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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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snap0212

Member
thelongdarkriversofhell said:
Come on now, the site is all but mentioned. Words like click-bait pretty much give it away.
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shagg_187 said:
Knowing the name might be bad karma for ACKKStudios.
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Haha, yeah, we can pretty much guess what site she’s talking about. However, I wish people would just call them by name instead of tip-toeing around it for such reasons.

Like I said, Kotaku is clearly not interested in coverage of the game itself anyways and when she basically mentions them without saying their name. If Kotaku will blacklist them, they'll do it based on this as well. :(
 
G

Gannd

Banned
snap0212 said:
Haha, yeah, we can pretty much guess what site she’s talking about. However, I wish people would just call them by name instead of tip-toeing around it for such reasons.

Like I said, Kotaku is clearly not interested in coverage of the game itself anyways and when she basically mentions them without saying their name. If Kotaku will blacklist them, they'll do it based on this as well. :(
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Exactly. They might as well shame them and cause an uproar.
 
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mclem

Member
It might *not* be Kotaku, folks. It helps immensely that there's been a few people from that site who've been in and out of this thread multiple times, so - if that's the case - I'm sure they can come in and state categorically that this report isn't referring to them, can't they?
 
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sonicmj1

Member
CVG is the one site that I know would run an interview just to get a quote they could take out of context saying something controversial, but I have no idea if they've taken any stand on this issue.
 
F

Feature

Banned
shagg_187 said:
Don't know if posted but HOLY SHIT, ICE COLD AND BRUTAL. Written by the infamous Rab Florence:

http://effingarcade.tumblr.com/post/36277287313/molyneux-and-fucking-kickstarter



And this right here is why I love his shit.
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Totally agree with everything he said I have been thinking exactly the same thing. These guys can cough up the money themselves easily from all the customers they ripped of with their other garbage games (molyneux mainly). That people believe even half what this hack says blows my mind. But hey, as long as there are enough dumb people to poor money in his projects of make-believe, why stop right? Everyone who buys one of his games or donates money to it, deserves the piece of utter garbage they get in the end.
 
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CecilRousso

Member
Feature said:
Totally agree with everything he said I have been thinking exactly the same thing. These guys can cough up the money themselves easily from all the customers they ripped of with their other garbage games (molyneux mainly). That people believe even half what this hack says blows my mind. But hey, as long as there are enough dumb people to poor money in his projects of make-believe, why stop right? Everyone who buys one of his games or donates money to it, deserves the piece of utter garbage they get in the end.
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You´re going a bit off topic there. There a whole thread discussing that subject here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=501190&page=8
 
D

Dave Long

Banned
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ultron87

Member
Untalkative_Bunny said:
Dont know if this is thread worthy, so i'll put it here:

http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-hows-whys-and-dirty-secrets-of-review-game-embargoes-a-guide-to-what-it

Ben K. pretty much states that embargoes are good for you. Oh, except for the site with the first review, they're not so good sometimes.
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Well he more specifically says that they are good and useful for game reviewers. Which is generally true, since it lets them finish games and write reviews without racing at full speed ahead to have the "first" review on the net. For the general public he really just says that we should be mindful of what the timing of a review embargo can mean.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
ultron87 said:
Well he more specifically says that they are good and useful for game reviewers. Which is generally true, since it lets them finish games and write reviews without racing at full speed ahead to have the "first" review on the net. For the general public he really just says that we should be mindful of what the timing of a review embargo can mean.
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Which means better reviews for the readers, except for the very first review, sometimes, like I said.
 
R

rod furlong

Member
Untalkative_Bunny said:
Dont know if this is thread worthy, so i'll put it here:

http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-hows-whys-and-dirty-secrets-of-review-game-embargoes-a-guide-to-what-it

Ben K. pretty much states that embargoes are good for you. Oh, except for the site with the first review, they're not so good sometimes.
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I was a bit disappointed that this post didn't go into any particulars...Ubisoft's rolling Assassin's Creed 1 embargo + Ziff Davis blacklisting (although he may not have known about that), or examples of editorial sites supposedly strong-arming publishers.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
rod furlong said:
I was a bit disappointed that this post didn't go into any particulars...Ubisoft's rolling Assassin's Creed 1 embargo + Ziff Davis blacklisting (although he may not have known about that), or examples of editorial sites supposedly strong-arming publishers.
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It is a soft article, and that isnt surprising. Ben wants to stay in the community of game journos and he doesn't want to burn bridges to the game companies. Moreover, since he has built a decent career under the current system, why would he want to rock the boat.

The article highlights the opaque politics of game reviewing. Complicating matters further, and this isn't touched on in the article, is the fact that readers of game sites in general will savage critics who deviate from the norm. Quater to Three's review of Journey and the wall of hate it generated as well as Tom Chick's faq response were pretty interesting.

So, a reviewer is faced with angry readers looking for a reason to unload, PR massaging, and editorial demands. And reviewers are trying to satisfy all of them all the while trying to work their pov into a game somehow. Game reviewing isn't as simple as I thought it was.
 
D

Dave Long

Banned
The problem with the embargoes is that rarely do the people reviewing the game get the full experience because mutliplayer modes aren't available or don't have volume of players before launch.

Quality reviews really can only come after a week or so of availability, but gamers and publications want reviews BEFORE a game ships. How do you solve this? Answer... you can't... so you please the gamers with reviews that can't possibly take everything into account and are often rushed to be available the day a game ships.

Review it late, and no one cares.
 
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chalkitdown1

Member
Has this been posted?

Keighley responded the other day. Kinda.

keighleydoritosgateburis.jpg
 
M

MaxwellGT2000

Member
chalkitdown1 said:
Has this been posted?

Keighley responded the other day. Kinda.

keighleydoritosgateburis.jpg
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I would actually like to hear his comments... this will be most interesting, though I think he's going to attempt to dodge the bullet like he always does, watch Angry Joe as he interviewed him at the VGAs and got blown off asking the questions being asked by the public now...
 
O

Oxx

Member
The Gamers With Jobs podcast gets around to discussing 'games journalists' and ethics:

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/113768

From 1:12:09 to 1:18:35

Saying that videogame journalists are a lot better than in other sectors, no other industry is under the same amount of scrutiny, we are unrealistic for wanting better than we currently have etc.

I was surprised.
 
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snap0212

Member
Oxx said:
Saying that videogame journalists are a lot better than in other sectors, no other industry is under the same amount of scrutiny, we are unrealistic for wanting better than we currently have etc.

I was surprised.
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It's funny that it's basically the same excuse I used when I was 9 and failed a test in school.

"But mooooom, the other kids failed as well. The kid next door did even worse than me!"
 
L

Ledsen

Member
Oxx said:
The Gamers With Jobs podcast gets around to discussing 'games journalists' and ethics:

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/113768

From 1:12:09 to 1:18:35

Saying that videogame journalists are a lot better than in other sectors, no other industry is under the same amount of scrutiny, we are unrealistic for wanting better than we currently have etc.

I was surprised.
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I stopped listening to them a couple of years ago. This doesn't change my mind.
 
O

Oxx

Member
I mean they are probably right with a lot of what they said.

It is unrealistic to expect much when superficial sensationalism gets the most clicks and game publishers continue to be the main source of ad revenue.

And I'm sure the amount of corruption in medical and financial journalism makes the Doritopope look small time.

They were just very dismissive.
 
R

Rufus

Member
I get the impression they think a whole lot less of the profession than I do, though on the whole I'm not sure what they meant to say, exactly. Sounded like they were saying something to say something.

The historical perspective Zacny hinted at was strange, specifically what it implies for 'actual' journalism. Good journalism was just an outlier, be happy for what little of it you get nowadays? This is not the thread to talk about the role and importance of journalism in a democratic society of course, but, come on... Sounded like a whole lot of unreflected nihilism to me. Coming from Zacny, that's surprising. He does good work from what I've read and heard and appeared smarten than that suggests. Is this an academic "what happens, happens" attitude adopted by history majors (which I think he is)?

Still, better than the same "what were you eating at the time" joke One Life Left has been beating into the ground these last three episodes.
 
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Lime

Member
Oxx said:
The Gamers With Jobs podcast gets around to discussing 'games journalists' and ethics:

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/113768

From 1:12:09 to 1:18:35

Saying that videogame journalists are a lot better than in other sectors, no other industry is under the same amount of scrutiny, we are unrealistic for wanting better than we currently have etc.

I was surprised.
Click to expand...

I remember someone suggesting this podcast some way back as an example of "cerebral" video game discussion.
 
C

Coxy

Member
onlyindreams said:
Emily Rogers is terrible. No one should take her seriously after this shit
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No-one should have taken her seriously before this, she's lied and made shit up before and when I pressed one of the writers for not enough shaders on it he said what happened in the past has no effect on the quality of her articles now. lol
 
C

choaffable

Member
Lime said:
I remember someone suggesting this podcast some way back as an example of "cerebral" video game discussion.
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If you want cerebral and funny, check out Idle Thumbs. Actually, this week's episode is interesting. They have somebody from Kotaku on, and Remo is quick to call out the usual game journo bullshit in their quick talk about Far Cry 3. Every reviewer should have a Chris Remo in their head asking "What does objectively good even mean?" or "You mean to say this game is fun? Then you should just say this game is fun."
 
I

inky

Member
Ok, I just wanted to point something out and I'll be on my way. I do it here, because I know it is a thread Jason (from Kotaku) frequents. Spot the differences in headlines, approach, discussion, research and tone here:
D2h24.jpg


vQaGy.png
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...


I guess Jason likes to talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Dem high journalistic standards, right? Shameful.
 
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jschreier

Member
Explain to me what your problems are with my article, instead of just posting images and expecting everyone to think what you're thinking, and I'll be happy to address any of your complaints.

If you're wondering why I didn't contact Humble Bundle to ask why they partnered with THQ when they're supposed to be all about indies, that's because I don't really care. I have no problem with THQ running a Humble Bundle. The argument over whether they should or shouldn't be doing that is very boring to me.

Here's a much more interesting story I was reporting and working on today: http://kotaku.com/5964312/youtuber-i-was-banned-from-making-money-because-of-an-over+zealous-fan
 
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inky

Member
If you don't really care why the bait headline? Why write about it at all?

This can't even be considered an article, it is an article as much as tweets are. You don't care, but are full of sarcasm and are willing to take a jab at THQ. What's the purpose of it, if there is any? Informative only or do you really want to join a conversation about a topic you seemingly don't care about at all. Do you think your readers care?

I don't care about your other "more important" stories, I'm talking about this one you felt deserved a mention.
 
J

jschreier

Member
inky said:
If you don't really care why the bait headline? Why write about it at all?

This can't even be considered an article, it is an article as much as tweets are. You don't care, but are full of sarcasm and are willing to take a jab at THQ. What's the purpose? informative only or do you really want to join a conversation about a topic you seemingly don't care about at all.

I don't care about your other more important stories, I'm talking about this one.
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Because I wanted to inform readers about a good deal? Because THQ offering a Humble Bundle is interesting? Of course I care about the news; if I didn't care about it at all, I wouldn't have written anything. And I'm not really concerned with what you think "can't even be considered an article." Kotaku's news stories are sometimes short and sarcastic. If you don't like that style, you don't have to read us.

Now maybe I didn't explain myself well. What I don't care about is the conversation that Patrick decided to report on -- the conversation over whether Humble Bundle is only for indies. That's not interesting to me at all. Of course Patrick is entitled to write about it if he finds it interesting! I did not, so I wrote about the deal -- the part I find interesting -- and left it at that.

You'll notice that very few people in the comments are talking about whether Humble Bundle should only be for indies, because that's not what our readers care about. I prefer to spend my reporting time on more interesting things (such as the fascinating story about the YouTuber that is currently on our front page).
 
I

inky

Member
jschreier said:
Because I wanted to inform readers about a good deal? Because THQ offering a Humble Bundle is interesting? Of course I care about the news.
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Well, you really manage to explain why that is, give your perspective about it and add a lot to that conversation. You care about the news as long as you can write 2 lines about it and get a million clicks. That's the scope of it.

Gentleman Jack said:
Well at least Jason admits it's lazy, throwaway clickbait. Congratulations on the 32k hits.
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Pretty much, that was all I wanted people to notice. But then he comes here and pretends Kotaku is beyond that, and wonders why GAF talks about them the way they do. "Oh here, we write other stuff that is not like that at all".
 
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ultron87

Member
A site like Kotaku is going to have some stories that are short quick information bursts. That's their style that they've always done. And it has worked for them. To not have those stories would be to turn them into something they are not.
 
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Gentleman Jack

Member
inky said:
Pretty much, That was all I wanted people to notice. But then he comes here and pretend Kotaku is beyond that, and wonders why GAF talks about them the way they do.
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No real reason to pile on him unless you're genuinely trying to get his standards up rather than push his buttons.

I wish the news was better too but I haven't exactly been sharing the bundle on my social media sites so it can be fairly said I don't care much for the charity, let alone the image issues this presents for humblebundle. Klepek's doing a good job, though.
 
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inky

Member
Gentleman Jack said:
No real reason to pile on him unless you're genuinely trying to get his standards up rather than push his buttons.
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It wasn't my intention at all, so sorry if it seems that way. That is why I initially offered only the images in the first place. 2 different approaches to the same news, people take of that what they will. I'm out.

ultron87 said:
A site like Kotaku is going to have some stories that are short quick information bursts. That's their style that they've always done. And it has worked for them. To not have those stories would be to turn them into something they are not.
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True. Maybe I don't know because I rarely visit them, except when the odd piece is out and makes its way here.
 
2

28 Posts Later

Member
jschreier said:
If you don't like that style, you don't have to read us..
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This pretty much sums it up; I don't particularly like the story posted, but that's their style - cheap, forgettable news stories that focus on entertainment over all else. There's little point criticising them for it - it works, evidently as that story has gotten tens of thousands of hits - and despite all their pandering in this thread it's clearly not going to stop. You don't have to read their articles if you don't like the style.

Ultimately there's a difference between what we [as in GAF] consider to be 'bad' games journalism and what should be decreed as unacceptable [the Wainwright article]; and this story is merely incompetent, not corrupt. It's not really relevant in the same way Polygon deleting comments or copying PR articles was.
 
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jschreier

Member
Eh, I was enjoying posting in this thread, but it's started to occur to me that I can't win with you folks.

I try to show you the long, well-reported, interesting stories we do every day, but instead some of you just whine because of our shorter news articles or weird stories about Asian culture, both of which are an integral part of what Kotaku is (and one of the reasons we've become so big).

Kotaku is not a site that runs only longform stories every single day. We are not a trade site. We are not a site for straight industry news. If you want one of those, there are plenty. Gamasutra, Polygon, etc.

We are a site where writers have their own voices and their own approaches, and we all do a little bit of everything. Sometimes I write short, snarky news posts about THQ. Other times I write longer, originally-reported stories about mistreated YouTubers. Sometimes I write critical dissections of Persona 4! If you don't like that mix, Kotaku isn't for you.

I think we do excellent work every single day, and I think I've posted more than enough links to prove that. If you're going to just dismiss us because our shorter stories don't fit your ideal notion of what a Gaming Website Should Be, then I'm not going to fight you.
 
O

Orca

Member
jschreier said:
Because I wanted to inform readers about a good deal? Because THQ offering a Humble Bundle is interesting? Of course I care about the news; if I didn't care about it at all, I wouldn't have written anything. And I'm not really concerned with what you think "can't even be considered an article." Kotaku's news stories are sometimes short and sarcastic. If you don't like that style, you don't have to read us.

Now maybe I didn't explain myself well. What I don't care about is the conversation that Patrick decided to report on -- the conversation over whether Humble Bundle is only for indies. That's not interesting to me at all. Of course Patrick is entitled to write about it if he finds it interesting! I did not, so I wrote about the deal -- the part I find interesting -- and left it at that.

You'll notice that very few people in the comments are talking about whether Humble Bundle should only be for indies, because that's not what our readers care about. I prefer to spend my reporting time on more interesting things (such as the fascinating story about the YouTuber that is currently on our front page).
Click to expand...

If you didn't care about "the conversation" then why the snippy 'you're not indie' and 'at least they're good games' comments?
 
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