They were probably in a hurry to get them out. Too busy to provide a superior authentic experience.
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So, about the Wii U 50hz VC...
- Thread starter Neff
- Start date
They were probably in a hurry to get them out. Too busy to provide a superior authentic experience.
When the "authentic experience" for us Europeans is an objectively worse experience with the same game to our cousins over the ocean, reminding us of our past when we were shat on by companies who couldn't be bothered to put the effort in, we don't care about or want that kind of authenticity. It sucked then, it sucks even more now, and that's the only thing that's important.
gingerbeardman
Member
I've just written to Nintendo
I hope they at least give guys the option, but that probably means extra ratings board submissions and licensing or censorship problems.
I'll copy and paste and send one for you. Don't forget the surveys as well.
In what way? PS1 and PS2 were horribly optimised for the most part. PS2 could output in NTSC, but very few games used it, especially compared to the DC's PAL60 mode.
Except - for whatever reason - that wasn't a problem on the 3DS; plus it's slightly unclear whether this content actually has to be officially rated in the first place (I recall a discussion on the subject previously, although I forget what the ultimate conclusion was).
It does strike me that it *ought* to be possible to strike a deal with the PEGI to at least cover the titles which only have superficial content changes between PAL and NTSC as a single product. That would help *immensely*.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7h9htbYDss being an excellent example. It was generally down to the developer, though, and many devs had cottoned on to it by then; Square were particularly bad, although I believe they sorted themselves out by KH2 or therabouts.
That's the thing, really. It's not the console manufacturer's fault, it's the dev who needs to put the work in. Many had figured it out by the PS2, but several had not.
One reason why the PS1 started to mark a sea change is the simple fact that it's much *easier* to make the timestep adjustment in a polygonal game than a sprite-based one, as I alluded to earlier; it's not the system as much as it is the whole design philosophy of that era.
Falcs
Banned
Wow wow wow... hang on a minute... Hang on a minute here... I just found this thread.
Lemme get this straight...
Are you telling me that most (if not all) of the games I grew up with on my PAL Master System, Megadrive, SNES, N64.... were all running 17% slower than they were originally intended????!!!
Lemme get this straight...
Are you telling me that most (if not all) of the games I grew up with on my PAL Master System, Megadrive, SNES, N64.... were all running 17% slower than they were originally intended????!!!
If they had widescreen-style borders on the top and bottom, then yes, they were.
Projectjustice
Banned
That sucks. Hopefully nintendo fixes these issue for you guys over in europe.
They have to send these games for a new rating anyway since they were all released before PEGI was a thing. Also I doubt a difference in Hz is enough to warrant a new rating for the games that have already been reviewed by PEGI. The content is the same.
I don't know. I thought maybe that was part of the reason. There's nothing inherently broken about running something at 50hz, it just gets broken if you key the animation to the frames. I thought maybe Sony just took the PC unlocked route where it meant 1 second = 1 second for PlayStation games.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
Except they're 60HZ on the Euro's 3DS VC
Also, it's a dumb assumption: ask even a casual if he prefers to play a slow ass game especially with fatass characters and huge black borders, in an era where people complain about cinemascope BRD/DVDs showing black borders on their widescreen TV, and see what the responses are... no chance they'll choose the latter 'cause that's how it was on their 'ole Super Nes.
Then you have the enthusiasts, where a vast majority (let's say 98%?) will always go for 60Hz.
Case in point for lazyness: Hanabi festival's imported games were in 60HZ for NES, Super NES amd N64 while in 50Hz for SMD (Genesis) and Neo-Geo.
1-D_FTW said:
What? It was quite the opposite, a depressing step back from the Dreamcast. PS1 was horribly optimized, and PS2 started getting better past half-cycle and later on even added progressive scan for a few title (afaik Sands of Time was the first game to offer the option to run in progressive scan). Iirc ICO was one of the first 1st party games to offer a 60Hz option. Either way I'll never forget the horror of seeing Devil May Cry 1 ran at a friend's house, with bloated Dante running like he was underwater) lucky me I had my PS2 modded so I wasn't forced to endure that pain with my US copy (PS2 was the first PAL console I've ever owned after the Sega Megadrive -tho the latter could be made to run Genesis and SMD JPN cartridges just by shaving off two tiny bits of plastic, so even at 14 I was happily playing imported NTSC goods)
Neff
Member
N64 had some decent optimisations. Goldeneye, Perfect Dark and Ocarina of Time were admirably close to the NTSC originals. Some PAL SNES games were sped up to match their NTSC counterparts, although they still had borders.
But the rest... Yes, lol.
I was once in the same boat. I went through a NES, Master System, Mega Drive and SNES blissfully unaware of the difference. Then one day my friend buys a US SNES and the horrible realisation dawns on me that he has a near-arcade game in his house and I have, well, this. And that, as they say, was that.
I can understand people supporting 50 Hz releases on VC. It's the same argument that's used in support of things like poor anime or game localizations from people's childhoods or altered soundtracks and the like.
As far as anime goes in the US, Dragon Ball Z comes to mind. There are a lot of supporters of Funimation's replacement soundtrack, even though with that music is not 'the way the show was meant to be heard'.
But personally, being someone who prefers to enjoy things how they were 'intended', in their original forms, I understand the plight of pro-60 Hz European players.
As far as anime goes in the US, Dragon Ball Z comes to mind. There are a lot of supporters of Funimation's replacement soundtrack, even though with that music is not 'the way the show was meant to be heard'.
But personally, being someone who prefers to enjoy things how they were 'intended', in their original forms, I understand the plight of pro-60 Hz European players.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Should I e-mail NOE customer services about my Wii U being broken because my copy of Balloon Fight is playing in slow motion compared to the 3DS one despite owning neither system? I'd like to see them simultaneously defend both versions being right.
Btw, didn't the shop used to say they were 60Hz only as well. I think a few people called NOE out on that being false advertising and the text vanished.
This is just going to get us 50Hz 3DS VC games, right?
I think its being authentic to sticking the cart into a system (once' you've made it fit). Its unnecessary and I guess M2 just did what they were told/how they interpreted NCL's requirements.
Btw, didn't the shop used to say they were 60Hz only as well. I think a few people called NOE out on that being false advertising and the text vanished.
As in on Miiverse? Could this be the start?
You may be joking but I worry this will actually happen...
Lynd7
Member
Yes, on Miiverse
I can't understand the argument that NOE is just faithfully recreating childhood memories. First, the video game market has expanded tremendously since the days of the NES - there are for more potential Wii U customers without those nostalgia goggles than with the nostalgia goggles.
Even for the people who liked the old games, you're treating your customers from over a decade ago like complete morons, who weren't aware then and are still unaware today that they were getting worse versions of those games. Did Nintendo think people who were treated poorly in the past would like to continue receiving poor treatment?
Last, it's not as if NOE is just blowing on the old NES cartridge and sticking it into the "Upload to eShop machine." Each title requires a brand new, custom emulator to be written. While Nintendo can strive for accuracy as much as they want, I never had a Home button on my NES to pull up a manual. They've decided that some upgrades are in order. Why not this one?
Even for the people who liked the old games, you're treating your customers from over a decade ago like complete morons, who weren't aware then and are still unaware today that they were getting worse versions of those games. Did Nintendo think people who were treated poorly in the past would like to continue receiving poor treatment?
Last, it's not as if NOE is just blowing on the old NES cartridge and sticking it into the "Upload to eShop machine." Each title requires a brand new, custom emulator to be written. While Nintendo can strive for accuracy as much as they want, I never had a Home button on my NES to pull up a manual. They've decided that some upgrades are in order. Why not this one?
Neon_Icarus
Member
I can still see the post. Some guy on Miiverse said that it's just a case of posts only appearing for a few days in the popular posts list.
Or at least that's what I hope.
Neon_Icarus
Member
NES games on the 3DS Virtual Console are 60hz. There really is no excuse.
Starwolf_UK
Member
I guess its more things like:
Conta > Probotector
River City Ransom > Street Gangs
And the occasional different title screen.
But those are more exceptions than rules and all have easy workarounds (editing ROMs isn't tough, in fact quite a few on VC have edits).
Lynd7
Member
Yeah, turns out after 4 days the popular posts are pushed off.
I posted this in the kotaku thread, but this article fails to see the problem too.
http://aussie-gamer.com/news/why-ar...lla/discussion/embed/?vanilla_discussion_id=0
I posted this in the kotaku thread, but this article fails to see the problem too.
http://aussie-gamer.com/news/why-ar...lla/discussion/embed/?vanilla_discussion_id=0
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
What an unbelievably idiotic article.
Lynd7
Member
Yep, I can't believe the amount of fail.
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
Ugh... This has to be the dumbest gaming related article I've ever seen. Gives even the usual suspects a run for their money...
This might be worse than the way Nintendo ties purchases to a single console as opposed to an account. I wouldn't buy a game either way so it works out!
edit: Oh god, this post is so old.
This is why we can't have nice things.
PedroPanache
Member
My favourite bit was how he claimed PAL games looked better and NTSC games ran faster, because I sure loved Final Fantasy VII with its huge borders and squashed sprites, yep, that looked so much better. The whole article is basically utter concentrated dirge from some Nintendo zealot who thinks its his duty to defend the companies honour (you're not alone). So, thanks for the article, Tynndand Muddele, consider Nintendo's honour restored throughout the internet and; job well done and I promise not to say anything bad about Nintendo.
I have to go now, I'm about to watch Star Wars on my shitty Betamax tape, because, you know nostalgia and all that, it's how I experienced it growing up. Somebody bought the blu-ray for me at Christmas, but it's just not the same without having to alter the tracking and those wavy lines every five minutes; the audio hisses like a jacked up snake on crack, but this is nostalgia baby, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Also because I'm a fucking idiot.
Well, the PAL *format* looks better, with higher resolution and much better colour definition. That much *is* true. The problem is the dud conversion.
D.Lo
Member
It's another example (like those claiming 50Hz changed the pitch of music in this thread) of people not understanding things technically and working on assumptions.
PAL TV programs look better, and PAL colours were always better, and this muppet has interpreted that as 'better picture'. But of course games designed for lower resolutions squashed and slowed do not.
Oh gawd the PS1 was the worst console ever for PAL conversions. Well, equal worst with the Master System and Megadrive. Basically just the worst conversions almost across the board.
PedroPanache
Member
Technically, yes, but, aesthetically speaking, games that aren't optimised for PAL don't look better at all, mainly because there are massive borders on the top on bottom of the screen and the graphics look squashed; the compromise removes the advantage of the superior PAL signal. So, yes, you're right in that technically the format is better than NTSC, but the article isn't intelligent or nuanced enough to make the distinction between that and poor PAL conversions. Instead the article throws out the blanket statement that PAL games look better because PAL is a superior signal than NTSC.
Haven't we already had official comment of the form "we want it to feel like the games did in the past"? Mind you, a more formal From A Spokesperson thing would be nice. So we have someone to mock *directly*.
Customer service reps say all kinds of things that aren't official company policy, I wouldn't put much weight on any private mail responses.
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
I did a huge mistake today and played the Ambassador Ballon Fight on my 3DS. I can't go back to the VC version on my Wii U now
gingerbeardman
Member
I'm going to keep posting 60Hz campaign messages at least until F-Zero is released. I'm hopeful.
Well, yes. They didn't want to spend money and time on doing it right, effectively. Somewhat akin to the 80's, where all these problems began because they didn't want to spend money and time on doing it right.
For all the talk of "A bad game is bad forever", they seem very reluctant to live up to that belief in *this* regard. You can put it right, Nintendo.
(Also, I'm sure it ought to be possible to negotiate a deal with PEGI to cover those situations where there are few *content* differences between the NTSC and PAL versions; that'd streamline things immensely.)
How can they then release 60Hz versions on the 3DS VC? For Ninja Gaiden (Shadow Warriors) and possibly others they just uploaded the NTSC rom.
That makes no sense considering there wasn't any age rating system in Germany when the originals came out.
GlamFM
Banned
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterhaltungssoftware_Selbstkontrolle
They can probably just use the old USK ratings.
biggersmaller
Banned
Defense of this baffles me.
There is a distinction between defending something and stating the reasons for something.
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
But outside of some exceptions (Contra/Probotector comes to mind), using the US rom wouldn't change any in-game content.
Though I'm not sure how picky USK or Pegi would be in this special case.
They are already using some NTSC roms; see Ninja Gaiden. And I suspect all the other 3DS VC games are also just NTSC versions. They have released a 60Hz version of Balloon Fight on 3DS so there's no reason for the 50Hz version on Wii U.
gingerbeardman
Member
If the argument for Wii U VC 50Hz is that they won't have to get them rated again, then how do you explain the same game on 3DS VC at 60Hz?