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So, about the Wii U 50hz VC...
- Thread starter Neff
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I think this is bait for a follow-up article. They're generating their own source of comments.
Neff
Member
All the Wii VC console games, bar the ones never originally released in the UK such as FFVI and Chrono Trigger, yes, are all 50hz. This includes Neo Geo as well, despite there probably only being around 3 people who ever bought a PAL 50hz Neo Geo.
The arcade games are all 60hz as far as I know.
Watching the F-Zero side-by-side video over at Eurogamer makes me realize how bad Euro gaf had it. That's terrible. Absolutely terrible. I guess I should have known it was keyed to frames and would cause games to run slowly, but I always just assumed they weren't as fluid. Not that they literally ran slower.
Luckily the DKC games aren't affected in a negative way due to 50hz.
What sucks is that they removed them ):. Maybe so they can manage to fuck them up somehow for PAL gamers
Ein Bear
Member
Luckily the DKC games aren't affected in a negative way due to 50hz.
What sucks is that they removed them ):. Maybe so they can manage to fuck them up somehow for PAL gamers
You joke, but I remember hearing that Mega Drive games that were never released in Europe and put on the service as imports were actually modified to run at 50hz.
Edit: Here we go:
I'd feel bad, but no one seemed to think that 50Hz PAL televisions would lead to an interoperability nightmare like this in the future when NTSC was the original standard that came before PAL. So really, this is your parents' fault, Europeans. As long as PAL-only TVs exist in Europe and PAL is still the implemented broadcast method, this will not change.
Try finding a PAL TV that doesn't at least support PAL-60, I'm sure the majority even supports NTSC mode. Shit my old fat widescreen supports NTSC signals. (I tried NTSC mode with with SMT: Lucifer's Call, worked like a charm)
Ein Bear
Member
Running 60hz content on any TV made in the last 15 or so years isn't a problem at all. And really, it was perfectly possible to make these games run at full speed/full screen at 50hz back in the day, it just would have required extra work that developers were too lazy to do.
I have to say, it's kind of a dick move when people who are unaffected by the issue are telling us that we should just stop complaining and accept it. I'd like to see how you felt if it was PAL games that ran properly, and the US Virtual Console service that was gimped.
History is what it is. I don't disagree that things should be a better way, but I think we can all agree that there should not have been divergent television standards in the first place.
I am glad to see that PAL-60 has picked up in popularity since my last research into PAL TVs back in 1996. Only took HOW many years to fix that major oversight?
And I wouldn't call not implementing "unfeasible code changes" a matter of devs being lazy.
Wikipedia said:
But with all that said, I don't think you should give up the fight for proper 60Hz VC games, but let's be quite clear that this should never have been an issue in the first place. Instead of just stomping feet and demanding, ask what would be involved in making the change happen and, with an informed position on the matter and assuming there is no sacrifice involved to get what you're after, take the fight where it needs to go.
Simply bemoaning being part of the PAL region and casting blame on others without ever having a dialogue about it is fruitless.
What you are writing is absurd. PAL was invented in the 1960s for broadcast, and is a much better standard for colour television transmission than NTSC - a PAL signal is much more robust and has more lines. Whether NTSC was "the original standard" or not is completely irrelevant, and the fact that video game manufacturers didn't code properly for a major signal format is completely their fault. 50Hz/60Hz is a factor of differing power systems: Do you want us to change the history of how the world was electrified as well? Why is this at all relevant?
Yes, why didn't our parents demand a much inferior broadcasting standard to be implemented? Couldn't they foresee video game manufacturers doing crappy conversions 20 years later? *irony* PAL is also displayed at 50Hz by design, this was not "an oversight".
It is a very big deal, and it's all in Nintendo's power to fix it.
Ein Bear
Member
I'm sorry, but your entire point just seems to be "It's your own fault for not doing things the same way as WE do them", which is ridiculous. PAL isn't a wrong format, it's just a different one - with it's own advantages and disadvantages.
And really, unless you can find a firmer source than a vague mention of "unfeasible code changes" on Wikipedia, I'm standing by the fact that it was perfectly possible to get a game running properly on a PAL system. The SNES Donkey Kong Country games, for example, ran identically in Europe to how they did in the US, despite one version being 50hz and the other 60hz. There are a handful of 50hz Virtual Console titles which have been amended to run at full speed, without borders too.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
I'm not even European and it is completely mind-blowing that there are people on GAF that would rather play the 50hz versions of old games. You people seriously don't like your games to work properly?
Neff
Member
sakipon
Member
I understand it might be more familiar to some. Like some people may prefer a censored or cut version of a movie if that's what they've always used to watch.
Palette Swap
Member
Once again, the biggest irony here is that Nintendo themselves released PAL 60 only retail games (well, at least one, MP2).
Pretty much, like there used to be Pan&Scan defenders who preferred having their movies cropped to fill the screen.
Ashler
Member
People unable to make out the difference of 50Hz vs 60Hz games, or actually prefer the games running at 50Hz blows my mind.
I'm European, played all games at 50Hz during my childhood, and having tried the 60Hz versions of these games is like night vs day. There is huge difference between them, its almost like playing a game at half of the frame rate sometimes.
I'm European, played all games at 50Hz during my childhood, and having tried the 60Hz versions of these games is like night vs day. There is huge difference between them, its almost like playing a game at half of the frame rate sometimes.
Probably the same morons who think the human eye can't see 60FPS.
Kontergurke
Member
Just to clarify, most of the later PAL NES games were adjusted so that the music would run at the same speed as the NTSC versions. That's why Super Mario Bros 3 or Mega Man 3 for example had exactly the same music in Europe and the US (while still having slower gameplay).
As for the music of the orignial Super Mario Bros, the European version is actually the one that runs too fast. Because they realized the game ran slower than the original, they just sped up everything including the music. Which makes SMB1 one of the only PAL games where the gameplay is acutally the same speed as the NTSC version but the music is faster!
Here's a comparison of both versions of SMB running on an emulator, but I have the original on a cart at home (it's the 3-in-1 cartridge with Tetris and World Cup) and I can confirm the PAL version's music is too fast.
Oh, and about Mega Man 3: Usually, whenever Proto Man arrives in the game, you hear a short 5-notes melody (see here). But in the European version, the song goes on longer and plays about 8 notes before cutting off abruptly (skip to 0:40 in this video to hear for yourself). This is of course because the timing was not adjusted for the slower PAL version.
Dion Blaster
Member
How come in Mario games the timer isn't in seconds. It seems like it's 50% faster.
(In USA)
(In USA)
*Looks at post history*
You Nintendo fanboys don't need to defend your corporation every time you know? You clearly don't know shit about the issue for calling it a no big deal. But you probably won't come again to post like your friend before.
Black borders and a 17% reduction of speed, people who can't notice how big the difference is should go to a doctor to get their eyes checked.
It's getting a bit annoying now. I've got Balloon Fight and I'll probably get the rest of the 30p games hoping they'll get patched (and because they're 30p, can't really complain too hard).
But no way will I get the full-priced ones at this rate. Nintendo seem to be listening as of late, I hope this is the case here since even us early adopters are banging on about it on Miiverse.
F-Zero not running at 60Hz will be a crying shame.
But no way will I get the full-priced ones at this rate. Nintendo seem to be listening as of late, I hope this is the case here since even us early adopters are banging on about it on Miiverse.
F-Zero not running at 60Hz will be a crying shame.
I'm French and remember learning about the horrors of 50hz vs 60hz more than ten years ago. The problem was already there for a long time by then and I can't fucking believe we still have to deal with that legacy in 2013...
PS2 era was probably the worst for me, as it was the gen I jumped the most between PAL and NTSC releases, sometime playing both versions of a same game (games like FFX or KH, ugh...)
I remember something pretty funny happening with the Digital Devil Saga duology: first game was released in unoptimized 50hz only, while DDS2 had a PAL/NTSC selector on bootup. Upon playing DDS 2, I realized how wrong DDS1 PAL release was and was never able to go back to it.
PS2 era was probably the worst for me, as it was the gen I jumped the most between PAL and NTSC releases, sometime playing both versions of a same game (games like FFX or KH, ugh...)
I remember something pretty funny happening with the Digital Devil Saga duology: first game was released in unoptimized 50hz only, while DDS2 had a PAL/NTSC selector on bootup. Upon playing DDS 2, I realized how wrong DDS1 PAL release was and was never able to go back to it.
Regarding the "unfeasible code changes" - the reason they were unfeasible in the past was not for a technical reason but due to the fact that they did not have the infrastructure in place to do it right. The easiest method was to plan for both rates at the start of development, but also it was quite possible to adjust the timestep to make - effectively - more time elapse in gametime per frame. That said, sprites are a difficulty; with polygons it's completely trivial to find the interpolated versions whereas sprites are effectively a series of discrete images of the object at a given time interval.
Ikaruga on Gamecube had a reasonable solution to that issue; it simply omitted every sixth frame. Noticeable if you're looking for it, not quite perfect, but much more acceptable.
Given that DKC was made up of sprites that were 2D renders of 3D models, I wonder if Rare went to the extent of making a different set of renders with a different timestep for the PAL versions.
All that said, I still struggle to see any technical issues with offering us the US versions as a choice. Possibly some business ones, though.
Ikaruga on Gamecube had a reasonable solution to that issue; it simply omitted every sixth frame. Noticeable if you're looking for it, not quite perfect, but much more acceptable.
Given that DKC was made up of sprites that were 2D renders of 3D models, I wonder if Rare went to the extent of making a different set of renders with a different timestep for the PAL versions.
All that said, I still struggle to see any technical issues with offering us the US versions as a choice. Possibly some business ones, though.
PedroPanache
Member
Try reading up on the subject and then you ca......oh wait, you have a Bowser avatar. Quick, head on over to the bloom topic, Wind Waker HD needs you.
The whole point of Virtual Console is to be as faithful as possible to the actual releases. For better or worse.
I forgot about early PS2 being bad. I bought one later on after the GameCube was dying a slow death and bought Devil May Cry because I heard it was meant to be fun.
Good Gracious Gravy is it slow. Anyone familiar with how it's meant to look just watch this for 50Hz slowness.
Good Gracious Gravy is it slow. Anyone familiar with how it's meant to look just watch this for 50Hz slowness.
If the original releases were gimped because of a technological hurdle that was there and is no longer present for the majority then it's a dumb decision. They need to be told it's dumb. They have been responding well lately to it.
I'd love to know the answer to this. Not sure if they just slowed the game engine down for the 60Hz market after making the game for 50Hz being a British developer. Can't see them releasing an inferior port to bigger markets, mind you.
The catch-22 is that the PAL versions are in themselves not faithful to the actual game
I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that is the business decision behind it. They want some one in PAL regions to experience Super Mario World just like they stuck a PAL SMW cart into a PAL SNES.
Lynd7
Member
Exactly, the PAL versions are not the true originals, so should not be used at all anymore.
KennyLinder
Member
I think it's based on how the timing is done. When I was at Codemasters we never supported PAL60 because we didn't need to, the games ran exactly the same. It was fully optimised for PAL. Some games are not; PGR1 is one of them, where it is literally impossible to get Platinum awards on some tracks at PAL50hz because of the timer. Also, Rallisport Challenge 2 at 50hz was FUCKED, timings were way out as the game clock was based on the refresh rate which is the wrong way of doing it.
I can't speak directly for Rare, but I have done international development in Europe, and it was standard practice for us to develop with 60hz in mind first - in general, that is what the pub wanted to see. We just also always coded with the alternate timestep in mind from the outset.
And that is why I'll stick with my PAL cartridge. If they finally offer a better product (60Hz) I may be willing to buy.
A friend just booted up Mega Man 2 on the Wii and holy crap, that game is WAY slower than I see on videos.
Also, I remember Iwata mentioning something about the Wii U virtual console, transferring games over from the Wii to the Wii U and pay a minimal fee for a upgraded version or something. Maybe with a little hope, getting them upgraded to 60hz could be part of the package.
Also, I remember Iwata mentioning something about the Wii U virtual console, transferring games over from the Wii to the Wii U and pay a minimal fee for a upgraded version or something. Maybe with a little hope, getting them upgraded to 60hz could be part of the package.
GBA is a good point; the system runs at approximately 60hz so should be adequate on NTSC Wii U's but on PAL they'll have to bite the bullet and permit 60hz downloads... or do the Mega Drive import slowdown thing. The former is true to the original, the latter consistent with their other practices.
The game will be faithful to whatever way it came out on the GBA in that territory.
I'd hope so - indeed, I'd expect it - but I can't help but be wary after the import mega drive fiasco
Beyond eyes, the brain should be sending off fireworks anytime there's a counter on screen. 1 second = significantly longer is a total mindfuck.
EDIT: It also makes perfect sense why Sony was considered a savior and Europe Playstation country. This alone made them vastly superior to the competition. Assuming they corrected this issue, which I was under the assumption they somehow did.
This is pure conjecture - and rather unlikely, considering the 3DS Virtual Console.
But their motives don't matter anyway: We want proper 60Hz games.
Then why not just use one do it all emulator for every game? I would love for the option to download Japanese versions of VC games in the US for racing, but the reason VC games are accepted for racing and speedrunning is because Nintendo does everything possible to make the VC versions as faithful to the original release as possible. Framerate drops, graphical glitches, timing, it is all indistinguishable from the actual releases.
Why don't PAL 3DS VC games run at 50Hz if they want us to re-experience our gimped childhood?