That's what I did! BSS meleed the hell out of them.
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Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"
- Thread starter Visualante2
- Start date
Mr.Monitor
Member
These are all of the words I don't want to hear when discussing a Souls game. I'll reserve judgement until there's more info and I have something tangible, but I didn't enjoy Friday's trailer, and I'm not liking what I'm reading here.
Didn't say that you couldn't, just that it's not easy (or smart, in my opinion)! I tried that the first time and succeeded, but only after dying for hours. On subsequent runs I found much better solutions.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I think the only real problems I had with Dark Souls the first time through were:
1. Framerate. On consoles this was inexcusably bad. Blighttown was far more difficult than it should have been thanks to this and the dart-blowers, who were also a bit of an extra pain since picking out the darts was a chore on a TV. Both of these problems are fixed (thanks Durante!) on the PC version.
2. Wrestling with the camera and lock-on system in the Ornstein and Smaugh fight. It could just be me, but I think the camera gets really squirrely in this fight thanks to the two independent bosses and the pillars everywhere. I feel like it got in the way of what was otherwise an intense fight.
3. Not knowing what the hell some things did, and not being able to experiment without grinding or wasting precious items. I had to check what kindling meant, because strictly looking at the information presented there is no way to deduce what it means ("kindling" a fire gives me more poultices? How? Why? How is the player supposed to deduce that?). I also had no idea what the eventual split between elemental and raw meant in crafting, and I was really reluctant to waste items to "experiment" with it, especially coming off of Demon's Souls, where the damn lizard crystals had taught me to be very careful with drops.
I received a review copy of Dark Souls about a week before it came out and had to play it entirely without wiki help, save for the documentation that spelled out some of the more buried mechanics. I still would not mind a "more accessible" Dark Souls II if they simply mean making getting into the game easier. You can make something easy to understand and hard to do. Heck, that's what makes most of Dark Souls so good in the first place.
1. Framerate. On consoles this was inexcusably bad. Blighttown was far more difficult than it should have been thanks to this and the dart-blowers, who were also a bit of an extra pain since picking out the darts was a chore on a TV. Both of these problems are fixed (thanks Durante!) on the PC version.
2. Wrestling with the camera and lock-on system in the Ornstein and Smaugh fight. It could just be me, but I think the camera gets really squirrely in this fight thanks to the two independent bosses and the pillars everywhere. I feel like it got in the way of what was otherwise an intense fight.
3. Not knowing what the hell some things did, and not being able to experiment without grinding or wasting precious items. I had to check what kindling meant, because strictly looking at the information presented there is no way to deduce what it means ("kindling" a fire gives me more poultices? How? Why? How is the player supposed to deduce that?). I also had no idea what the eventual split between elemental and raw meant in crafting, and I was really reluctant to waste items to "experiment" with it, especially coming off of Demon's Souls, where the damn lizard crystals had taught me to be very careful with drops.
I received a review copy of Dark Souls about a week before it came out and had to play it entirely without wiki help, save for the documentation that spelled out some of the more buried mechanics. I still would not mind a "more accessible" Dark Souls II if they simply mean making getting into the game easier. You can make something easy to understand and hard to do. Heck, that's what makes most of Dark Souls so good in the first place.
EatinOlives
Member
I think I'm the only person here who never really had any problem at all with Lost Izalith. In fact, I really enjoyed the aesthetic design they went for. Then again, I got there right off the heels of Demon Ruins, which absolutely IS objectively bad with the horrid enemy spam. After that, seeing a ton of those Mario Bros 3 Bowser Fire Statues in Lost Izalith wasn't as bad anymore.
As for the Dragon Butts, I ignored pretty much all of them. I never really thought I had to kill those.
As for the Dragon Butts, I ignored pretty much all of them. I never really thought I had to kill those.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Did you play post-patch, by any chance?
Were you supposed to killed them? I think I took one or two that were on the way, but that's all!
I'm pretty much the same. Apart from the horrid blur around the lava I didn't have any problems with the zone, it's only once I started reading forums that I discovered it was supposed to suck. The bed of chaos really sucks balls though.
EatinOlives
Member
Played the PC version, I guess that's a yes. Are they placed in different areas pre-patch?
Yeah, pre-patch they were real pricks. Still sort of wish there were more areas that aggro'ed them. But I am glad they made that more accessible.
XANDER CAGE
Member
They were a lot harder to avoid at one point. Like practically impossible.
EatinOlives
Member
Oh, that must've sucked. I only had to take out like two of them and each took quite a while.
Phonomezer
Banned
The worst things about Lost Izalith, and possibly Dark Souls, were:
a) Bed of Chaos
b) The grating and obnoxious sound footsteps made when walking on lava
Other than that, it was fine, if not a little lacking. Oh and all the cool people took the shortcut anyway.
a) Bed of Chaos
b) The grating and obnoxious sound footsteps made when walking on lava
Other than that, it was fine, if not a little lacking. Oh and all the cool people took the shortcut anyway.
I dunno, by the time I went into Lost Izalith I could kill pretty much everything, so my experience with it is quite different. I think I killed the dragon butts in three hits when I first fought them. I did die to the pits in The Bed of Chaos though, pretty hilariously. I was a bit sad that the boss didn't reset though, which I found odd. That boss fight was really wonky, and did feel more tacked on than the others, despite still making sense contextually (it was basically the puzzle boss of the game, but I'll admit that it wasn't as satisfying as The Dragon God in Demon's Souls).
Just as an example, on the little path from the first bonfire to the ramp that leads into Inner Izalith, there used to be three of those zombie legs that you had to clear first. Not even mentioning the hell that was just getting to the bonfire.
That said post-release pre-patch DkSouls was hilarious unbalanced - you could turn completely invincible with SMS, Iron Flesh let you tank everything, and the Crystal Ring Shield was hitting for 1k+. So the overall challenge wasn't any different, or perhaps even easier.
evil_ash_xero
Banned
This is weird. I mean, "accessible" could mean a lot of things. The DLC had VERY difficult bosses. Harder than the main game's bosses, for the most part.
So, I have to keep the faith that the difficulty won't be fudged with too much. I guess they could make the menus and stuff easier to understand. Maybe give you a map or whatever.
They're going to have to walk a fine line here.
So, I have to keep the faith that the difficulty won't be fudged with too much. I guess they could make the menus and stuff easier to understand. Maybe give you a map or whatever.
They're going to have to walk a fine line here.
Lost Izalith honestly just needed more/better enemies (a lot less retarded statues) and placements, a better boss and needed to be a bit bigger. Then it would have been fine. I just hope Dark Souls 2 doesn't have any rushed areas like Demon Ruis/Izalith. But given more time these could have been great, so sort of a dropped ball on the PC Edition.
I hope for all our sakes that you're right. I really, really hope that Namco doesn't screw this up (because I rather doubt From has nearly the amount of collusive power everyone's giving them in this relationship).
bigdaddygamebot
Member
Most developers tend to dramatically fuck things up when they use buzz words like "accessibility"...so there's plenty of reason to be alarmed about what they might intend by that.
When a significant part of the appeal about Dark Souls is the fact that it doesn't hold your hand and expects you to "keep up"...improving accessibility could very well impact the game in a negative fashion.
Fucking "cool guys" getting bothered over "fucking gamers" getting bothered.
Phonomezer
Banned
us gamers
evil_ash_xero
Banned
I'm most concerned about Miyazaki not directing. Sometimes you have great sequels done by other directors...sometimes you don't.
I mean, From doesn't have any other games I like besides the Souls games. So, I don't know what to expect by another director taking over.
I mean, From doesn't have any other games I like besides the Souls games. So, I don't know what to expect by another director taking over.
My biggest concern with the fact he's not directing is not that somebody else couldn't do a as good or better job, but why he all of a sudden is stepping aside?
Why would he do that, he seemed so passionate from his interviews? Could it be he's unhappy with the direction that Namco seems to want to fund, and doesn't want to be holding the bag? Could it be he just had a lot of his own ideas for a new Souls that Namco shot down, so he stepped aside (or was told he had to by From staff or Bamco). Pure baseless speculation of course, but we've seen it happen far too often. Miyazaki from the passion and vision he had, wouldn't seem to just be cool with stepping aside if something wasn't up.
I'd be interested to hear from Miyazaki on this "new director" development.
I'd like to think that he got his way and From now has a team working on a new King's Field.
vikingvessel
Member
One of the greatest feelings of Souls relief was overcoming them the first time. When you finally make it around that corner you do not want to do anything that would jeopardize what you have just accomplished. Without an ample cool down period, I was concerned that I would never be able to do it again. You cannot completely savor it until you discover that safety is in striking distance. The following times through it was more like I cannot believe I screwed that up if it took more than once. Until you crack the code, you feel you are up against the impossible.
That or he is working on something else.
Yeah, no doubt. It's awesome!
Please put your acceptability where the sun don't shine. Please.
Love that armour with the fur though. Another case of outstanding armour design.
Accessibility =/= easier. Super Meat Boy is one of the most accessible game out there, and its still one of the hardest. Making things easier to understand do not remove from the complexity of the game. It simply mean, better UI, better Menus and less "Okay where the fuck do I go to do this".
Seriously though, a minimap would destroy the game, i don't think they'd be such idiots.
The problem behind "chasing" big audiences is that your modest popularity comes exactly from your ability to fit in a precise niche, not from your pretty face.
The moment you chase another audience you grow out of that niche and fall flat on your face, we've seen this happen far too many times this gen.
They will never get the Elder Scroll popularity, because they are completely different games with completely different selling points and already TeS "sold out" on a lot of its pecuiliarities.
BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!
Member
No it obviously means making the game shittier even though we don't even have in-game screenshots yet. </gafmode>
Yeah but Dark Souls and SMB bank on different types of difficulty and the one from DS involves some level of crypticness, too.
You are supposed to miss (a lot of) stuff during your NG playthrough, since that is exactly what makes your NG+ and NG++ and NG+++ so interesting and different, almost another game.
You don't get that in a more straight forward experience like Dragon's Dogma, although it does try something similar.
They didnt say it will be a linear experience, they said it would be more accessible. They know that the game is popular because its hard, removing the difficulty of the game would remove the fun, and thus the popularity. Making menus easier to read, and maybe adding a "easy" difficulty. But I dont think they will remove anything from the game.
IrishNinja
Member
oh god
still better than the easy mode suggestions though - i dont even know how servers would work with that, for one
Keeping the game "hard" can really mean anything.
More accessibility can also mean anything, depending what they change, but i'm saying that some of that unintelligible-ness, was part of the charm AND greatness of the game's flow.
I said before that the game could use some tweaking in the descriptions, for example, but it's mere tweaking i'm talking about.
Great Hollow, Painted World, Undead Asylum redux etc, were meant not to be found on a first playthrough and it's NOT something i'd want "fixed" for example, just to have a more straight forward approach.
The same applies to the story, where you don't have long on the nose dialogues to guide you through what ahppen, that added to the whole atmosphere and flow of the game, too.
An easy mode is actually easier to implement than more accessibility that can fuck up the pacing and the whole atmosphere.
examples:
-Buffed pyro glove (that was overpowered) that you can't bring with yourself when invading.
-Covenant that doesn't allow for invasions (on your part and the invaders') but does allow for summons.
-More humanity drop-rate with a certain "newbie" gift.
and so on.
Dark Souls already had an easy mode, but it wasn't outlined, and it was:
Pyromancer + MasterKey starting class, Way of the White covenant (that limits invasions, AFAIK).
Sorry for the DP.
The Xtortionist
Member
Dark Souls' HUD already takes up too much space for a minimap so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
That said, I wouldn't be against a map if it was on a separate screen and worked Metroid Prime style where optional hints would indicate the end destination but leave players to figure out how to fill in the space inbetween. That way purists could ignore it altogether and new players wouldn't feel hopelessly lost, but would still be required to explore.
Besides that, I feel maps are good in general for people who put the game down for whatever reason and start playing it again after a period of time.
CielTynave
Member
I wouldn't mind a map as long as it started out blank and the player had to explore for anything to actually show up on it.
The King's Field games had completely static maps you could buy from merchants. There generally weren't any marked waypoints, just an outline of one specific area. While maps like that wouldn't make sense for every area in Dark Souls, they could definitely be added without ruining the game.
As long as they don't give away secret passages, like the Great Hollow's.
I don't get such posts at all.
If you don't "have the time" to learn Demon's Souls/Dark Souls. If you are impatient. If you don't want to figure out enemy weaknesses/movements. If you rush into new areas and then complain that it's cheap that you died. THEN JUST DON'T BUY DEMON'S/DARK SOULS. It's that easy. The whole point of Demon's/Dark Souls is that you don't have a win button.
It's like people complaining that reading books is "hard" and they don't want to be bothered with it and ask for lots of pictures in books. Well, duh, just watch movies instead.
I think AssCreed series is way too easy with broken combat and bad controls. Do I complain about this and ask, if they could make it harder, add proper controls and an actual combat system? No, I understood that I'm not the target audience. The target audience is bad casual players that can't be bothered to do anything, but want to feel like they played a game. I bought the first 2. Both of them were shitty. I learned that. I don't buy them anymore. But it's the perfect game for such people. Just buy those instead.
Dat obnoxiousness.
Comments like this make me not take you seriously. In the upgrade menu it tells you exactly what happens before you confirm the upgrade. Lots of complaints about dark souls inaccessibility are just like this. Someone will say that they don't know what to do at the start and get killed over and over by the ghosts. But the very first NPC in firelink tells you exactly where to go. Very nearly everything in the game has something explaining it or pointing the way to go, you just have to actually stop and pay attention. And the things that really are cryptic are intentionally so because they are secrets!
MidnightCowboy
Member
If difficulty levels are implemented without sacrificing the normal mode, I don't see what the big deal is. Obviously if it was like Evilore outlined earlier, where the easy mode is the primary focus instead of the other way around, that's a problem. But I don't understand the rationale behind being against difficulty levels without first seeing how they are implemented. It just comes off as purist whiny bullshit.
Phonomezer
Banned
Where's the appeal in an easy Souls game? People play them because they like a challenge, they'd be sitting on a forum whining about wanting an easy mode if they didn't.
MidnightCowboy
Member
Certainly there is no appeal for you, that is clear. But as many have echoed, not just in this thread but all across the internet, there is an appeal for an easier game. The world and art are interesting, the soul mechanics are interesting, the combat is fun, all of that sounds like an appealing game to me. There are people who play every shooter on the highest difficulty they can because they like the challenge. Do they complain about there being easier difficulties? More often than not, no. They just choose to ignore them.
One static difficulty puts everyone on the same playing field, and it's up to the individual to put up with it. Offering different difficulty levels will put players at all different ranges, effectively stagnating the entire community.
MidnightCowboy
Member
I'm not really sure what you are saying. How would the community become stagnant? Because people who aren't as good as the older generation of Souls players would be present?
Then let the people who want to experience a mediocre Souls game experience it. Maybe I'm just pro options. I never agreed with not allowing people to chat when playing the game either.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I like that you cherry picked one complaint I had on my initial run through Dark Souls as evidence that I shouldn't be taken seriously, as opposed to the praise I heaped on the design of the game elsewhere or the fact that I made it through without a guide - clearly, I'm imperceptive and dull.
I was talking about my first playthrough of the game and what stuck out to me as difficulty through obtuse explanation and translation, as opposed to the actual design of the game. I think that scratching my head over the crafting system is nowhere near as egregious as whining that the skeletons keep killing me because I'm going the wrong way or ignoring the NPC. Why even bring that up in bold anyway? Did I complain about the ghosts? You're preaching to the choir on that one.
There's a thin line between cryptic and annoying, and I personally found some things (pretty much just covenants , crafting, and kindling, really) to be more frustrating than interesting at first impression, and am therefore open to hearing about what "accessibility" changes might be coming before writing Dark Souls II off as a Dragon Age 2 situation.