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[subversus]

I'll start a thread to get all info/interviews in one place. New threads for new news obviously but sometimes an interview or news piece is too small to warrant a thread but interesting enough for people to notice.

I'll update the first post with info and other stuff.

E3 '12 GAMEPLAY TRAILER

What is it?
It's an immersive sim developed by one of the creators of Deus Ex and Arkane Studios (Arx Fatalis, Dark Messiah of Might & Magic).

What is an immersive sim?

Influential sub-genre established by Looking Glass Studios in which the player is free to act as they choose in a richly simulated world, often associated with action-RPGs. The term was coined by Warren Spector in his Deus Ex post-mortem.

Notable games in the "genre":
Deus Ex
Thief
Shock series (System Shock - Bioshock)

The story:
You used to be a bodyguard of the Empress until somebody killed her and framed you as a killer. Now you are on the path of revenge and restoring your good name. You have become an assassin armed with magic powers, gadgets and plain weapons. You need to find those who framed you and make them pay.


Release date:
2012

Publisher:
Zenimax Media

Developer:
Arkane Studios


videos:
Dev Diary #1 (gameplay)
Debut trailer (CG)
E3 Walkthrough


Interviews:
Sneaky Bastards interview - on stealth
Arkane’s Harvey & Raf Unravel Dishonored - Rock, Paper, Shotgun interview on game's core mechanics and design philosophy
Modeling morality, part 1 (video)
Modeling morality, part 2 (video)
Sneaky Bastards unterview - on stealth and how it relates to Thief (more detailed)

so, for those who didn't want to watch:

-you will be able to kill anyone in the game.
-you will be able to spare your victims if you really want to for some reason
-the game will focus on mechanics, i.e. it's still primarily "a game", you will be able to fuck around a lot.
-there will be a hub ("homebase")
-you will be notified when your actions add more "chaos" in the world, but there won't be any meter like in Mass Effect games. They want to avoid binary morality system.
-your actions will result in different endings and different attitude towards you. Like some people may betray you later in the game if they consider you a sick fuck
-morality system won't reward you with loot of any kind. Like if you sow the chaos everywhere nobody will give you "boots of evil" with +4 to strength.

previews:
RPS

http://dishonored.tumblr.com/


Relevant info:

PC version getting its own UI


A look at PC UI
screens:

52 screens in high-res

 

[subversus]

Raphael Colantonio and Harvey Smith were interviewed by the Sneaky Bastards blog (the blog specialises on stealth gaming in all forms):

Sneaky Bastards: What is it that attracts you to stealth gameplay?

Raf: The great thing about stealth gameplay is the feeling of being somewhere I’m not allowed to be. The excitement that arises from the fear of getting caught, feeling like a predator. All of these things are emotions that we all felt as kids, playing hide and seek, or sneaking in the ‘forbidden’ room of the house.

Harvey: Yes, totally. And in games, there’s something satisfying about the tension that comes from toying with imperfect AI awareness, knowing that a stressful moment can turn violent. I’ve heard some of the guys who worked on Thief say, “surfing the edges of the AI’s awareness,” and “sublime tension.” Both are great ways of summing up the experience of playing those games, which are among some of our favorites.

Raf: Also, we both really love eavesdropping on characters in the world, gathering little bits of color.

What would a way forward for stealth gameplay be?

Raf: For one, better player perception/awareness of his environment/state. So far, in first-person or third-person stealth games, there is often an ambiguity when it comes to “Am I hidden right now? Can I be heard?” So we often rely on UI like stealth gems, NPC emoticons, etc, as a means of conveying that feedback. It would be great to only rely exclusively on NPC behaviors and environmental affordance, but that would require a crazy high level of fidelity before we could get away with these things without using UI.

Harvey: I’m an optimist. I think it just comes down to lots of teams iterating on various approaches. Right now we see a few realistically-presented, immersive attempts at allowing for sneaking every few years, and occasionally we see some more abstract arcade-style ‘avoid detection’ games, but it would be cool if more people were trying different things; something more modal might be interesting, too, alternating between the two approaches. Seeing more teams escape the military/soldier fiction and still work on stealth mechanics would be interesting. Aside from Dishonored or any of the other stealth-oriented games coming, look at indie games like Monaco or Spy Party, both of which play with perception, timing and subterfuge in very different ways. Imagine if you hosted some kind of stealth game jam, offset by 6 months with the current game jam. Imagine what people might do with that as a focus.

 

[Traumnovelle]

More people should be hyped for this game. Arkane's past two games were great, Harvey Smith is a very intelligent designer (his past two games were duds, but it wasn't really his fault), and Viktor Antonov's art. This seems like the true successor to Thief.

 

[subversus]

More people should be hyped for this game. Arkane's past two games were great, Harvey Smith is a very intelligent designer (his past two games were duds, but it wasn't really his fault)

do you mean his iphone games? they had great reviews.

damn, I actually can buy one, it sounded interesting.

 

[Wiktor]

The best thing I saw at last year's gamescom. Inane potential.

 

[subversus]

The best thing I saw at last year's gamescom. Inane potential.

you actually SAW it?

can you share some impressions?

 

[Sotha Sil]

I have a lot of faith in Arcane, so... fingers crossed.

 

[Wiktor]

you actually SAW it?

can you share some impressions?

Yeah, went to Arkane's presentation.

Impressions? Well, in bullet point format:

-the world is based on simulation, not scripts. Comparing to other game of this type: Deus EX: HR..it offered you choices, but in reality it wasn't o much freedom, as three-four linear paths. Here everything is simulated and based on AI. Designers don't program specific solutions in, instead just give you ton of tools and then let you run wild with it.

- great combat engine. THe enemies know hot to parry and hit, so killing one is hard enough without using superpowers, but still doable even against toughest foe, because you've got an andrenaline meters that fills up both when you strike successfully, as well as when you succeed in parrying and once it fills you can do really brutal finish move that bypasses most defenses.

-possessing rats = godly

-the game feels Thief-like in design. In that every mission is self containted sandbox and it's up to you to figure how to get it. Only that Corvo murders instead of stealing and has superpowers.

Also, amazing art vision. Screens make the game look far worse than it does in person. There's this kind of light painted look on it that fits it really well, as well as propably the best videogame representation of steampunk. Especially loved the big legged guards, from afar they look like big robots, somewhay like Striders from HL2, but once you get cloe you realise it's just one guy on top of it with energy bow

I also asked if they will get Stephen Russell (voice of Thief's Garret) to do some work and they said they will sure as hell try

 

[robin2]

Don't want to sound polemical but I think Bioshock isn't an immersive sim, by the very definition you quote, at all.

 

[Lancehead]

I'm mildly curious about this game. The use of word "immersive" means I have pretty high standards I expect the game to meet.

 

[Scanna]

my most anticipated game of 2012 after gamescom. i love the art style and it seems to resemble a couple of games i adored (half-life 2, bioshock)

 

[subversus]

-the world is based on simulation, not scripts. Comparing to other game of this type: Deus EX: HR..it offered you choices, but in reality it wasn't o much freedom, as three-four linear paths. Here everything is simulated and based on AI. Designers don't program specific solutions in, instead just give you ton of tools and then let you run wild with it.

- great combat engine. THe enemies know hot to parry and hit, so killing one is hard enough without using superpowers, but still doable even against toughest foe, because you've got an andrenaline meters that fills up both when you strike successfully, as well as when you succeed in parrying and once it fills you can do really brutal finish move that bypasses most defenses.

oh my oh my

sounds lawesome. Simulation + Dark Messiah combat = a dream game, multiple playthroughs over years.

I intentionally put DX:HR in "close" section in OP because it's not a simulation, it's a game with multiple solutions which can be put together in a number of different ways, i.e. it works more like Bloodlines than Deus Ex.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

I'm expecting either a cancellation or the game to get marred somewhat during its development cycle. I'd really love to be proven wrong though.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I'm incredibly hyped for this game; love everything from the premise, described gameplay and the art style.

 

[subversus]

Don't want to sound polemical but I think Bioshock isn't an immersive sim, by the very definition you quote, at all.

System Shock 2 too then? Because the base is the same - there are not many scripted situations but you have an environment and tools to get around.

 

[Pranay]

Looks Interesting, looking forward for it.

 

[chickdigger802]

Sounds like a jet li movie.

 

[robin2]

i love the art style and it seems to resemble a couple of games i adored (half-life 2)

The artist in charge is the same of half life 2, Viktor Antonov.

 

[SafeinSound]

This game is definitely on my radar. Hopefully it's at E3

 

[Scanna]

The artist in charge is the same of half life 2, Viktor Antonov.

yeah yeah i know, freakin' genius

 

[zkylon]

I'm mildly curious about this game. The use of word "immersive" means I have pretty high standards I expect the game to meet.

Immersive Sim is the title Warren Spector gave to Deus Ex-like games, which I guess could be described as linear, story-based, simulation-heavy (AI, physics) sandbox games with RPG elements.

So don't think that the word immersive holds the same meaning that when used in the context of Amnesia or STALKER.

 

[subversus]

Immersive Sim is the title Warren Spector gave to Deus Ex-like games, which I guess could be described as linear, story-based, simulation-heavy (AI, physics) sandbox games with RPG elements.

while he didn't mention it I think first-person view is mandatory.

 

[robin2]

System Shock 2 too then? Because the base is the same - there are not many scripted situations but you have an environment and tools to get around.

Yeah I can't find info on the systems.. but still I think Bioshock plays like a shooter, while System Shock 2 doesn't.
For example environmental interaction is very limited and set-pieced in the former, and your tools are more like an arsenal than anything else; also the escort-the-girl part was pure fps gameplay.

 

[Derrick01]

After Prey 2 likely being dead, this is my only hope for 2012.

 

[Meccanical]

Highly anticipating this game, but I wonder when it will see the light of day.

 

[Soule]

hahaha oh man I thought this thread was going to be about devs going back on what they said they'd do in interviews and stuff. thought the title sounded a bit dramatic, whoops.

this is pleasantly surprising though, sounds cool.

 

[Lancehead]

Immersive Sim is the title Warren Spector gave to Deus Ex-like games, which I guess could be described as linear, story-based, simulation-heavy (AI, physics) sandbox games with RPG elements.

So don't think that the word immersive holds the same meaning that when used in the context of Amnesia or STALKER.

I was looking more towards Thief 2 and Shock 2. Still, immersion can be defined independent of the type of game. Because it's mostly about environment.

while he didn't mention it I think first-person view is mandatory.

In addition, there should be very little, if any, soundtrack.

 

[Surface of Me]

Love the sound of it and the art direction. It it isn't out by August hopefully there will be a playable demo at Quakecon.

 

[Dog Problems]

Is stealth the only way to play? Or just a way to go about situations?

 

[Meccanical]

Is stealth the only way to play? Or just a way to go about situations?

Just one of the many ways to go about things.

Though in these kind of games, stealth is always the most fun.

 

[Zeliard]

This game will be amazing. It would be hard to fuck this one up.

 

[Dog Problems]

Just one of the many ways to go about things.

Though in these kind of games, stealth is always the most fun.

Ah, good. I've always been terrible with stealth-based gameplay but I do attempt it.

 

[subversus]

Yeah I can't find info on the systems.. but still I think Bioshock plays like a shooter, while System Shock 2 doesn't.
For example environmental interaction is very limited and set-pieced in the former, and your tools are more like an arsenal than anything else; also the escort-the-girl part was pure fps gameplay.

but Thief is even more limited then. - probably not. I talked about general principles. The environment in Bioshock is AI and some environmental hazards. Same goes for System Shock. AI respawns, explores the level and it's totally not scripted. There are also security systems which consitute an environment too. You can use the environment to your advantage - hack security cameras, setup traps, make AI kill each other and so on. For example I found a Big Daddy on the other side of Fort Frolic, fed him little sister's hormones and made him fight a boss for me (he won btw). When I think about scripted situations in Bioshock I think about gameplay situations like taking stuff from the bee hives or melt down frozen statues to find your enemies and so on.

Thief's environment is built in the same way. Even though AI has its predeterming paths it can explore the environment if it needs to. Like zombies in Boneyard for example. Also you have a number of tools which allow you to use environment to your advantage, i.e. sneak and reach your goal.

Deus Ex: HR and Bloodlines are different because most times they have predetermined solutions for each situation.

 

[Messofanego]

So STALKER is not an immersive sim?

 

[robin2]

but Thief is even more limited then. I talked about general principles. The environment in Bioshock is AI. Same goes for System Shock. AI respawns, explores the level and it's totally not scripted. There are also security systems which consitute an environment too. You can use the environment to your advantage - hack security cameras, setup traps, make AI kill each other and so on. For example I found a Big Daddy on the other side of Fort Frolic, fed him little sister's hormones and made him fight a boss for me (he won btw). When I think about scripted situations in Bioshock I think about gameplay situations like taking stuff from the bee hives or melt down frozen statues to find your enemies and so on.

Thief's environment is built in the same way. Even though AI has its predeterming paths it can explore the environment if it needs to. Like zombies in Boneyard for example. Also you have a number of tools which allow you to use environment to your advantage, i.e. sneak and reach your goal.

Deus Ex and Bloodlines are different because most times they have predetermined solutions for each situation.

Then what about Crysis 1? (again not polemical but open discussion) It has interaction (and believable physics), emergent gameplay, and the AI was not "scripted" if I remember correctly.
Can we classify Crysis as an immersive sim? I classify Crysis as a fps, because even if there are sim-systems, the resolution of the challenge doesn't happen through them.

 

[subversus]

So STALKER is not an immersive sim?

Then what about Crysis 1? (again not polemical but open discussion) It has interaction (and believable physics), emergent gameplay, and the AI was not scripted if I remember correctly.
Can we classify Crysis an immersive sim? I classify Crysis as a fps, because even if there are sim-systems, the resolution of the challenge doesn't happen through them.

I agree with this. But you can't complete System Shock without shooting too as far as I know. I'm too sleepy now to discuss this but what immersive sim should have - it should have a)non-scripted highly interactive environment b)multiple ways of solving gameplay objectives - hack, talk, sneak, use environment against itself and so on and this should be viable throughout MOST parts of the game.

I included this description in OP just to show what type of game Dishonored is, what it is like. The genre and its definition isn't so important and may be I will change it tommorow for accuracy.

 

[Zeliard]

There's also the RPS interview from August if you guys never read it:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/22/dishonored-interview/

Few excerpts:

RPS: The rats are an unusual motif: you’re kind of subverting something that games usually treat as throwaway enemies. Was that something you planned on?

Harvey Smith: No, it’s very organic actually. We started making the game, and the plague is a very bad thing in the game – it killed half the population, it’s tied to the story – and at some point we said ‘what can we do to symbolise the plague?’ There’s piles of dead bodies and some of the buildings on the lower floor are painted white with a big red X on them, they’re sealed off, and then our art director said ‘what if we multiply the number of rats?’ And we said ‘okay, that’s cool, it’s creepy.’ And then Raf and I look at it and say ‘what gameplay can we get out of the rats?’

We started negotiating with the lead programmer and the producer: ‘we’d like to be able to possess them’ and all this. At first people are like ‘well, these can’t all be AIs, right?’ but we’re ‘yeah, they all need to be AIs. We know we’re going to have to compromise here and there, and we’re going to have to some stuff swarms and streams of rats, but I need to be able to kill any individual rat, I need to be able to separate any individual rat out from the herd, I need to be able to possess them.’ We never would do something like a fake stream of rats running across the streets, because I need to be able to run down there and possess one of them.

So the team, all of us, had to be reminded constantly about what our goal was – to over-connect the systems, the rules and the mechanics. That’s the first time in a long time – the first time since Deus Ex 1 – that I’ve been in an environment where developer was fully aligned around the gameplay goal, publisher was fully supportive of it and all the pieces are there. It feels very gratifying, actually. Because it’s so often a struggle to convince people.

What Raf always says that I love, it’s language I’ve stolen from him, is the invisible values. So let’s say you have a game, there’s a building, and it’s a huge building, and there’s a guard patrolling in a big circle around it. What most games would do is stop the guy as soon as you’re outside his radius. What that means is if you teleport away or sprint away, he stops there. So let’s you say spend an hour [somewhere else], then you teleport, sprint, whatever and come back here, he’s still in that same spot, moving forward. He has not come across the body that’s over there or whatever. But even if it’s an abstraction, to us it’s important to keep that guy running – because if I come back and he’s in a different spot it feels a little more cohesive, a little more lived-in, a little more real.

Those are invisible values because they’re hard to communicate to people like publishers. Or even sometimes core technology people – they’re like ‘well, it’s an optimisation we can perform to cache that guy out and respawn him in later’. Then we’re ‘we understand that, but we want to allocate some of your time to make an abstraction of him. He doesn’t have to be fully-modelled if the player can’t see him, but where he’s at and what he’s doing in the world needs to be kept track of.’ And it’s not like we can do that perfectly, but at least we get closer to making a living, breathing environment, y’know? So things don’t just cache out or go to sleep around the corner.

RPS: So one item or one encounter that someone else doesn’t have can lead to a completely different internal narrative or even purpose for that player…

Harvey Smith: Yeah, or I took these two powers and they work in combination that was not planned, but I tried it and it just worked. All the time we saw testers do things we never planned. Like, the time stop power. A guy runs into a room, there are six guys – and six guys in our game is serious problem – so he stops time, then he puts an arrow in the air, an arrow in the air, an arrow in the air [air-draws a semi-circle in front of him]… Anything touching you moves at real-time, so if you bump a lamp it falls, but as soon as it’s half a second away from you it stops. So if you hit a guard, he animates but then stops. So the crossbow bolts leave you for half a second and stop, and then when time resumes all the guards die at once, they all get hit by crossbow bolts at once. And it was magical the first time we saw somebody do that. It’s just this general purpose approach to making game systems.

I can tell you crazy ones, like a guy stops time and as somebody shoots the bullet hangs in the air, then he possesses the guy, walks him around in front of the bullet, and then ejects and then when time resumes the bullet kills him. He suicided in this weird way. There’s all these crazy combinations that we had no plans for, but we trust that if we make things general purpose, the player can get creative. It’s super-cool. That’s our main thing about the game. On one level, you’re a supernatural assassin in a retro-future world, but on another level there’s a lot of variability in this game and it’s ultimately going to be your playthrough.

RPS: I guess it must be strangely sad that you do have to ensure some actions definitely do play out in a certain and known way, just so you know things aren’t breaking.

Harvey Smith: Yeah, there’s a lot of playtests. Because sometimes they do break, and sometimes they break in ways that we go fix, and sometimes they break in ways that we go in and make it bulletproof. Like ‘no, we want that weird thing to happen, but we’ll go in and bulletproof it.’ Once you educate the team that this is our vision, this is our philosophy, they all start doing it too.

So one of the team did this thing where they stopped time, quickly took this spring-razor mine, which throws blades and springs and wires and cuts people into places, and stuck it on the back of a rat. Then they possessed the rat, walked it into this group of guards, then ejected and walked away. When time resumes, the rat is sitting there with the thing on its back and the guards are all around it, frozen where they were, and it’s just [makes ninja throwing star noises]. It kills like five guards.

That did not work perfectly the first time we did it – attaching the spring-razor to the rat did something weird to it, possessing the rat meant you might have seen the spring-razor floating out in front because the attach point was somewhere weird… So it gets a bit like ‘do you guys want us to preclude this exploit, or do you want us to support this exploit?’ We’re ‘that was cool. Very few players are going to do it, but support it. Make sure that when you’re inside the rat’s perspective, the spring-razor is in a place that is camera-ready…’ All the technical bullshit that is behind the scenes, right, but we just find that when we’re playtesting we have to either bulletproof it or fix it.

It is exhilarating, because so few times in most games can something surprising happen. Usually it’s ‘well, I’m on this bridge. The city around me is beautiful, but I can’t leave the bridge, and then there’s a guy at the end of the bridge with a machine gun, behind a car, and I’ve got to slog from cover to cover and blow him up.

 

[Radogol]

do you mean his iphone games? they had great reviews.

That's Randy Smith, Harvey's bro.

 

[subversus]

That's Randy Smith, Harvey's bro.

I believe Harvey did some iphone game in 2008. I'll look up.

Edit: yes, it's called KarmaStar and there is a pretty nice review on IGN about it. I remember being interested in it but I didn't have iPhone back then.

 

[Radogol]

I believe Harvey did some iphone game in 2008. I'll look up.

Edit: yes, it's called KarmaStar and there is a pretty nice review on IGN about it. I remember being interested in it but I didn't have iPhone back then.

Never knew that, downloading now.

Still, I heartily recommend Randy's Spider and especially Waking Mars, as they stay true to the sandboxy gameplay of immersive sims. You get your tools and use them to reach the goal any way you wish.

 

[TeegsD]

Wow had never heard of this before but you now have my attention. Looks and sounds great so I can't wait especially since its supposed to come out this year.

 

[Shawsie64]

Read about this on RPS the other month, looks great.. Very hyped

 

[Draft]

wth, this just came out of nowhere. Looks cool.

edit: Hold on a second, I remember this game. It had all the concept art with bad guys that were straight out of HL2.

 

[Vomiaouaf]

They've been doing a terrible job at promoting this game so far. It has an all-star talent behind it, unique visual style, ambitious game design choices; and yet the hype around it is minimal... Frustrating.

 

[zkylon]

while he didn't mention it I think first-person view is mandatory.

It's been a staple of the genre but I imagine there could be Immersive Sims on other perspectives, though there's something to be said for the precision of first person.

I was looking more towards Thief 2 and Shock 2. Still, immersion can be defined independent of the type of game. Because it's mostly about environment.

System Shock 2 and Thief 2 I think qualify, but it has nothing to do with atmosphere or all-caps IMMERSION.

Then what about Crysis 1? (again not polemical but open discussion) It has interaction (and believable physics), emergent gameplay, and the AI was not "scripted" if I remember correctly.
Can we classify Crysis as an immersive sim? I classify Crysis as a fps, because even if there are sim-systems, the resolution of the challenge doesn't happen through them.

Hmm, good question. I'm not too well versed on the Immersive Sim definition, but I think the problem with Crysis and STALKER is that the systems outside shooting are too simple and they all end up converging in the action mechanics (i.e. you can do some stealth or choose how you traverse an area, but you still spend most of your time shooting or looking for ways to optimize your shooting). A big thing on Immersive Sims is that there are a number of semi-complex systems that you need to exploit to solve problems through emergent gameplay. Crysis or STALKER play more like "sandbox FPSes" or something like that.

I'm still not 100% about this, though, but at least that's how it feels to me.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Thread subscribed. I am BIG TIME interested in this now.

 

[maquiladora]

I'm not a fan of stealth in games, but the design of the game world and focus on immersion really attract me.

 

[KingK]

I've never heard of this before, but now I am officially interested...

 

[rollingstart]

I've been interested in this game but the one thing that bugs me about the pictures is how claustrophobic it looks. I don't know if it's indicative of how it looks to play, but I'm hoping it's not a problem, either through fov slider or whatever. Maybe it's just the huge hands making it worse. For the types of games it's compared to, it needs to have clear spatial and environmental awareness.

 

[Cydonian__Knight]

Immersive sims are my favorite type of game, I am hugely anticipating Dishonored.