Support NeoGAF

[Shepard]

I'm not bailing out of the conversation but I have to sleep, there's already 1AM where I live, and I have to wake up 5AM to work. Will gladly continue my discussion tomorrow.

 

[littleworm]

Statistics work, but tell me, what are those statistics you're basing your opinions on? That's exactly my point, statistics are nothing without a representative group, and you can't sort that group from the threads we have, that are almost a "gather point" for those who didn't like the game, as those who like are not well received.

GAF and the BSN are both acceptable places to poll, they are not limited to those of just one opinion, and from my observations it's mostly negative. Is the charity or retakeme3 an acceptable place to poll? Hell no.

 

[d0c_zaius]

There is no "or else".





DING FUCKIN DING.

That's why it's not a slippery slope argument. That's because the only possible series where this could have happened is Mass Effect.

it happened in a game called shining force 3.

why does this game get singled out from tons of games with crappy endings? or why does the ending get singled out for all of the faults the game has?

 

[inky]

The irony in all this, and I mentioned this just this past weekend, is that people SHOULD be furious over the "From Ashes" DLC. It's a MANDATORY part of the game sold separately. Where is all the righteous indignation and refusal to buy the game based off that? It's because publishers see us as hypocrites who love to bitch but always buy, and are all too happy to nickel and dime us.

Here: www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464045

There's others as well. There's a search function you know.

Edit: You will like it for sure, there's a bunch of people throwing the "entitlement" argument around.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I'll always think of Snooki when I see her.

 

[rozay]

First off, $80,000 to a charity is great no matter the context. I don't really agree with the reasoning behind the donations, but I do agree with the participants methods of garnering attention. Instead of destroying and taking, they are creating and giving. That is admirable.

Second, I think this whole situation would work out a lot better if people learned to respect one another a bit more. It is perfectly okay to hold and opinion. That is your right as a human. It isn't okay to disrespect others who have different opinions.

After initially completing the game, I actually liked the ending. I felt although it was bleak at some points, it ultimately offered hope. I posted this on some forums and instantly had insults thrown at me. Apparently, only idiots could like that ending, and since I liked it I was and idiot.

A while later, once my emotions ran down, the plot holes and broken lore I initially scanned over became more apparent. Since then, I have changed my opinion and I don't care for the ending as much. That does not give me the right to call people who disagree with me idiots. If I wanted to change their opinion I could have a civil conversation about the ending and inform them of why I don't like the game. I cannot do any more than that.

On top of this, I don't think we should personally disrespect the people who made the game. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they did not purposefully anger a very large portion of their fans. Their are other ways to bring their attention to your opinion than making personal attacks over a disagreement.

Then again, this is the internet. I may just be expecting too much.

Gaf is one of the few places I have seen sane discussion from both sides without going deep into "you're an entitled bitch" "you're an idiot" on this issue, which has improved my impression of this place. Probably a good thing too, because with the way the media is treating people who are vocal about disliking the ending, there are a lot of websites I won't be giving any more hits to.

 

[MechaX]

There was a HUGE furor over From Ashes in the weeks leading up to release, especially since people had found indications months earlier that it had been planned alongside the main game for some time. Journalists called people who were upset, "entitled babies," and said that BioWare had a right to make them stacks, because games are services, yo.

And out of that debacle, I found it surreal how it was Adam Sessler out of most of the gaming press of all people that tried to hypothesize an interesting... yet still more civil idea than "you guys are not entitled."

 

[DTKT]

Statistics work, but tell me, what are those statistics you're basing your opinions on? That's exactly my point, statistics are nothing without a representative group, and you can't sort that group from the threads we have, that are almost a "gather point" for those who didn't like the game, as those who like are not well received.

Then, either sides have nothing. I suggest that everyone drops any attempt at drawing conclusions from internet polls and random forums.

 

[sleeprockss]

Wait, do people think I work for IGN?

... kinda neat, I guess.

I'll pretend Destructoid.

Alright, I'll be Giantbomb then.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Which is why I find this entire outcry so hilarious. I don't like the ending of the third game, but it's decent by game story standards and not out of line with the quality of the rest of the games stories. (except for the majority of 3- which was far and away the best the story of the series has been, making this protest seem even more wrongheaded in its focus.)

The first games' story structure is terrible and its ending begins with, need I remind anyone, a gigantic info dump from two static conversations. Never mind trying to leverage the unique strengths of the medium as a storytelling asset, at least bring your presentation up to the shitty Hollywood blockbuster level much of gaming seems to childishly aspire to and remember you're in a visual medium. Fans who love such a poorly told narrative but find the thirds ending repulsive seem delusional to me.

Most importantly, I think all this fuss detracts from the narrative we should be saying as gamers anyway. The bulk of the discussion about a game should not be about its story, (until the medium matures substantially at least) barring the rare exception, and if you insist on discussing the weakest element of the medium, you should at least discuss it in the context of its entirety rather than focusing on what is literally a few minutes of video. Such a protest communicates misguided priorities. Finally, even though I'm no big fan of the ending myself, the idea of paying a creator to undo their creation and pander (I realize the irony given the company in question) is such a terrible principle that I could not support it even if I thoroughly despised the ending.

(I will note that I have no problems with criticism in general; I just feel the ME3 discussion is way off course, in its priorities and consideration of the rest of the series.)

Alright, but you should keep in mind that the jump in presentation and writing is not just a result of the passage of time and -obviously- the input of EA resources, but also of fan feedback and their continued investment into the fiction, the world of the games (EatChildren's collection for instance) and the games themselves.

Even if we say that the original was 'terrible' (I obviously do not agree with that statement), then there is still no particular reason why we have to accept that the ending, and only the ending (!!) would be just a low in quality almost eight years (or even nine years) after the original idea of ME1 was brought forward and production started. This isn't Duke Nukem Forever we are talking about. This game was never in development limbo and has been fully able to profit from everything that changed since its moment of inception, which arguably, would have been almost a decade ago.

The other part, which I've already mentioned, is that is only the ending that completely contradicts everything that went before, including the writing within ME3 itself! The comment given by one of the writers on the smaller pieces that the ending was hogged exclusively by the project leads, means that they effectively broke their own production process. The ending that was produced is NOT the artistic vision of the Mass Effect 3 team, or even of the various people who have worked on this game for all this time.
It is not just insulting to the player, but also to everyone who has made personal sacrifices over the years to make this project work.

It reeks of 'wrong' on every possible level, and you should (imo) support the change of the entire ME3 team to get even and create the ending THEY would have wanted to make. And the one that WE would have wanted to actually get instead of the *long beep* that is the actual ending.

If all of them choose not to, perhaps preferring to simply except their losses and move on (or out) of the company, then I for one wish them the best of luck in their future endeavors. Because everything before the ending is well written (for game story expectations), except the ending itself.

 

[rozay]

I'm pretty curious to know if the people who defended the decision to make Javik DLC (lumpofcole, hp_wuvcraft off the top of my head) still feel the same way about it considering that the character was more fleshed out than the squadmates the game comes with and without him the squad selection in game is pretty meager.

 

[hatchx]

You really had to have been here to feel the kick in the balls. 5 years of world and character building, most of it relying on player choice. One of the most immersive game universes ever, and the way they end it is such a massive bitch slap to its fans. That's why this is happening now.

Star Wars says hello.


It's a bitch slap for sure, but going back and changing an ending is ludicrous. Simply don't buy any more of their products or they should fire their writers, but changing it won't really change anything. They shouldn't let their fans dictate them like this. They should just learn from it and move on.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

GAF and the BSN are both acceptable places to poll, they are not limited to those of just one opinion, and from my observations it's mostly negative. Is the charity or retakeme3 an acceptable place to poll? Hell no.

BSN is a horrible place to try to find any sort of non-crazy opinion.

Alright, I'll be Giantbomb then.

I don't know enough about GB to really try to take that mantle.

Wait. Shit.

I change mine to The Escapist.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Yeah, the whole "From Ashes" thing is in interesting counterpoint to all this, because essentially they compromised something intended to be in the original game in order to get the game out on time and to make more money.

That's way worse than requesting something in a game be changed for no other reason than you didn't like it.

 

[Cagey]

Wait, do people think I work for IGN?

... kinda neat, I guess.

I'll pretend Destructoid.

Huh? No. I was referencing how the meme started with gaming journalists penning instant blog posts on the ME3 controversy that explicitly called their own audience entitled whiny babies. It's now picked up a life of its' own.

 

[John Harker]

I'm only 10 hours Into me3 but after all this, I no longer care how the game ends... I must want bioware to ignore all this annoying noise and carry on with their lives. They made a game, ended it how they saw it ending, and I hope they stick to their guns and don't pander to the noise of some loud Internet kids. What a horrible precedent to set ugh, can you imagine creatives changing their vision caused of FORUMS? I fear the future, imagine LOST ending by Online committee? Please nip this in the bid (tho they'll likely see demand as $$$ and capitaliz on an exPanded universe dlc now)

 

[littleworm]

BSN is a horrible place to try to find any sort of non-crazy opinion.

They might be a little over the top, but from a polling standpoint it's valid, people from both sides are allowed to go there and post.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Star Wars says hello.


It's a bitch slap for sure, but going back and changing an ending is ludicrous. Simply don't buy any more of their products or they should fire their writers, but changing it won't really change anything. They shouldn't let their fans dictate them like this. They should just learn from it and move on.

Why even compare this to Star Wars?

 

[Shepard]

GAF and the BSN are both acceptable places to poll, they are not limited to those of just one opinion, and from my observations it's mostly negative. Is the charity or retakeme3 an acceptable place to poll? Hell no.

That brings us back to make first point: no matter what I say to you, no matter how many previous evidences we have (wii is a sucess? 3DS flopped in the beginning? Lots of our most loved games sell poorly? developers changing games in the direction we don't want? franchises we shit on, like CoD, Just Dance, Wii Shovelware..) are actually what are sustaining the industry? I can keep going on and on and, no matter what, you'll still think lots of rambling internet fans are the majority of the consumers. Well, I rest my case, but still disagree with lots of what you're defending.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I'm only 10 hours Into me3 but after all this, I no longer care how the game ends... I must want bioware to ignore all this annoying noise and carry on with their lives. They made a game, ended it how they saw it ending, and I hope they stick to their guns and don't pander to the noise of some loud Internet kids. What a horrible precedent to set ugh, can you imagine creatives changing their vision caused of FORUMS? I fear the future, imagine LOST ending by Online committee? Please nip this in the bid (tho they'll likely see demand as $$$ and capitaliz on an exPanded universe dlc now)

You say that now...

 

[RDreamer]

They might be a little over the top, but from a polling standpoint it's valid, people from both sides are allowed to go there and post.

Allowed to, sure, but from a polling standpoint it's an absolutely horrible place to solely pull from. You need a random sampling of all fans of all types. Those that take the time both to register and then to converse at the developer's forum is only one type of customer.

 

[Replicant]

Statistics work, but tell me, what are those statistics you're basing your opinions on? That's exactly my point, statistics are nothing without a representative group, and you can't sort that group from the threads we have, that are almost a "gather point" for those who didn't like the game, as those who like are not well received.

Ridiculous options for sure but it sure tells you where the majority of the opinion lies (basically, "The ending sucks, we want something different"). I mean, 60,000+ votes is not a small number by any means.

 

[littleworm]

That brings us back to make first point: no matter what I say to you, no matter how many previous evidences we have (wii is a sucess? 3DS flopped in the beginning? Lots of our most loved games sell poorly? developers changing games in the direction we don't want? franchises we shit on, like CoD, Just Dance, Wii Shovelware..) are actually what are sustaining the industry? I can keep going on and on and, no matter what, you'll still think lots of rambling internet fans are the majority of the consumers. Well, I rest my case, but still disagree with lots of what you're defending.

Your comparing two different things, popular opinion and commercial success are not that same.

 

[DTKT]

it happened in a game called shining force 3.

why does this game get singled out from tons of games with crappy endings? or why does the ending get singled out for all of the faults the game has?

Because it's the ending. Because it's end of a trilogy that I have immersed myself into.

It's not being singled out because everyone is ignoring other issues or because they don't care about them. It's because it's actually really important. It was supposed to wrap the series up.

It's goal was to provide a satisfying conclusion to a 5 year adventure.

It fails at in every way possible to provide closure.

And I have no clue about Shining Force. I don't even know what it is. But, wild guess, two widly different markets. But that's just an uneducated guess from someone who doesn't know anything about the Japanese game industry.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

They might be a little over the top, but from a polling standpoint it's valid, people from both sides are allowed to go there and post.

Well, you get insta-banned for insulting other members and devs now, so I expect the sides to tip. Both sides of the BSN are very.... ahem... "vocal".

 

[AColdDay]

You'll need to set them lower.

No, lower.



...Keep going.

I had tempered expectations going in, and the disappointment didn't immediately hit me. I felt totally underwhelmed and confused initially. I just figured I got a crappy ending. It was only after I saw the other endings that I felt the full force of disappointment.

 

[lightus]

Gaf is one of the few places I have seen sane discussion from both sides without going deep into "you're an entitled bitch" "you're an idiot" on this issue, which has improved my impression of this place. Probably a good thing too, because with the way the media is treating people who are vocal about disliking the ending, there are a lot of websites I won't be giving any more hits to.

It gets pretty heated here too, but not so much in direct name calling thankfully. I used to go on Kotaku a lot because some of their articles are pretty decent. They are really pushing me away here lately. Not only are the articles questionable, but the comments are horrendous. Say one thing against popular opinion and you have ten replies calling you stupid etc.

Some other websites are about as bad. I normally won't discuss the ending anywhere but off-topic sections of non-gaming forums now. The user base there tends to not get as heated over the topic as video games normally aren't their prime interest.

 

[hatchx]

Why even compare this to Star Wars?

Because the person I quoted talked about shitting on fans/franchise etc.

I'd say Star Wars had a good thing going up until the 90's. The original trilogy, the books, the games, the lore, was all fantastic and a lot of people were heavily involved.

The new trilogy not only introduced a series of gaping plot holes, but dumbed down and stained the franchise.


Is that not a bit similar to the way people feel about the ending of ME3?

 

[littleworm]

Allowed to, sure, but from a polling standpoint it's an absolutely horrible place to solely pull from. You need a random sampling of all fans of all types. Those that take the time both to register and then to converse at the developer's forum is only one type of customer.

True, but we cant extrapolate results from those who don't make their opinion heard.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I had tempered expectations going in, and the disappointment didn't immediately hit me. I felt totally underwhelmed and confused initially. I just figured I got a crappy ending. It was only after I saw the other endings that I felt the full force of disappointment.

Welcome, why don't you come get a hug in the spoiler (Group Support) thread.

 

[obonicus]

Fans who paid $60 (and over three games, $200+) declaring your product great but possessing an unimaginably terrible, serious flaw? Just whiners.

Reviewers who receive perks from your parent company declaring your product flawless? Objective, unbiased evaluators.

There's a huge excluded middle there. There are players who liked the ending, and who also paid '$200+' for it and don't support this endeavor. There are people like me, who thought the ending was bad (but not nearly as bad as that stupid google document makes it out to be) but who don't support this endeavor. Don't think for a moment that when you speak you speak for the entire fanbase.

It's fine to complain about an ending, and even to write angry letters (or tweets, I guess) to Bioware expecting a different ending. It's up to Bioware whether they listen or not. There are, however, people in this very thread who make the claim that by being a consumer you have the right to demand changes. That's where claims of entitlement come from. No one gave these people that right, they're claiming it for themselves.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Psssh, 60k votes are nothing guys.

silent majority is always right, anytime there's a bunch of people complaining about something on the internet, the rest of the universe has the complete opposite opinion and chooses to be silent.

Silent Majority Opinion #1: Godfather 3 is the best Godfather.

 

[DTKT]

Because the person I quoted talked about shitting on fans/franchise etc.

I'd say Star Wars had a good thing going up until the 90's. The original trilogy, the books, the games, the lore, was all fantastic and a lot of people were heavily involved.

The new trilogy not only introduced a series of gaping plot holes, but dumbed down and stained the franchise.


Is that not a bit similar to the way people feel about the ending of ME3?

No. :|

Dumbed down is a whole other argument. The ending just sucks. It's a bad ending. It provides no closure since it just creates so many questions. Questions that will never be answered since Bioware is done with Shepard.

There's a huge excluded middle there. There are players who liked the ending, and who also paid '$200+' for it and don't support this endeavor. There are people like me, who thought the ending was bad (but not nearly as bad as that stupid google document makes it out to be) but who don't support this endeavor. Don't think for a moment that when you speak you speak for the entire fanbase.

It's fine to complain about an ending, and even to write angry letters (or tweets, I guess) to Bioware expecting a different ending. It's up to Bioware whether they listen or not. There are, however, people in this very thread who make the claim that by being a consumer you have the right to demand changes. That's where claims of entitlement come from. No one gave these people that right, they're claiming it for themselves.

They have the right to a certain level of quality. That's what you expect in a product. The ME3 ending does not meet that "standard" so people are reacting in a negative way.

They are not entitled to anything. It doesn't have to be free but the flaw has to be pointed out.

 

[Shepard]

Your comparing two different things, popular opinion and commercial success are not that same.

Yet it still shows how much different the "concensual" forum idea can be from the real thing. Besides, I hate when I do this, got lost in an argument that wasn't my main point: no matter how much people you get to your "cause"(lack of a better word), asking the developer to do such a drastic change based only on personal preferences is something I really can't comprehend.

 

[HK-47]

Psssh, 60k votes are nothing guys.

silent majority is always right, anytime there's a bunch of people complaining about something on the internet, the rest of the universe has the complete opposite opinion and chooses to be silent.

Silent Majority Opinion #1: Godfather 3 is the best Godfather.

Godchild 3

 

[Effect]

The customer is ALWAYS right.

*awaits backlash to this post*

I do hope this is gamers taking that to heart. These companies aren't your friends. Stop being taken advantage of. They are selling a product. If you aren't satisfied with it, you should be able to voice your displeasure or even demand changes or a refund like all other products. Especially when said product has been advertised one way (your choice matters, will influence the next game in the series and ending) and it simply (from what I'm understanding) doesn't. It's not what was promised or advertise. People should speak up. The gaming industry gets away with a lot of shit that wouldn't fly in other industries. That needs to stop.

The negative reaction from the gaming sites I think was explained earlier. They are protecting the scores and overall praise they gave the game. If vocal group gets more attention with their displeasure of the game/product it calls those scores and praise into question. It shines an unwelcome light on how the gaming media (especially the large sites) actually conducts themselves. Which is actually quite poorly, non-objective, and filled with conflicts of interest.

Now if people want send a stronger message in the end they just have to do one thing. Do not buy Bioware's next game. No matter what it is. Speak with your wallet. That's the only thing they care about in the end.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Godchild 3

"I'm gonna give him 3 choices he can't refuse"

 

[RDreamer]

True, but we cant extrapolate results from those who don't make their opinion heard.

But you can't call those results conclusive. If any political polling place took their results solely from, say a politician's Facebook page they'd be goddamned nuts. They'd be laughed away. There are an astounding amount of fans who do not care one bit to go onto forums and talk about their games there. They just play the stuff. There are fans who don't mind going onto some forums, but might stay the hell away from some place like BSN purposefully. There are people that don't even know about that place, too.

 

[littleworm]

Yet it still shows how much different the "concensual" forum idea can be from the real thing. Besides, I hate when I do this, got lost in an argument that wasn't my main point: no matter how much people you get to your "cause"(lack of a better word), asking the developer to do such a drastic change based only on personal preferences is something I really can't comprehend.

Well, you ignored me when debating your main point and now we are here. Like I said GAF speculating if the Wii will be a success has nothing to do with polling.

 

[obonicus]

silent majority is always right, anytime there's a bunch of people complaining about something on the internet, the rest of the universe has the complete opposite opinion and chooses to be silent.

That's a pretty dumb strawman. I mean, it's clearly not true, necessarily, but are you trying to infer that the opposite it thus somehow true? Because that's not a statement that can be made, either.

 

[Cagey]

There's a huge excluded middle there. There are players who liked the ending, and who also paid '$200+' for it and don't support this endeavor. There are people like me, who thought the ending was bad (but not nearly as bad as that stupid google document makes it out to be) but who don't support this endeavor. Don't think for a moment that when you speak you speak for the entire fanbase.

It's fine to complain about an ending, and even to write angry letters (or tweets, I guess) to Bioware expecting a different ending. It's up to Bioware whether they listen or not. There are, however, people in this very thread who make the claim that by being a consumer you have the right to demand changes. That's where claims of entitlement come from. No one gave these people that right, they're claiming it for themselves.

#1. "Don't think that you speak for the entire fanbase". You read that into my post. I made no such statement, nor did I even allude or imply it.

#2. People need to seriously read up on what words mean. No "right" to complain? What "right" are we talking about? A legal right to complain and demand changes? Well, I certainly have one there. A "moral" or "ethical" right, i.e. am I justified in making this complaint? I spent money, I am therefore justified in making complaints about the product I purchased. You seriously believe I have no "right" to demand a better ending?

I have no right to be guaranteed a better ending, but I most certainly have the right to want one and to vocalize it.

 

[littleworm]

But you can't call those results conclusive. If any political polling place took their results solely from, say a politician's Facebook page they'd be goddamned nuts. They'd be laughed away. There are an astounding amount of fans who do not care one bit to go onto forums and talk about their games there. They just play the stuff. There are fans who don't mind going onto some forums, but might stay the hell away from some place like BSN purposefully. There are people that don't even know about that place, too.

True, using a politicians Facebook page would be horrible, but GAF isn't a Mass Effect 3 haters page. Like I said polling those who donated or using the Retakeme3 facebook page would be inaccurate.

 

[Busaiku]

This is not a bad thing.

 

[Shepard]

Well, you ignored me when debating your main point and now we are here. Like I said GAF speculating if the Wii will be a success has nothing to do with polling.

Yet it still shows how different the forum concensus can be from the real thing. Also, don't take this forum's polls too seriously: you don't make an elections survey in a protest where everyone is criticizing Obama, you might get your results altered.

 

[DTKT]

We need a neutral internet ground for neutral polls.

That would be great.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Falllout's ending was pathetic, even for Bethesda, and demanded revision.

I'm not sure BioWare's horrible conclusion is wrong on the same level. Especially since the ending is preceded by a perfectly acceptable end point.

Fallout 3 broke down due to a gameplay feature which uses lore that directly contradicted the ending.

The ending to ME3 contradicts with lore, features and even actual gameplay, as it's just "there". It's a complete afterthought to an otherwise awesome conclusion.
Personally, I find the second thing to be much more offensive than the first, despite never actually getting to the ending of Fallout 3 because my PS3 wouldn't let me.

 

[littleworm]

Yet it still shows how different the forum concensus can be from the real thing. Also, don't take this forum's polls too seriously: you don't make an elections survey in a protest where everyone is criticizing Obama, you might get your results altered.

Of course, but neither GAF nor the BSN are places that garner just one opinion, and exclude the others.

 

[RDreamer]

True, using a politicians Facebook page would be horrible, but GAF isn't a Mass Effect 3 haters page. Like I said polling those who donated or using the Retakeme3 facebook page would be inaccurate.

Coulda fooled me

Nah, I get what you're saying, but at the same time even if you included every person that's on the internet vocalizing something about this that wouldn't really be an accurate assessment of the collective opinion. There are plenty of people that don't follow gaming on the internet, but play it enough on their own. There are people that might follow it but really don't care enough to vocalize their opinion. There might be those fearful of vocalizing how they feel, because of the hive mind that places like these tend to devolve into.

 

[Shepard]

Of course, but neither GAF nor the BSN are places that garner just one opinion, and exclude the others.

The thing is, this threads do tend to gather people wih the same opinion, that's what I'm trying to say to you. And sorry, I don't know what BSN is.

 

[Cagey]

But you can't call those results conclusive. If any political polling place took their results solely from, say a politician's Facebook page they'd be goddamned nuts. They'd be laughed away. There are an astounding amount of fans who do not care one bit to go onto forums and talk about their games there. They just play the stuff. There are fans who don't mind going onto some forums, but might stay the hell away from some place like BSN purposefully. There are people that don't even know about that place, too.

The value in the BSN poll is not in divining any real knowledge of the larger purchasing base's attitudes towards the game, and it's certainly not to determine percentage splits within that base.

Instead, it comes from the fact that the forum is supposed to be a gigantic lovefest from the company's biggest fanbois, cheerleaders, devotees, etc.

When that group so violently and overwhelmingly (90%?!) turns against you, it's an enormous red flag.