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[Übermatik]

Best way for Nintendo to prove their system can produce better visuals than the 360/PS3 is to have games producing better visuals than the 360/PS3. A difference that can be noticed.

So far we have none, and I will continue to wait.

Precisely. Wait until Nintendo shows first party titles that were built from the ground up on the Wii U, not a transitional game that started life on the Wii (I'm looking at you, Pikmin 3...).

We will get great looking titles from nintendo with time, that show a comparable difference from PS3 to Wii U, but until then, we'll just have to wait. I just pray to god we don't have to wait that long.

Now where did this "RETRO's new game on Friday" rumour come from by the way?

 

[ecosse_011172]

32MB high-bandwidth eDRAM, supports 720p 4x MSAA or 1080p rendering in a single pass.

If this is true, this is impressive.

Once again, those are old target specs, did you see any AA at E3?

 

[DonMigs85]

If only Factor 5 was still around and had a new Rogue Squadron ready to go

 

[Hoo-doo]

32MB high-bandwidth eDRAM, supports 720p 4x MSAA or 1080p rendering in a single pass.

If this is true, this is impressive.

If anything, this gives even less credibility to the rumors, as all the games shown at E3 were running at 720p with zero AA.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Precisely. Wait until Nintendo shows first party titles that were built from the ground up on the Wii U, not a transitional game that started life on the Wii (I'm looking at you, Pikmin 3...).

We will get great looking titles from nintendo with time, that show a comparable difference from PS3 to Wii U, but until then, we'll just have to wait. I just pray to god we don't have to wait that long.

Now where did this "RETRO's new game on Friday" rumour come from by the way?

some random (well atleast to me) in the nintengaf chat.

 

[Horse Armour]

How does it work then, RAM-wise?

Well, assuming the pad controller is just displaying the same thing as the TV but downscaled to 480P, then theoretically you'd only need an extra buffer for the controller which should be a few megabytes at most (less than 10MB). As for your question about whether RAM amount is divided somehow between the main screen and the controllers I can say with complete certainty that that doesn't happen. It's most likely like using more than one monitor/TV on a PC.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

ABC News has learned that there are no brightness controls for the touch screen Wii U GamePad controller, which might have been a good option for saving batteries. This is in line with how other Nintendo handhelds operate; the Nintendo 3DS offers no control over screen brightness. Players will have the ability to charge their wireless GamePad controllers using a GamePad cradle that will come with the system, according to Moffitt, so anyone worried about running low on juice during extended gameplay can rest easy.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/technol...pad-to-play-old-wii-games-company-says-at-e3/

I haven't played my 3DS a ton but I was sure there is a brightness option.

And, cradle? I'm hoping for a long USB cord. 12 ft or longer.

 

[Log4Girlz]

As I said earlier I'm not talking about the launch window. I'm talking about showing off a new piece of hardware, painting a picture of the future of said hardware, the future of the company, intellectual properties, and building a momentum for the hardware's launch. Giving your audience a good idea of what they'll be playing soon, and what is going to come in the future. This is how you advertise a whole new platform. Even if those games come later, much later, they show you want the future holds. Nintendo did it for the Wii. They did it for the 3DS. They didn't do it for the Wii U (at least, not yet).

A phoned in console reveal is poopy no matter how amazing Rayman will be.

The only hardware Nintendo is interesting in showing off is that Wii Pad :/

 

[walking fiend]

I personally won't. If by the end of this E3, I haven't seen anything to get hyped for, I'll just leave the WiiU wagon. Nintendo is getting on my nerves:

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- no black WiiU at launch ?
- Platinum Games work on a SD Pikmin while they could produce a visual showcase
- no Retro project ?
- no real incentive to play with the U controller
- Mario art downright stolen from what Orioto posted in this forum
- no Metal Gear
- no CastleVania
- no CoD
- no MMO announcement
- no mention of DQ X in the West
- no EA games except Mass Effect
- no F-Zero or Starfox or DK or Zelda
- what about online fees
- what about a price
- what about a launch date
- what about Wiimotes that are not Motion+ ?

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Nobody needs to answer. I am just disappointed beyond repair. That's it.

The only excuse I can think of, is that Nintendo wanted the media to focus on the GamePad features.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

As I said earlier I'm not talking about the launch window. I'm talking about showing off a new piece of hardware, painting a picture of the future of said hardware, the future of the company, intellectual properties, and building a momentum for the hardware's launch. Giving your audience a good idea of what they'll be playing soon, and what is going to come in the future. This is how you advertise a whole new platform. Even if those games come later, much later, they show you want the future holds. Nintendo did it for the Wii. They did it for the 3DS. They didn't do it for the Wii U (at least, not yet).

A phoned in console reveal is poopy no matter how amazing Rayman will be.

I agree that Nintendo boned the conference. However, the Wii U starts looking better once you dig up some of the various trailers and demos being posted. So their E3 presence isn't a total bust at least. They just missed a lot of golden opportunities.

Yeah, the launch itself is better than Wii's, I mean the only good thing about Wii's launch (beyond Wii sports) was a gamecube game that was up ported. I honestly know I'm buying like 6 of those titles between my wife and I... P-100 btw is looking more and more fun each time I see a new video of it.

Agreed, although I would add that I actually enjoyed Elebits aside from the stuttering frame rate when things got too hectic.

 

[dragonelite]

Once again, those are old target specs, did you see any AA at E3?

Do we have any good footage to judge?
And Edram should be really usable to hold that Fat GBuffer with deferred rendering that is one of the 360 disadvantage the 10MB Edram is too small to hold that GBuffer.
The 32MB Edram should be enough to hold the 1080p RenderTargets(I believe you need 4) you need for deferred rendering.

 

[Mistle]

Is there any truth to the graphics being somewhat restricted because extra power is used for the Upad screen?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Well, assuming the pad controller is just displaying the same thing as the TV but downscaled to 480P, then theoretically you'd only need an extra buffer for the controller which should be a few megabytes at most (less than 10MB).

And if it's not...? Does the tablet then tax the RAM?

(Notwithstanding the already rumored ridiculously large OS footprint.)

 

[Log4Girlz]

This is my summary of Nintendo's entire E3 conference

"Neat"

That's it. Nothing to write home about.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Do we have any good footage to judge?

Yes, look at the LEGO and Pikmin screenshots, plenty of jaggies.

 

[EatChildren]

Is there any truth to the graphics being somewhat restricted because extra power is used for the Upad screen?

Yes. But it depends on the complexity of GamePad screen data. If you're rendering two complex 3D scenes, one on the TV and one on the pad, you're going to get a hit in performance. Stick with basic 2D stuff on the GamePad and you'll free up resources.

This is how it should work in theory, anywho.

 

[Mistle]

Once again, those are old target specs, did you see any AA at E3?

I read an impression from the showfloor that said NSMBU looked extremely smooth, AA wise. Not sure how credible that is though, lol

 

[JonathanPower]

If anything, this gives even less credibility to the rumors, as all the games shown at E3 were running at 720p with zero AA.

Well, I dunno about the credibility of this rumor, but in the case that this is true, having 32MB of embedded memory would be an impressive spec, since embedded memory is very expansive.

 

[lherre]

Once again, those are old target specs, did you see any AA at E3?

mmm so they removed the 32 mb in the final devkits?

 

[Log4Girlz]

mmm so they removed the 32 mb in the final devkits?

32 mb? Man 32 megabits ain't nothin.

 

[Übermatik]

some random (well atleast to me) in the nintengaf chat.

Yeah I was there when it was mentioned, but I hoped he'd got it from somewhere else. Also, i lost the link to NintenGAF chat... any help?

 

[Horse Armour]

And if it's not...?

I'd assume it's like using two monitors, the GPU has to handle the increased memory costs of the additional framebuffer as well as any additional memory costs due to things like possibly having to load different textures. Since the Wii U pad is only 480P, the additional framebuffer memory cost should be negligible if it does indeed have 1.5GB of RAM so the main memory costs should come when the pad is displaying a completely different scene and having to load all new textures, geometry etc for the new scene so the memory costs of displaying a new scene on the tablet could be almost double (I'd guess around 75%) displaying the same thing as the TV.

 

[Always-honest]

32MB high-bandwidth eDRAM, supports 720p 4x MSAA or 1080p rendering in a single pass.

If this is true, this is impressive.

And that's what we'd like to see when the games launch. Or a bit before launch if they want to lure us in to buying one.

If anything, this gives even less credibility to the rumors, as all the games shown at E3 were running at 720p with zero AA.

again. Ideaman said that the floor demo's might not have all bells and whistles. He said AA will be included (depending on the game, but it's not hard to include)

 

[Polari]

For people complaining about the lack of a graphical showcase, Project P-100 looks pretty great to me. Watch from 7 minutes or so until the end, it's pretty impressive.

 

[LCGeek]

The Wii U is similar enough, though with more RAM to the current gen that damn, everything should look like current gen but with vastly better textures at the very least.

To me it's not.

I find it funny we are comparing an X19XX 512MB machine to a 1.5GB R700. I already know how my pc games run using these types of setup. If devs on a closed box can't do more than what they are already doing now it's not nintendo at fault unless something is horribly awry with designing games. People who had the money have already seen the and know the performance difference. The current twins aren't galaxies apart from WiiU but they are worlds and for distinct reasons.

Also you can't upgrade crap and sorry to be blunt you can't. Been the same with lesser platforms and since we know these are ports the expectation is misplaced.

Why expect more when the money, dev quality, and effort are less? Power can't enter the equation the pc realm is proof ports are limited by the base design no matter what bells and whistles you add. People just dismiss the fact that tons of capcom games this gen and last gen still perform like crap on pcs. They dismiss all the garbage ports we have seen go from 360 to ps3 and ps3 to 360. Again I'm not the one expecting a console with similar power to somehow magically change a reality that no other platform has yet to do.

 

[dragonelite]

32 mb? Man 32 megabits ain't nothin.

It's big enough to hold all four 1080p render targets you need for deferred rendering.
And the bandwidth should really help.

 

[Mistle]

Yes. But it depends on the complexity of GamePad screen data. If you're rendering two complex 3D scenes, one on the TV and one on the pad, you're going to get a hit in performance. Stick with basic 2D stuff on the GamePad and you'll free up resources.

This is how it should work in theory, anywho.

Makes sense. I'm a bit worried some devs will get a bit lazy and not optimize performance. I really don't want graphical restriction/frame rate drops to compensate for the Upad to become common.

 

[Log4Girlz]

It's big enough to hold all four 1080p render targets you need for deferred rendering.
And the bandwidth should really help.

I'm making a megabits (mb), megabytes (MB) joke.

 

[v1oz]

Also as I have mentioned there is a Nintendo hardware team that had a huge hand in creating the Wii's gpu, they aren't just paid to stand around, and they have heavy connections to ATI, so if they didn't have a hand in creating Wii U's GPU, it would go beyond logic.

I wouldn't give them much hope after the 3DS and Wii. The 3DS GPU under delivers even for what it is. The Wii despite hardware upgrades and doubled memory didnt provide better visuals than GameCube.

Nintendo should scrap the internal hardware team, give ATI a price point and let them design the whole system from scratch unhindered. I think they make better choices. The team that designed the N64 and GameCube for Nintendo are at ATI. It looks like ATI is merely providing a GPU this time.

.

 

[dragonelite]

I'm making a megabits (mb), megabytes (MB) joke.

Dam you... I just assume people always mean MB on the interwebz

 

[EatChildren]

Makes sense. I'm a bit worried some devs will get a bit lazy and not optimize performance. I really don't want graphical restriction/frame rate drops to compensate for the Upad to become common.

Think of it like split screen. Whenever you play a split screen game, you might notice framerate and/or game detail is lowered. This is necessary as the game needs to render itself twice. Mario Kart Wii is a good example of this. The geometry is already basic as shit to begin with, so there's no compromise in split screen, but the framerate drops from 60fps to 30fps. Double the game, double the performance cost.

If devs keep GamePad data very simple and optimise well, they'll have most of the hardware available to render the main game. If they decide to do lots of gimmicky 3D stuff on the pad it will come at a cost.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Yeah I was there when it was mentioned, but I hoped he'd got it from somewhere else. Also, i lost the link to NintenGAF chat... any help?

Its bookmarked on my computer, on a phone right now. Somebody help this man! Or check the roundtable thread.

 

[magash]

I think it would have been better for Nintendo to just show bullshots/tech demos.

 

[EatChildren]

I think it would have been better for Nintendo to just show bullshots/tech demos.

Ubisoft will have the bullshots covered.

HD Red Steel never forget.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I wouldn't give them much hope after the 3DS and Wii. The 3DS GPU under delivers even for what it is. The Wii despite hardware upgrades and doubled memory didnt provide better visuals than GameCube.

Nintendo should scrap the internal hardware team, give ATI a price point and let them design the whole system from scratch unhindered. I think they make better choices. The team that designed the N64 and GameCube for Nintendo are at ATI. It looks like ATI is merely providing a GPU this time.

.

Well, Mario Galaxy series and Xenoblade are nice as fuck when compared to Gamecube (Xenoblade for scale, the textures on characters was ass).

I think the hardware specs as stated so far is enough to provide noticeably superior to Uncharted/Halo4/Last of Us/Gears of War 4/God of War 4 graphics. None of the Nintendo games even approaches any of those top tier last gen games. I've said before in the WUST thread that making such games will not be trivial, as it takes a major budgetary investment and experience.

I hold out for what Retro is working on. They have a knack for creating pretty games and they have a lot of talent right now.

 

[japtor]

They have to do both. People buy it for launch stuff but also for what is coming down the line. Of course you could just say "Zelda, Mario and all Nintendo stuff is coming!" but I would rather see something solid, even if it is a year out.

Unless they bust something out over the next month or so, I will be waiting till next E3 to see what they do and how MS/Sony react.

Yeah, especially because how the Wii ended up. Focusing on launch games is fine (particularly since the rest of E3 seems to be mostly 2013 stuff), but they had to throw out something to indicate continued stuff down the line. Even just closing with a "sneak peak of games coming next year" or something would've been fine.

That said I could see them continually releasing tidbits, embracing this whole internet thing finally. They've already been doing it with Nintendo Direct, I'd expect more mini events like that up to launch.

Filthy excite truck! People would be leaping for joy if they showed one at this conference though.

Definitely, that or F-Zero would've been enough for me.

That said I'm interested in the Platinum game and Namco's 2009 arcade tank game port!

Spoiler

EXCITE TANK

mmm so they removed the 32 mb in the final devkits?

Enlighten us

 

[Horse Armour]

Well, Mario Galaxy series and Xenoblade are nice as fuck when compared to Gamecube (Xenoblade for scale, the textures on characters was ass).

I think the hardware specs as stated so far is enough to provide noticeably superior to Uncharted/Halo4/Last of Us/Gears of War 4/God of War 4 graphics. None of the Nintendo games even approaches any of those top tier last gen games. I've said before in the WUST thread that making such games will not be trivial, as it takes a major budgetary investment and experience.

I hold out for what Rare is working on. They have a knack for creating pretty games and they have a lot of talent right now.

Isn't Rare MS first party?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Isn't Rare MS first party?

Whoops, edited to Retro LOLZ

 

[Übermatik]

Its bookmarked on my computer, on a phone right now. Somebody help this man! Or check the roundtable thread.

AAAAAAAAAAH.

Spoiler

I'll check the roundtable thread...

 

[TUROK]

Nope, doesn't work like that.

It kind of does. Any assets not already being displayed on the main screen need to be stored in the RAM.

Is there any truth to the graphics being somewhat restricted because extra power is used for the Upad screen?

Yes. I read somewhere that the screen has a resolution of 854x540, so the WiiU hardware has to create at least one 1280x720 render target for the main screen, and another 854x540 render target for the UPad.

Two RT's, no tiling, plus deferred rendering (which is becoming extremely commonplace), and you end up with having to display games at 720p and no MSAA.

 

[Horse Armour]

It kind of does. Any assets not already being displayed on the main screen need to be stored in the RAM.

Yes. I read somewhere that the screen has a resolution of 854x540, so the WiiU hardware has to create at least one 1280x720 render target for the main screen, and another 854x540 render target for the UPad.

Two RT's, no tiling, plus deferred rendering (which is becoming extremely commonplace), and you end up with having to display games at 720p and no MSAA.

I meant that the Wii U memory won't divide in half when a pad is connected or into a third when 2 pads are connected like the guy I was quoting thought.

 

[magash]

Ubisoft will have the bullshots covered.

HD Red Steel never forget.

Yeah I remeber that.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Yeah I remeber that.

Any images of this? I vaguely recall it.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Hmm... for someone who speaks tech - based on these specs where would the technical differential of Wii U vs PS360 be relative to:

N64 vs PSOne
PS2 vs PSOne
PS2 vs N64
XBOX vs N64
XBOX vs PS2
Wii vs GCN
Wii vs XBOX
PS360 vs Wii
PS360 vs XBOX
PS360 vs PS2

 

[Log4Girlz]

Sigh. Seriously, if I had never known Beyond: Two Souls was a PS3 game, and someone came along and said it was a first gen PS4 game, I would totally believe them. Totally looks like the sort of jump I expect going from one machine, to a first gen launch game to a successor system.

Zombi U looks like Condemned.

Hmm... for someone who speaks tech - based on these specs where would the technical differential of Wii U vs PS360 be relative to:

N64 vs PSOne
PS2 vs PSOne
XBOX vs PS2
Wii vs GCN
PS360 vs Wii
PS360 vs XBOX
PS360 vs PS2

Potentially Xbox vs. PS2. Different class of shaders, more raw grunt, but still in the same generation.

 

[cyberheater]

Ubisoft will have the bullshots covered.

HD Red Steel never forget.

EatChildren. In your opinion. Are there any games shown at E3 for either PS3 or Xbox360 that look better then Pikmin 3 or Trine on WiiU?

There is an avatar bet at stake here.

 

[LCGeek]

It kind of does. Any assets not already being displayed on the main screen need to be stored in the RAM.

Yes. I read somewhere that the screen has a resolution of 854x540, so the WiiU hardware has to create at least one 1280x720 render target for the main screen, and another 854x540 render target for the UPad.

Two RT's, no tiling, plus deferred rendering (which is becoming extremely commonplace), and you end up with having to display games at 720p and no MSAA.

I hadn't really considered what the pad would do to power on the system. I know you're pretty good on this stuff. Considering how many pixels it has to do vs ps3/360 think nintendo really gave it enough juice considering it's pushing more overall than the other 2 are?

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Zombi U looks like Condemned.

My first thought as well, Condemned 3 (with motion controls).

 

[EatChildren]

EatChildren. In your opinion. Are there any games shown at E3 for either PS3 or Xbox360 that look better then Pikmin 3 or Trine on WiiU?

There is an avatar bet at stake here.

On a technical level The Last of Us looks better. Much of why Pikmin 3 looks good comes down to the art mixed with some neat tech. I stand by my claims of the Wii origins being evident: geometry is pretty low poly, textures are a mixed bag, and Olimar/companions are pretty basic looking. Great looking game, but not a technical show piece by any stretch.

Trine 2 I don't know because I haven't seen direct feed footage of the Wii U version. I know the devs claim it looks better which is cool, but I need direct feed to say for sure. The screenshots in the press kit were maxed out supersampled PC shots. You can find most of them on Steam.

 

[Log4Girlz]

My first thought as well, Condemned 3 (with motion controls).

I was thinking Condemned 1 lol.