Meccanical
Member
Considering I don't even remember anything of note that XIII Cid did, following archetypes would have only improved him.
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Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII announced for 2013 [Up3: Famitsu Details]
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
Considering I don't even remember anything of note that XIII Cid did, following archetypes would have only improved him.
XIII's Cid being a failure doesn't mean all of them should suddenly be the same or share a bunch of traits.
They should still continue to make each Cid as unique as they can, and hopefully more people will enjoy them if they are better written or whatever is needed. I just hate the idea of them being the same but maybe that's just me and given I love Cid Raines and think he is probably the best character in the game aside from Fang it could very well just be me who wants them unique.
* Picked up Fang, flew around looking for Vanille.
* Picked up Snow, recruited the rest of the group to go against the Sanctum PSICOM, and the Cocoon Fal'cie to free Cocoon's citizens from their rule.
* Eventually turned into a l'cie near the end by Barthandelus. Died a shell of his former self, since his focus forced him to betray his beliefs.
* Picked up Snow, recruited the rest of the group to go against the Sanctum PSICOM, and the Cocoon Fal'cie to free Cocoon's citizens from their rule.
* Eventually turned into a l'cie near the end by Barthandelus. Died a shell of his former self, since his focus forced him to betray his beliefs.
Here's a summary. This site is the best out there for catching up on XIII lore, characters, and datalog stuff as well as Ultimania details.
Meccanical
Member
That's fair.
I just want a better Cid next time.
XII's Cid was great, and I hope to have another as great as him.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Cid Aulstyne. Believe.
Meccanical
Member
I want to, if Square ever makes a move.
Which they should, but SE doesn't do the things it should very often.
Edit: Just noticed something, in every FNC game so far Cid has been a villain, I wonder if that will continue in Versus.
Haha, well I hate Snow too. He's the typical shounen hero archetype taken to the super extreme. There wasn't enough eye rolls for every piece of dialogue that came out of his mouth.
shounen heroes are shounen, he's not anywhere near the archetype to be honest, I seriously do not mind if a little brat is like that, snow shouldn't have been like that.
anyways from what announced so far, this has some potentials. this might make me go back to finish 13-2, (did I mention I got the japanese version day 1? lol such a waste of money)
arg
fuck you snow, fuck you
Just skip the cutscenes.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Alyssa isn't there for Lightning Returns. If she were, though, I would imagine that she would be shunned by the FF13 cast. As for everyone else, though... perhaps since they're worshipping another god, I might expect them to not be so receptive to Lightning. If the other town in the game has a bunch of people who still worship Etro (perhaps even a small possibly persecuted religious group in Luxerion), then they would probably be welcoming to her, and possibly the FF13 heroes.
If people don't have a government that they would try to put in place themselves, or try to find a group of people/a person to try to place a role of governance upon, chaos will most likely ensue. That is why societies tend to have some sort of hierarchical framework, or some sort of person who gives some sort of finality to decisions. They would probably latch onto some person who provides the sort of stuff discussed (ex: energy, education, food production, agriculture, technology, policies, etc.). But it's difficult to believe that after centuries, or even a decade after, we wouldn't see the emerging prominence of an opposing group who disagrees with the policies that the Academy has set forth. In the lead-up or budding emergence of the Academy, you'll still have some people who oppose their rule because they may think the Sanctum is good for them (young or old) regardless of what they did in the past. It's simply clinging to something familiar rather than something new... and for a world of people who were extremely coddled by one government body, it makes a lot of sense. It's like when provinces or nations vote in the same party or same leader for many terms because they're used to the job they're doing and just don't want a drastic change due to being overly familiar with the platform.
Now if you told me that the Academy was an institution akin to the UN, IMF, WB, etc. and didn't have direct influence on world rule maybe then I'd understand. But here, we see them with their own capital city, doing many things for the people living in their city, and possibly all around the world. If they were located in the video game equivalent of Switzerland, then maybe it would be plausible.
The people who laid the framework for the Academy's beginnings were older, and it's just funny that (and yes, you may argue that he got there because he was an intelligent guy motivated by his mother's death and Lightning's disappearance) his father was in charge of it and miraculously he's de facto in charge of the world's government at 24. It strikes me as... just weird, and wondering if there's any other person in charge of the Academy who's older or people who were in charge of it during the time
Hope was frozen
I have to agree and disagree with regards to how much info they've exposed about the game world. They give you a lot of stuff about the game world in brief snippets... in the datalog and fragment list. All those people you ran around in the Academy said some meaningless stuff (well, outside of the quiz sidequest in FF13-2 because that one was a pain in the butt) in comparison to the NPCs in the excavation sites you had to explore. But then again, a lot of this stuff is in prequel novels, sequel novels, or the ultimanias... which have info that western audiences generally aren't privy to. What I will agree with, though, is how much we don't know about Pulse itself. How big is it, or how many colonies sprung up around there after Cocoon fell, or if there are any surviving nations on the other side of the planet? That's the stuff we should know.
I think LR might be concentrated on one area in general, though, so it's not going to answer questions like this.
I genuinely dislike how the FF13 games have handled world building so far. It makes for a disjointed world, imo... :/
Meccanical
Member
I hate most of the cast of XIII equally.
Except for Fang and Sazh.
And with Fang it's only because she's hot.
It's JRPG, really. Most of the characters fits in some kind of cliche pretty well, Snow is just an abomination.
Many great RPG leads lack character and are lightning alike, it's just SE tried to make her to be something that she didn't have to be, (especially the respin for 13-2) that was the problem.
Overall, snow is the only thing really wrong with 13-2 character wise.
He was an attempted foreshadowing at the literal Deus Ex Machina in the ending. Except then they decided to make it a Deus Ex Machina instead.
There have been few villains I have relished slaughtering quite like Cid Aulstyne. The guy is such a total and complete monster the entire game.
I like Fang, Sazh, and Lightning. The rest can hang, really. Well, okay, so as of XIII-2 I like Serah, Noel and Mog, just because they're practically the Goldfish poop Gang of FFXIII.
StunandStab
Member
Supermanisdead
Member
I go through phases of love/hate with this series. I sold both games a while ago and now I really want to buy them again. I'm gonna wait if they release the dual pack, plus if it has DLC. Best part was the summons. I really missed those in 13-2. Those crystal graphics <3
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
I thought I remember reading in one of the interviews that they only named him Cid after much deliberation. Something about Kitase or Toriyama saying that recurring elements like Cid and whatnot being not that important (lol). But they changed their minds and named him Cid anyway. It's been so long so I can't really verify this claim of mind.
What this artwork is about? A Brotherhood/Bhunivelze's followers hunting for Witches/Lightning/Etro's followers?
If night really gets that dark, that's pretty awesome. But yeah, your guess is pretty good. The picture reminds me of the village of crazies in Gymkata.
love that movie
WrenchNinja
Member
So this thread convinced me to pick up XIII2. Played a couple of hours.
Im actually kind of sort of maybe liking it.
Maybe cause Noel is really likable and you get the battle system right from the beginning.
Im actually kind of sort of maybe liking it.
Maybe cause Noel is really likable and you get the battle system right from the beginning.
Cid in XIII was actually a decent character. He had clear motivations, was integral to the plot and was much more relatable that pretty much any other NPC in the game. In fact his motivations, story arc and what what he actually did in the game all aligned perfectly and seemed to have been more thought out than what the main cast was doing.
Also the boss fight! That was pretty much the first time the game actively required Paradigm shifting and made you use the battle system. That was pretty awesome.
Just noticed something and correct if I'm wrong, but is Toriyama the first FF director that went from making mainline titles into creating a spin-off? I can't think of anyone else who got demoted like this, so to say.
Noel is probably the best protagonist in an FF game for quite some time. He, alongside with Caius and Yeul, pretty much carry the game.
Also the boss fight! That was pretty much the first time the game actively required Paradigm shifting and made you use the battle system. That was pretty awesome.
Just noticed something and correct if I'm wrong, but is Toriyama the first FF director that went from making mainline titles into creating a spin-off? I can't think of anyone else who got demoted like this, so to say.
Noel is probably the best protagonist in an FF game for quite some time. He, alongside with Caius and Yeul, pretty much carry the game.
I don't see how that means he's demoted...
Yeah, I guessed that as well. Looks like there's a building up ahead so maybe she's not allowed near there as it's like a church? Love how surreal and old everything looks.
AlphaDragoon
Member
All the hate's on Lightning because she deserves it more than Snow does.
He's just a badly overdone trope. She's the worst FF main character ever made. Priorities.
Noel was the boss. Him, Sazh, Caius and Yeul were the only good things to ever come out of the XIII universe.
Yeah, she can climb (I think, but I assume if you hang off ledges you can though), crouch, hide behind cover and hang off ledges. Heard the world was designed with light plat-forming in mind.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Maybe they'll make the platforming not shit this time.
*skeptical*
Edit: I'm serious. That last dungeon was some hackneyed way of saying, "hey we've got platforming now but we never put any thought into this dungeon design or the jumping animations whatsoever except to show you that we have jumping!!"
*skeptical*
Edit: I'm serious. That last dungeon was some hackneyed way of saying, "hey we've got platforming now but we never put any thought into this dungeon design or the jumping animations whatsoever except to show you that we have jumping!!"
No thought into the dungeon designs? That level is gorgeous, filled with moving platforms, making it into a puzzle. You have to think and plan out the correct route. It's like the temple puzzles in FFX. I don't see why anyone hates it honestly.
The jumping was a lot more fun when you got the hover jump upgrade also.
Fimbulvetr
Member
What does the former have to do with the latter?Shinta said:
So does Castlevania: LoS, doesnt mean theyre inherently good.Shinta said:
Also doesnt make the dungeon into a puzzle, unless you consider waiting for the slowest turning platform to ever exist or pressing a switch that the game told you to press to be a puzzle.
And those were a huge drag.Shinta said:
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
I'm sorry, but I disagree wholeheartedly. It's one thing to look pretty and shiny with the golden tetris blocks, and then there's another thing to be functional and cohesive. The entire dungeon is designed around the jump mechanic, which has the strangest jump animation I've ever seen. Even Yuna has a better jump animation in FFX-2. There is little challenge to the puzzle elements as well outside of having to reset the stupid thing to get the bestiary fragment or fall off edges to complete the map. It isn't very difficult. And nothing happens outside of fighting giraffes halfway through.
The problem is that the dungeon's map is that it isn't cohesive, and it's clearly designed around the hover jump, but it never ever made proper use of it outside of: map the entire area with your hover jump at certain areas of the platform rather than being able to jump over the invisible walls they put into place, and get to the end/storybits/checkpoints. Then you have to wait for the slowly rotating platforms in order to jump rather than having a charge on your jump to at least try to make it over mid-rotation. I'd wrote this in the game's OT a while ago, but it applies here. "If they wanted to make a level that showcased jumping and platforming, I would've preferred the level design to facilitate and make sense of the platforming as opposed to making it obvious that it's the gimmick of the final dungeon. I'd almost equate it to Dimps's fascination with boosters and springs in Sonic games.
"Mystic Quest facilitates the jumping mechanic in that game well, for example. It made the jumping crucial to the level design, and used it in creative ways in the design. The design never ever revolved around the single jumping mechanic, but rather facilitated the use of many of your items. That game has better dungeons that made use of the jump and never seemed to make it a centralized feature of the game. El Shaddai--even though the platforming was sub-par in that game--at least constructed its level design in a manner that made the jumping make sense as opposed to making it feel like a gimmick that just didn't work very well."
Additionally, the jumping animations bug me in that there just isn't any momentum communicated behind the force and height of either characters' jumps... It was just a weird truncated animation thing.
That final dungeon is a good example of how not to do platforming at all. The platforming overall felt like a forced way to include some sort of interactivity with the jump mechanic. It wasn't difficult. It was boring in terms of design revolving around the jump mechanic which has controlled distance and where you have to wait for slow platforms to revolve in your direction, and 100%ing the map (sometimes by voluntarily falling off the area of the platform that allows you to fall off). Pressing a switch in order to change the directions where the platforms revolve isn't much of a puzzle. It's just logical to do that if you want to 100% the map.
That's the type of thing that turned me off to desiring a Final Fantasy platformer from Square-Enix despite having played numerous platformers around that time. I can't defend that final dungeon at all.
The problem is that the dungeon's map is that it isn't cohesive, and it's clearly designed around the hover jump, but it never ever made proper use of it outside of: map the entire area with your hover jump at certain areas of the platform rather than being able to jump over the invisible walls they put into place, and get to the end/storybits/checkpoints. Then you have to wait for the slowly rotating platforms in order to jump rather than having a charge on your jump to at least try to make it over mid-rotation. I'd wrote this in the game's OT a while ago, but it applies here. "If they wanted to make a level that showcased jumping and platforming, I would've preferred the level design to facilitate and make sense of the platforming as opposed to making it obvious that it's the gimmick of the final dungeon. I'd almost equate it to Dimps's fascination with boosters and springs in Sonic games.
"Mystic Quest facilitates the jumping mechanic in that game well, for example. It made the jumping crucial to the level design, and used it in creative ways in the design. The design never ever revolved around the single jumping mechanic, but rather facilitated the use of many of your items. That game has better dungeons that made use of the jump and never seemed to make it a centralized feature of the game. El Shaddai--even though the platforming was sub-par in that game--at least constructed its level design in a manner that made the jumping make sense as opposed to making it feel like a gimmick that just didn't work very well."
Additionally, the jumping animations bug me in that there just isn't any momentum communicated behind the force and height of either characters' jumps... It was just a weird truncated animation thing.
That final dungeon is a good example of how not to do platforming at all. The platforming overall felt like a forced way to include some sort of interactivity with the jump mechanic. It wasn't difficult. It was boring in terms of design revolving around the jump mechanic which has controlled distance and where you have to wait for slow platforms to revolve in your direction, and 100%ing the map (sometimes by voluntarily falling off the area of the platform that allows you to fall off). Pressing a switch in order to change the directions where the platforms revolve isn't much of a puzzle. It's just logical to do that if you want to 100% the map.
That's the type of thing that turned me off to desiring a Final Fantasy platformer from Square-Enix despite having played numerous platformers around that time. I can't defend that final dungeon at all.
Onion_Relish
Member
I hope your lack of conviction is only due to the game just starting and not due to a perceived fear of anti ff13 gaffers. Ff13-2 is a great game. The really big downside to it is the gambling which is mediocre. Otherwise the game is great.
That did feel like a last minute entry, really. I do hope this time it's made with plat-forming in mind from the beginning.
I didn't dislike it, just underwhelming. But was certainly much better than XIII's final dungeon to me.
Just surprised honestly. I thought the level was neat, and I liked having something new to do in the final area. The platforms weren't that slow really. I don't think I even noticed because I was admiring the insanely gorgeous level, and great music in that area too much. It was like Oracle's Cradle, part II.
People can call it a gimmick I guess if they want. Depends on how cynical you want to be. The game is an RPG, and is obviously not a platforming game. It just was a neat bonus near the end for me, and something that mixed up the gameplay.
People complain about linear corridors, then say the platforms are too slow and they can't just run through the thing? I just don't get it. /shrug
I enjoyed it. Made each temple feel like an event. Reminded me of Zelda. I'm honestly surprised the series has gone this long without puzzles.
People can call it a gimmick I guess if they want. Depends on how cynical you want to be. The game is an RPG, and is obviously not a platforming game. It just was a neat bonus near the end for me, and something that mixed up the gameplay.
People complain about linear corridors, then say the platforms are too slow and they can't just run through the thing? I just don't get it. /shrug
I enjoyed it. Made each temple feel like an event. Reminded me of Zelda. I'm honestly surprised the series has gone this long without puzzles.
R_thanatos
Member
ah ah ahh ..NO
academia 500 AF design is horrible. The level isn't that gorgeous .its' pretty but there are many thing that don't work . The level is needlessly complicated , not that it's hard ..but there is no real cohesion to the ensemble ..This level is the only horrible design in the entire ff13 franchise so far.
it's not like there is even something to solve within it , you're just making tedious jumps and to understand this level , you either have to trial and error or wait , wait and wait ... to see how the dongeon moves ..orphan cradle was a million times better.
The boring music doesn't help
Interesting. It reminded me of Parasite Eve so I thought was great.
* Boring Music
* No Cohesion to the Ensemble
* Needlessly Complicated
* Simple Trial and Error
* Slow Platforms
The 1st one, I just flat out disagree but it's a matter of opinion I guess. The 2nd, I have no clue what you mean. The 3rd and 4th seem to kind of contradict each other, and just seems ironic to me given the complaints of linearity in the first game. And the 5th is because it's an RPG, not Mega Man on NES. They didn't want to make it that difficult for RPG gamers to get through the game when it was basically the first platforming in the whole FF series.
Kind of loosely reminds me of Al'Taieu from FFXI, also by Mizuta. Take out the piano line on top and they're a little similar.
I didn't play through 13-2, but my impression of the area when I watched it played out was that it was Academia for a 3rd time. That means it was 3rd time reuse of the areas and the use of pretty generic blocks/platforms indicated development was running low on time. This happens to most RPGs really, the most impressive stuff is usually front-loaded where they can wow the player and suck them in.
But I don't know how you can attribute it to being gorgeous and neat when it's been used twice already, and that it's using BLOCKS for heaven's sake, the easiest thing you could plausibly make in 3d modeling software. Your labeling of it as Orphan's Cradle part II only makes it worse, because Orphan's Cradle was originally bad to begin with. A gorgeous and neat last dungeon is Ultimecia's Castle. Academia 500AF doesn't come close.
Hm that actually sounds similar, but at the beginning it as a striking similarity to The Cradle will Fall (that's the name right?) Final dungeon theme of XIII.
The blocks all have this crazy wave pattern that ripples across them and looks super neat. And throughout the whole background, you can see them flying in the air and forming new structures, then separating. When I first saw it, I was completely blown away honestly. It looked like super hyper-advanced, automated construction technology of the future for building the new Cocoon.
I think they said in the datalog that it was the result of something else, but I'd have to check. We all know the game was made quickly, and they reused several areas in different time periods. And it is Academia again, but it's so different that it's really almost unrecognizable. The only thing that's the same really is the backdrop of buildings wrapped around the perimeter that you don't interact with. Coming back to the same city in the future, I was immediately like ... "holy shit ... so they've come this far?"
And Orphan's Cradle was bad? That's easily the most impressive area in any FF game for me ever. I think Eden in XIII is a close 2nd.
I'll say this about FFXIII-2's final "dungeon": it sure didn't feel like a final dungeon. I was somewhat surprised when it became clear that the only thing left to do after that was take on the final battles. Maybe it was because there were a lot of optional things I hadn't done (such as take on that big monster on the Archylte Steppe), or because not nearly as much play time had passed as in FFXIII, but I thought it was an ordinary late-game area and that there would be more to come.
I also think they missed an opportunity when they ascribed these floating platforms to some hand-wavey "chaos" thing. They should have had the rising platforms be
.
(Edit: Shinta, great minds think alike. Go ahead and click my spoiler, because we have similar ideas about construction.)
I also think they missed an opportunity when they ascribed these floating platforms to some hand-wavey "chaos" thing. They should have had the rising platforms be
actual streets and buildings being carried up to Bhunivelze as part of humanity dismantling Academia and transporting their civilization up there
(Edit: Shinta, great minds think alike. Go ahead and click my spoiler, because we have similar ideas about construction.)
I can tell you this: busy shit in the background doesn't mean it's good level design. I saw the wave ripples. They're flashy, but nothing else. If I'm not mistaken, it only requires a moving texture to do, unless Crystal Tools can't handle that.
If you thought Orphan's Cradle was the most impressive area in any FF game for you ever, then you must have only played FF13. But you played more than that (13-2 at least), which means you're no good at evaluating levels/areas. In 13 itself there were areas that looked more impressive than Orphan's Cradle: Nautilus (however worthless it was), Eden, Palumpolum, etc.
Ratchet and Clank games tend to have levels that are lively and have lots of things moving in the background, but the reason why the levels in those games are good aren't simply based on how pretty they are.
Seriously, that was a major missed opportunity. I think I'll always pretend that's what it was anyway, since it doesn't really disrupt any of the other story.
I've been playing them since FFI on NES. I think we just value different things. Nautilus is extremely impressive as well. I just was blown away by the level in Orphan's Cradle. I like the abstract design, the color, the panels with outer space reflected across it and the singularity turning the machinery of Cocoon in the center. The song sure didn't hurt either.
I think the people making the game thought it was something special too, considering it's the final area in the game, and they used it in Dissidia 012.
I can't in good consciousness find a defense for Academia 500AF, or 400 for that matter. The former is a terribly designed platforming section where the jumping was until that point just a minor bulletpoint to appeal to people who like jumping on command, while the latter is full of enemies created for XIII's encounter system but not changed for XIII-2's.
Both Academias and Orphan's Cradle look pretty, but that's it. They're terrible to actually play. The Dissidia version of Orphan's Cradle is more fun to play on than the XIII one simply because you can actually free roam on it.
Both Academias and Orphan's Cradle look pretty, but that's it. They're terrible to actually play. The Dissidia version of Orphan's Cradle is more fun to play on than the XIII one simply because you can actually free roam on it.
Particularly after the car race scene as the heroes arrive in Eden, all I could think of was that the designers of FFXIII's final dungeon were big Wipeout fans and were inspired by the design of Wipeout Pure. The red-and-pink parts of Orphan's Cradle looked like an HD version of Pure's Altima VII:
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
For a dungeon designed around jumping around and platforming, which it truly is because much of the design was fixed upon it, waiting around to jump on a platform and not even being able modify your jumping distance or velocity to consistently jump on a moving platform which moves extremely slowly does not make for a fluid and fast dungeon which has a central focus on jumping around and platforming. It gets boring becomes not as cohesive as one would expect.
Pretty is pretty. But pretty can only get a level/dungeon so far. And I'm saying that as a person who fixates on art design in games a lot.
It's cool that you like it, but I didn't like the design and intent of it at all.
Haha, don't get me started on Academia 400. I get the intent and design around it, and I would have loved it ...if it had FFXIII's encounter system, and didn't spawn enemies after a very short recovery time. It doesn't allow for painless exploration, really. It's a shame because Academia looks kinda cool at night.Noi said:
To their credit, at least they don't interrupt the epic music each time you get into one of those innumerable fights. Chaotic Guardian is my favorite piece in the game.