and bias behaviour in ways that the individual may not be aware of.
There are decades of research that demonstrates how most perfectly reasonable people, who do not hold any kind of racist attitudes, will still show preference for members of their own race over members of other races in a number of tasks. The same holds for any condition where others are perceived as members of an outgroup.
These individuals aren't racist though. Racism requires additional beliefs, attitudes, intentions, emotions and behaviours that the individual has some agency over - or is at least conscious of.
I'm not racist, but I think that given the right behavioural task I would probably show preferential behaviour to one race over another. I wouldn't be aware of doing so, and would need to be told by the researcher who carried out the study to tell me that I did it, but I would probably do it.
Essentialism might be necessary for bigotry, but it is by no means sufficient.
I will say though, that I'm not trying to make excuses for anybody. Nobody needs to excuse themselves for things that they cannot help. Why would I try to make excuses for unconscious cognitive processes?
We're talking about cognitive schema that likely exist outside of conscious awareness, and bias behaviour in ways that the individual may not be aware of.
There are decades of research that demonstrates how most perfectly reasonable people, who do not hold any kind of racist attitudes, will still show preference for members of their own race over members of other races in a number of tasks. The same holds for any condition where others are perceived as members of an outgroup.
These individuals aren't racist though. Racism requires additional beliefs, attitudes, intentions, emotions and behaviours that the individual has some agency over - or is at least conscious of.
I'm not racist, but I think that given the right behavioural task I would probably show preferential behaviour to one race over another. I wouldn't be aware of doing so, and would need to be told by the researcher who carried out the study to tell me that I did it, but I would probably do it.
Essentialism might be necessary for bigotry, but it is by no means sufficient.
videogames
Banned
i think it's the duty of society to overcome "natural racism" and not consider it a lost battle
the shit people peddle in this thread
the shit people peddle in this thread
GoldenEye 007
Member
I'm not sure I understand. In the context of dating you suggest people should be rational and logical?
From my experience logic and rationality is on the back burner when it comes to dating/attraction and relationships.
The whole point is that these processes aren't necessarily examples of racism, or any other form of bigotry. In the presence of other thoughts, behaviours or emotions then they might be but it's not a given.
At least try to understand something before you dismiss it as "shit".
At least try to understand something before you dismiss it as "shit".
starchild excalibur
Member
I appreciate the level-headedness of both of your posts HunkyDory. I feel almost exactly the same way.
I find it interesting that a lot of peple in this thread are working at the same time to blur the lines between genders, explaining that those are fluid notions, that some people are born with both (or neither) sets of genitalia, and that you can't fit everyone in little boxes and so on so forth and at the same time insist that you can't make any kind of distinction between a transgendered woman for example and what most people consider a "regular" woman. If the concept that I have of a woman is so broad and ill-defined, am I still not allowed to make distinctions between the different types of women, that I still consider to be women?
I fully accept that transgendered women are women. I still have to say that to me they're not women in the same sense that other women are women. Their womanhood necessarily involves various amounts of rebellion against their born "biological" gender, repression of "male" habits that they necessarily picked up in their former life, complex relationship with their outside persona, and I don't see how their feminity can be anything else than a combination of spontanous feminine instincts (that were probably met with different reactions during their former life as a "physical" male, and evolved accordingly) and some amount of deliberate imitation of what a woman is supposed to be. Basically it seems to me that their feminity is a "struggle". The complexity of the whole thing would be a huge turn off for me personnally, and dating a transgendered woman would force me to question my whole sexuality in so many ways that I get tired just thinking about it.
As for sex, I am terrified of important body-modification procedures. It reminds me of my own mortality in a very disturbing and unpleasant way. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like having sex with a transgendered woman without knowing it (I'd probably get over it though, but wouldn't do it again).
I fully accept that transgendered women are women. I still have to say that to me they're not women in the same sense that other women are women. Their womanhood necessarily involves various amounts of rebellion against their born "biological" gender, repression of "male" habits that they necessarily picked up in their former life, complex relationship with their outside persona, and I don't see how their feminity can be anything else than a combination of spontanous feminine instincts (that were probably met with different reactions during their former life as a "physical" male, and evolved accordingly) and some amount of deliberate imitation of what a woman is supposed to be. Basically it seems to me that their feminity is a "struggle". The complexity of the whole thing would be a huge turn off for me personnally, and dating a transgendered woman would force me to question my whole sexuality in so many ways that I get tired just thinking about it.
As for sex, I am terrified of important body-modification procedures. It reminds me of my own mortality in a very disturbing and unpleasant way. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like having sex with a transgendered woman without knowing it (I'd probably get over it though, but wouldn't do it again).
videogames
Banned
unconscious forms of racism, as if instinctual, are still racist. this shouldn't be accepted as something that can never be overcome.
best post in thread
GoldenEye 007
Member
Racism, sure.
But comparing dating/relationship preferences to racism? Not so sure about that one.
In the way it's being described, people are willing to exclude trans individuals even when attracted to them and can't provide a reason other than that they are trans. That is a trans-phobic reaction.
Vermillion
Banned
Duly noted.
I'm aware. It's the question of genetically male or genetically female, whether it's natural or not, etc.
And no, you don't need a full genetic history (I've responded to this earlier), it is as my previous example - if you trust your wife absolutely and she turns out to be cheating on you, and hiding it well, you wouldn't search to try to find out if she's cheating or not. But it doesnt change your beliefs on cheating in general, does it?
shaowebb
Member
Love is love and the emotion is beautiful. If you both mentally identify them as the gender of preference then whatever. If you feel a connection then its fine. Honesty in a relationship is a must though so its up to the person to decide for themself what they want to do here. Personally I'd imagine they'd have been friends before hooking up for a date so this should likely have come up already.
Whenever it comes up though my standpoint is that if they feel a connection then it doesn't matter what they used to be or might still be under the sheets. Love is love. You feel it for someone then don't run.
Whenever it comes up though my standpoint is that if they feel a connection then it doesn't matter what they used to be or might still be under the sheets. Love is love. You feel it for someone then don't run.
You're assuming a lot in the mid-to-latter part of this post. You can't define every transwoman like that, that does not reflect my experiences at all.
I am not imitating anything, I'm just being myself.
Amibguous Cad
Member
We could haggle over the definitions of transphobia and racism to determine whether such subconscious attitudes are in fact racist or transphobic, but I'm not really interested in that semantic debate. That would just be a proxy war over the normative content of your post, with "racist" and "not racist" standing in for "problematic" and "not problematic." What I am interested in is the normative thrust of your point, which seems to be that:
1.)"[One does not need to] try to make excuses for unconscious cognitive processes,"
2.) "[Racist ideation and essentialist thinking about trans people are] cognitive schema that likely exist outside of conscious awareness"
The only conclusion I can draw from these premises is
3.) One does not need to excuse racist ideation or essentialist thinking about trans people.
And if it needs no excuse, then those things are morally neutral, morally unblameworthy. At least in the case of racism, I think this argument fails spectacularly. From my perspective as a white male, it's certainly progress that I no longer consciously hold racist attitudes; it is, at the very least, a character flaw I have eradicated. I do not believe, however, that the person who is systematically denied opportunities in life by people like me gives two shits about my personal virtue. What matters is, consciously or not, we're denying those opportunities. Justice demands that we treat those of all races equally. If our nature is in fact innately racist, justice demands a struggle against our baser unconscious impulses, as it does in many other fields.
(I'll note that point 2 is significantly less of a slam dunk in the case of the transphobia discussion than in the case of racism. I don't know what essentialist thinking looks like if it's not conscious. Surely it's essentialist because we consciously place an object into some category and consciously ascribe traits to it based on its essence? A person unused to thinking in these terms might not describe it in that way, but the feeling at least is conscious. It's been articulated pretty well by many people in the thread, whereas the numerous non-racists in the thread that would nevertheless show preferential treatment to their own race are incapable of articulating the experience).
Amibguous Cad
Member
EDIT: sorry for the double post, GAF's been in and out and one of the 503 errors must have actually gotten through. Mea culpa
I wanted to quote your whole post because, while I may disagree with much of it I appreciate the thought you're putting into it and that you are struggling with it.
With that, I have to say that the bolded, while you have a right to go down that rabbit hole, and no one can truly tell you how to feel about what is, of course a very personal issue, is fundamentally a cultural construct. That doesn't mean it's wrong, or bad, or that you're a bad person, all I'm saying is that your sexuality, or your impression of your sexuality, exists purely in your mind.
In our society we use terms like gay, straight, bi, etc and they honestly cover a lot but also ignore the fact that it's never so simple. Some people have very specific tastes. Sometimes people have very broad tastes with specific exemptions. Sometimes we want to like someone but we can't. Sometimes we SHOULDN'T like someone but can't help but be drawn to them perhaps because of a particular characteristic.
Again, I'm not trying to tell you how to feel, you feel as you feel and your feelings are not uncommon. But, and this is important to repeat, feeling attraction to someone doesn't change who you are. You're the same person you always would be. To use a very simple example, males who are raped will commonly get an erection, it's just a biological response. Sometimes our bodies don't fit our cultural conditioning and that isn't a bad or a good thing, it's just reality. In this case, should you feel attraction to someone you later find out is trans... what's the problem? It wouldn't make you more attracted to men, and it wouldn't make you less attracted to other women. You saw a woman, you responded. I'm not saying it's easy, but worrying over whether you're gay is just hurting yourself. All that really matters is that you're with someone you like, the label isn't real
If I get intimate with someone, I don't want it to be via some marvel of modern medical science and surgery. I understand that they may feel like something else inside of themselves, and that they can even change themselves until they so closely resemble something else that no one could tell the difference. But I don't want to become physically involved with that situation. I could totally respect someone, and think that they're a great person, but I don't want to get physically intimate with them. And I don't want there to be any withholding of information because to that person "it doesn't matter" because it would matter to me. That's a point of mutual respect. That respect could lead to acceptance, and probably love if you meet the right person.
The bottom line is you became a woman, you weren't born a woman, and some people will not want to become sexually involved with you because of that. Some people will, some people won't care at all, but for those that do, you have to respect it. It doesn't mean they hate you, or they're transphobic. It's personal and it's physical, and if you're going to say they have to consider you a woman or a man when you're trans, and if they wouldn't consider becoming intimate that there's something wrong with them, that's going too far.
Oh I am very much aware of what you're saying about cultural constructs and so forth. The simple fact, though, is that those cultural constructs are now an essential part of my sexuality, and both are now completely interdependant.
The problem I have with questioning my sexuality for the purpose of dating a transgendered woman is not that it would make me more gay and gay people are icky, my problem is with questioning my sexuality in the first place. I am satisfied with the "immediacy" (however fake you might think it is or it actually might be) of my attraction to females. I have no intention whatsoever of complicating this process with philosophical considerations. If I fell in love with a transgendered woman, I might begin this work (yes, it'd be work, and probably a lot of it) of challenging what I consider sexually attracting or arousing and how in this case it happens to be mingled with what I consider not sexually arousing things. In the meantime a more casual form of attraction would be nipped in the bud by the revelation that the person I was attracted to is transgendered.
You being a gay man, and other people in this thread being transsexuals, you guys might be more used to having a more "conscious" way of dealing with attraction (or you might not, I don't know); all I know is that as a straight male, I'd be vary wary of opening that Pandora's box, that is taking such a deliberate approach to what should be attractive to me and what shouldn't.
How in the fuck does it insult anyone? I know plenty of men who are not half the man my father was, they still get to be called men without it being an insult. Same for women. What the fuck is wrong with you?
except that is literally impossible.
If i am going to spend my time with someone and settle down, i intend to have kids. So i rather know it before hand
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Can't trust anyone with an anthro character in their avat-
CHEEZMO;35603133 said:
oh hi
Alligatorjandro
Banned
Some people just aren't attracted to transwomen.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked